New Estes kit for 2023 - So Long #9722

[turbofireball]

Got this from my local hobby shop. Info on the new Estes kit #9722 - So Long. Due in early 2023. For those that are eagle-eyed, this was the kit sneak-previewed in one of the Estes NARCON presentations earlier this year.

 

[Back_at_it]

I like it but don't care for multiple stages so I'd probably build it as a single stage. Looks good.

 

[SolarYellow]

Interesting. MD 29mm. 1.21 inch OD matches BMS 29mm MMT size:

T52H-34

1.210x1.140x.035x34 29mm Motor Mount size

$5.00

The problem is, you can easily exceed that altitude with an AT 29/40-120 case single stage and reloads that you can have shipped to your house without hazmat. If I was going there, I'd build a much shorter rocket with a much shorter nose cone, because the Mach 0.6 or 0.7 that it's going to get to really wants an upscaled PNC-20B, not a needle. Even at the oblique angle in the image on the promo piece, it shows a fineness ratio of 6.8 when pulled into AutoCAD and just comparing the diameter and apparent length. An actual side view will probably be more like 8. That's just silly, and not best for performance.

But maybe this indicates they are actually getting 29mm motor production spooled up again.

 

[DigBaddy]

Ok, who's going to get one and do electronic staging with a H13ST in the sustainer?

I have no desire to go as high as this is supposed to go on a pair of F15s, but probably not a bad rocket to fly on all kinds of motors in one or two stage configs...

 

[5x7]

That is cool, must be a new nose cone for 29mm tubing!

 

[SolarYellow]

Ok, who's going to get one and do electronic staging with a H13ST in the sustainer?

I have no desire to go as high as this is supposed to go on a pair of F15s, but probably not a bad rocket to fly on all kinds of motors in one or two stage configs...

The H13 would be wasted with that long airframe made of heavy-wall MMT. Too much weight, too much drag.

 

[Back_at_it]

Looks like it would be a nice flier on a single F15 or even a E20.

 

[CalebJ]

The H13 would be wasted with that long airframe made of heavy-wall MMT. Too much weight, too much drag.

Unless I'm misreading - it's a minimum diameter 29mm 3FNC - why would there be any significant weight/drag?

 

[rharshberger]

Interesting. MD 29mm. 1.21 inch OD matches BMS 29mm MMT size:

T52H-34

1.210x1.140x.035x34 29mm Motor Mount size

$5.00

The problem is, you can easily exceed that altitude with an AT 29/40-120 case single stage and reloads that you can have shipped to your house without hazmat. If I was going there, I'd build a much shorter rocket with a much shorter nose cone, because the Mach 0.6 or 0.7 that it's going to get to really wants an upscaled PNC-20B, not a needle. Even at the oblique angle in the image on the promo piece, it shows a fineness ratio of 6.8 when pulled into AutoCAD and just comparing the diameter and apparent length. An actual side view will probably be more like 8. That's just silly, and not best for performance.

But maybe this indicates they are actually getting 29mm motor production spooled up again.

Paired with the ~E57 (iirc, and not official designation) as a booster that Estes has been messing with (I have seen the fired case and nozzle, it is/was in development last year) and a BP E or F in the sustainer and the name is very appropriate. The current booster motors from Estes usually make me very nervous when brought to the RSO table for preflight checks, especially E to E and F to F combos.

My guess is that we will also see a release of the new booster motor this year to go along with this kit at some point.

 

[DigBaddy]

Looks like it would be a nice flier on a single F15 or even a E20.

Heck, even a D12-5. maybe even a C11-3. E18, F24, F39, F20, F23....the list keeps going in the mind.

 

[DigBaddy]

Paired with the ~E57 (iirc, and not official designation) as a booster that Estes has been messing with (I have seen the fired case and nozzle, it is/was in development last year) and a BP E or F in the sustainer and the name is very appropriate. The current booster motors from Estes usually make me very nervous when brought to the RSO table for preflight checks, especially E to E and F to F combos.

My guess is that we will also see a release of the new booster motor this year to go along with this kit at some point.

