Piotr Tendera's TSP Motors from Poland

[shockie]

Attached are 3 photos of the thrust-time curves of the new D20, E20, and F35 Mid-power motors from TSP in Poland owned and operated by Piotr Tendera. I asked him what propellant he was using and he stated:

Potassium perchlorate 78%
Phenolic resin 17%
Special additives 5% (catalysts

They are the same size as Estes 24mm motors I do believe. AT least the DE are. I don't know any specifics like the propellant weight in each motor, or what the casing or nozzle is made of but the nozzles look like pressed clay.

It's my understanding that these are being distributed by Klima in the EU and the UK. They are CE marked. And I assume that they contain less than 20 grams of propellant or they wouldn't be allowed to be sold in Germany. In Germany, if a rocket motor has more than 20 grams of propellant an explosives license in required to purchase and use. And you think regulation is bad here?

TSP has also been making FAI 10mm motors for years now for FAI Spacemodellng competition in the EU.

Piotr/TSP is also making those little, old and out-of-production motors for hand-launched jetex-type gliders and he's exploring the possibility of selling them here.

https://jetex.org/
so does anybody want to move to Europe with me?

 

[AeroTech]

41 N-sec would require 209.5 Isp from 20 grams propellant, might be difficult for a KP composition.

 

[shockie]

41 N-sec would require 209.5 Isp from 20 grams propellant, might be difficult for a KP composition.

I can only assume that the F motors aren't available in Germany.

 

[SolarYellow]

so does anybody want to move to Europe with me?

Most countries in Europe make California look like a paradise of freedom and personal liberty. Just sayin'.

Might be cheaper to set yourself up as a U.S. distributor for those motors.

 

[shockie]

Most countries in Europe make California look like a paradise of freedom and personal liberty. Just sayin'.

Might be cheaper to set yourself up as a U.S. distributor for those motors.

Freedom and personal liberty are in the mind of the beholder.

 

[prfesser]

Those are impressive motors! The thrust curves look like "cored endburners" (like Estes motor curves) so I assume that's what they are. Potassium perchlorate has some properties that make it difficult/touchy to tame for model rocketry. I seem to recall an ad in a rocketry magazine that described NCR(?) motors "coming soon" that contained potassium perchlorate. They were never actually brought to production.

 

[cwbullet]

Attached are 3 photos of the thrust-time curves of the new D20, E20, and F35 Mid-power motors from TSP in Poland owned and operated by Piotr Tendera. I asked him what propellant he was using and he stated:

Potassium perchlorate 78%
Phenolic resin 17%
Special additives 5% (catalysts

They are the same size as Estes 24mm motors I do believe. AT least the DE are. I don't know any specifics like the propellant weight in each motor, or what the casing or nozzle is made of but the nozzles look like pressed clay.

It's my understanding that these are being distributed by Klima in the EU and the UK. They are CE marked. And I assume that they contain less than 20 grams of propellant or they wouldn't be allowed to be sold in Germany. In Germany, if a rocket motor has more than 20 grams of propellant an explosives license in required to purchase and use. And you think regulation is bad here?

TSP has also been making FAI 10mm motors for years now for FAI Spacemodellng competition in the EU.

Piotr/TSP is also making those little, old and out-of-production motors for hand-launched jetex-type gliders and he's exploring the possibility of selling them here.

https://jetex.org/
so does anybody want to move to Europe with me?

I wish they were available in the US. I would definitely buy them.

 

[cls]

I think they must be intended for FAI competition rockets? Sure would be nice to get a legal supply to use in the USA.

 

[BEC]

Interesting that the ignitors appear to simply be a heavy-duty version of the way we used to start Estes motors long long ago: a coil of bare nichrome wire, held against the fuel grain. With wire that size, I wonder what the current requirements are.

 

[shockie]

Those are impressive motors! The thrust curves look like "cored endburners" (like Estes motor curves) so I assume that's what they are. Potassium perchlorate has some properties that make it difficult/touchy to tame for model rocketry. I seem to recall an ad in a rocketry magazine that described NCR(?) motors "coming soon" that contained potassium perchlorate. They were never actually brought to production.

The question now is are they granulated and pressed, cast or cast and pressed like Irv Waits composites.

 

[J Blatz]

Those are impressive motors! The thrust curves look like "cored endburners" (like Estes motor curves) so I assume that's what they are. Potassium perchlorate has some properties that make it difficult/touchy to tame for model rocketry. I seem to recall an ad in a rocketry magazine that described NCR(?) motors "coming soon" that contained potassium perchlorate. They were never actually brought to production.

Actually NCR did sell some of the KP motors for a very short time. They had a very unique pinkish flame from the potassium. I remember them well, used a couple in an old ACE kit and blew it to kingdom come

 

[Reinhard]

It's my understanding that these are being distributed by Klima in the EU and the UK. They are CE marked. And I assume that they contain less than 20 grams of propellant or they wouldn't be allowed to be sold in Germany. In Germany, if a rocket motor has more than 20 grams of propellant an explosives license in required to purchase and use. And you think regulation is bad here?

41 N-sec would require 209.5 Isp from 20 grams propellant, might be difficult for a KP composition.

The German limit was 20g in the past, but has been increased to 150g a couple of years ago and harmonized EU wide.

Reinhard

 

[Handeman]

Freedom and personal liberty are in the mind of the beholder.

and inversely proportional to the population density.

 

[James Duffy]

I think they must be intended for FAI competition rockets?

Perhaps; Piotr makes A impulse motors for FAI comp that are quite good. These D/E/F motors would be useful only in S7 Scale models, but many of the best Euro flyers go out of their way to acquire Aerotech motors for that event.

Euro motors are intriguing, but above B impulse Estes and Aerotech motors are FAR superior to anything sold in Europe.

 

[RalfB]

Ich kann nur vermuten, dass die F-Motoren in Deutschland nicht erhältlich sind.

Hello, the F motors are also available in Germany from spacerockettechnology.

 

[cls]

Euro motors are intriguing, but above B impulse Estes and Aerotech motors are FAR superior to anything sold in Europe.

thanks. my point was, the US FAI teams need realistic practice. Can we use Estes and Aerotech in FAI in EU?

 

[shockie]

thanks. my point was, the US FAI teams need realistic practice. Can we use Estes and Aerotech in FAI in EU?

AT motors are used in S8E rocket gliders and are considered the best. Estes motors are no competition to the various home grown diy tabletop garage and basement made FAI motors in A class events.

 

[James Duffy]

Can we use Estes and Aerotech in FAI in EU?

Yes. Products from these companies are best-in-class for Scale, Scale Altitude, and RC Rocket Glider. The TSP motors are poor choices for these events. The question is probably academic, and CE certification is only part of the challenge as UN transport certification is far more of an obstacle. Without this critical certification the motors can't be shipped many places, and that particular certification is really expensive.

As Terry notes above, the Euro motors are preferred for the remaining duration (parachute, BG, helicopter, and streamer) and altitude events. Estes motors can be competitive against the Euro motors in parachute duration if you're really good at picking at the right thermal.

This year's World Championships in Texas will use Estes and Aerotech motors exclusively, as these are the only motors that are legal for transport and use in the US (and most of the remaining world, frankly).

 

[Sierrafox]

I think they must be intended for FAI competition rockets? Sure would be nice to get a legal supply to use in the USA.

They have been made expressely for general use in mid-power rockets. Their size has been chosen to be compatible with Estes large motors and Aerotech SU, in the same rockets. Of course they can be used in FAI scale competitions...

 

[Sierrafox]

Interesting that the ignitors appear to simply be a heavy-duty version of the way we used to start Estes motors long long ago: a coil of bare nichrome wire, held against the fuel grain. With wire that size, I wonder what the current requirements are.

It's not actually nichrome but they work exactly as the old fashion igniters. Very cool, no pyro, regulation-free (which is a real benefit in EU) and effective. They even don't destroy after ignition... I am not saying they can be always used more than once, but it is possible...
They require 1.5 A at 9 V.

 

[Sierrafox]

It's my understanding that these are being distributed by Klima in the EU and the UK. They are CE marked. And I assume that they contain less than 20 grams of propellant or they wouldn't be allowed to be sold in Germany. In Germany, if a rocket motor has more than 20 grams of propellant an explosives license in required to purchase and use. And you think regulation is bad here?

Actually, Klima sells only the low-thrust, longburn TSP motors. Those intended to replace Jetex in rocket-propelled free-flight gliders. TSP motors are sold by some EU resellers. To be honest, they came out after much talking between me and Piotr, as I was looking for an EU source of compatible mid-power engines. I asked him to develop his motors taking the "western" market into consideration, as they tend to use metric size in Estern Europe (20 mm, 35 mm,...) We don't have Estes large motors, and Aerotech supply in EU has some difficulties, not to mention the prices obviously high due to import costs.
Speaking of regulations, these motors falls within the limits of P1 category, which basically means no licences and permits of any kind (use, sell, buy, transport, stocking,...), up to 150 g of NEQ. This is an EU rule so it is in place in all EU countries.

 

[Sierrafox]

41 N-sec would require 209.5 Isp from 20 grams propellant, might be difficult for a KP composition.

These TSP motors have 19 Ns (D), 36 Ns (E) and 65 Ns (F). They have an ISP of 145s so the E20 with 27 g of propellant has an Itot of 40 Ns, a full E.
The D20 has exactly the same size of a D12 but 67% more power, and it is a full D.
The F is a mid-F very good for many mid-power rocket kits.

 

[Sierrafox]

Yes. Products from these companies are best-in-class for Scale, Scale Altitude, and RC Rocket Glider. The TSP motors are poor choices for these events. The question is probably academic, and CE certification is only part of the challenge as UN transport certification is far more of an obstacle. Without this critical certification the motors can't be shipped many places, and that particular certification is really expensive.

As Terry notes above, the Euro motors are preferred for the remaining duration (parachute, BG, helicopter, and streamer) and altitude events. Estes motors can be competitive against the Euro motors in parachute duration if you're really good at picking at the right thermal.

This year's World Championships in Texas will use Estes and Aerotech motors exclusively, as these are the only motors that are legal for transport and use in the US (and most of the remaining world, frankly).

TSP motors have CE and UN (1.4S - UN0432 the same as Estes) but they should be certified in US to be sold there. Once certified, the transport would not be a problem, just like Estes (and others, of course).

Eastern Europe motors have always been the best for FAI, however, as they are small, light and precise. I attended many FAI competitions and talked with many competitors and they all say Estes are not competitive in those parachute duration and streamer duration competitions because of size and weight. You know, those rockets weighs in at a few grams... Maybe in gliders, but I doubt as I have used such motors with "exotic" classification like E4 or 3/4D4 in my RC rocket glider, with an incredibly long burntime.

But EU motors have different size and they are manufactured by very small "companies". There is not enough capacity to make them in large quantities and these small manufacturer do not have the financial strength to afford a certification for them all, to sell them in US or anywhere else. This is a pity as they make really good motors that could be used together with the existing big names, to increase the number of different rocket types and enjoy this hobby of us even more...

 

[Gus]

Sierrafox,

Thanks so much for the very detailed information. I was unaware of the EU specific regulations. Are model rocket motors allowed to be shipped by air in the EU? Can you legally ship TSP motors to any EU country?

 

[cls]

very interesting, thanks!

 

[Sierrafox]

Sierrafox,

Thanks so much for the very detailed information. I was unaware of the EU specific regulations. Are model rocket motors allowed to be shipped by air in the EU? Can you legally ship TSP motors to any EU country?

Hi Gus,
as long as they are classified 1.4S for transport they can be shipped by air on a passenger plane, although we prefer ground shipping as it is far easier and cheaper. This is a worldwide rule, however. 1.4C (Estes E and F, for example) are cargo airplanes only. As long as the shipping regulations are followed, nothing is actually "forbidden" (almost, never tried to ship dynamite ), only regulated. P1 pyrotechnics (like Estes, Klima, TSP, many Aerotech, ... ) can be shipped under a partial ADR exemption, in unlimited quantities on standard vehicles without any sign.

 

[Raketenolli]

Euro motors are intriguing, but above B impulse Estes and Aerotech motors are FAR superior to anything sold in Europe.

I don't think this statement is true as it stands, regardless of competition purposes or for general model rocketry. Klima has some very nice motors like a full D in the standard 18/70 size (Estes A/B/C) and also long burners like C2 and D3 in the same size. And they are cheaper in Germany than equivalent Estes motors in the US ... Reliability may be an issue, but personally I've never had any problems with Estes, Klima, TSP, more obscure 40-year old Eastern European motors. The "worst" motors are old (>10 years) Aerotechs, which are quite common in Europe unfortunately.

I do get the impression that if European motors like Klima or TSP are 1.4S, they can be shipped to the US pretty easily and as long as they are below 62.5 g (which they all are) they are not Hazmat either, and would "only" require NAR certification? I must be missing something, that sounds too easy.

Oliver

 

[shockie]

Actually, Klima sells only the low-thrust, longburn TSP motors. Those intended to replace Jetex in rocket-propelled free-flight gliders. TSP motors are sold by some EU resellers. To be honest, they came out after much talking between me and Piotr, as I was looking for an EU source of compatible mid-power engines. I asked him to develop his motors taking the "western" market into consideration, as they tend to use metric size in Estern Europe (20 mm, 35 mm,...) We don't have Estes large motors, and Aerotech supply in EU has some difficulties, not to mention the prices obviously high due to import costs.
Speaking of regulations, these motors falls within the limits of P1 category, which basically means no licences and permits of any kind (use, sell, buy, transport, stocking,...), up to 150 g of NEQ. This is an EU rule so it is in place in all EU countries.

Thanks for that knowledgeable information.

 

[shockie]

I don't think this statement is true as it stands, regardless of competition purposes or for general model rocketry. Klima has some very nice motors like a full D in the standard 18/70 size (Estes A/B/C) and also long burners like C2 and D3 in the same size. And they are cheaper in Germany than equivalent Estes motors in the US ... Reliability may be an issue, but personally I've never had any problems with Estes, Klima, TSP, more obscure 40-year old Eastern European motors. The "worst" motors are old (>10 years) Aerotechs, which are quite common in Europe unfortunately.

I do get the impression that if European motors like Klima or TSP are 1.4S, they can be shipped to the US pretty easily and as long as they are below 62.5 g (which they all are) they are not Hazmat either, and would "only" require NAR certification? I must be missing something, that sounds too easy.

Oliver

They would have to undergo DOT explosives testing and receive an EX number. It's my understanding that DOT does not like and may not accept foreign testing. Perhaps that attitude has changed.
Testing per item is $8600 to 10k at 1 of the 4 authorized US testing labs.


To get a 1.4S designation in the EU, what tests are performed and who is doing the testing?

 

[shockie]

As far as the reliability of TSP and Klima motors; since 99.9999% of Americans have never had the opportunity to use either on a regular basis, how would a anybody here in the US know?

That comment is FUD. The TSP & Klima motors are the only CE marked motors native to the EU. Most other motors are DIY tabletop kitchen garage basement made motors that are only tested when they are first used at FAI competitions. They generally are not sold to the general public at large.

Here In America Estes and AT/Quest sell literally millions of rocket motors to non NAR and TRA members. You think they are filling out MESS forms to the NAR or TRA? In fact I'd say a high percentage of NAR & TRA don't even bother to self report.




I of course, could be totally wrong.