Quick and dirty openrocket sim with something close to what the E57 might be thrust-wise, the F44...shows 3900' with a F15-8 sustainer and a speedy 23.9 m/s rail speed (5'). Yeah, F15-F15 is a bit sluggish (12.6/ms). E16-E16 is quicker off the line (14.3m/s)

 

[SolarYellow]

Unless I'm misreading - it's a minimum diameter 29mm 3FNC - why would there be any significant weight/drag?

My thinking around the H13 involves these parts:

https://www.apogeerockets.com/Build...er_Tubes/29mm_x_13_Body_Tube_Holds_FG_Engines
https://www.apogeerockets.com/Building_Supplies/Nose_Cones/Low_Mid_Power_Nose_Cones/PNC_29mm
(ETA: And I go back and forth between doing that for easiness and simplicity, and building a flying motor with fins glued directly on the case for an even smaller diameter and less weight.)

That long airframe made of standard heavy MMT is going to be a lot heavier, as well as a lot less efficient aerodynamically. With a low-thrust motor, the weight of the rocket is subtracted from the thrust of the motor before anything accelerates upward, so the apogee that can be reached with a slow-burn motor gets hammered if the rocket is heavy.

 

[PDawg]

The only Estes kit I'm interested in, but I'm not into Boosters so I'd single stage it. I may have to get one just to encourage them to keep making kits like this, especially since I like their F-15 motors. However, Isn't it basically an Apogee Aspire with a Booster stage? The Apogee is a lot less, made in USA, and can do 5000 ft with a F-10 Silver medalist.

 

[techrat]

Hrmmm..... So long! That's what you say to this kit when you actually send it to 3600 feet.... But here's my question. Common internet wisdom says you can't stage AP (composite) motors. But can you use it for the first stage?? In other words, could I use a NON-Black Powder motor for Stage 1, and have its ejection charge light a Black Powder motor on the second stage?? Has anyone done this successfully? Because if so, it seems possible to get this bird well past the projected altitude. I realize that there's a delay in the first stage before it lights the second. But let's assume the rocket continues to go UP during the delay.

 

[rharshberger]

Hrmmm..... So long! That's what you say to this kit when you actually send it to 3600 feet.... But here's my question. Common internet wisdom says you can't stage AP (composite) motors. But can you use it for the first stage?? In other words, could I use a NON-Black Powder motor for Stage 1, and have its ejection charge light a Black Powder motor on the second stage?? Has anyone done this successfully? Because if so, it seems possible to get this bird well past the projected altitude. I realize that there's a delay in the first stage before it lights the second. But let's assume the rocket continues to go UP during the delay.

Its possible using some old school quickmatch, or similar, the trick will be setting the whole thing up and getting the RSO to sign off on it.

 

[bad_idea]

Will be interested to see actual dimensions of the parts as shipped, but I'm inclined to think like @SolarYellow that the Apogee parts will be lighter and smaller OD.

Interesting to see a 29mm announcement when the 29mm motors have mostly been out of stock at Estes for months, and especially a two-stage given the F15-0 has been out of stock nearly everywhere for a long, long time. A friend and I have been planning to go halves on HAZMAT and build F15-0 to F15-N rockets if those booster motors ever come back into stock, preferably at AC Supply. I think we first talked about that back in July or so. Hasn't happened yet.

 

[rharshberger]

Will be interested to see actual dimensions of the parts as shipped, but I'm inclined to think like @SolarYellow that the Apogee parts will be lighter and smaller OD.

Interesting to see a 29mm announcement when the 29mm motors have mostly been out of stock at Estes for months, and especially a two-stage given the F15-0 has been out of stock nearly everywhere for a long, long time. A friend and I have been planning to go halves on HAZMAT and build F15-0 to F15-N rockets if those booster motors ever come back into stock, preferably at AC Supply. I think we first talked about that back in July or so. Hasn't happened yet.

Your user name is aptly done a F15 to F15 is most likely a bad idea, each F15 weighs 3.6 ozs so two of them is near 7.2ozs, leaving 13.8ozs for recovery and the rocket itself, leaving little room/payload for tracking or deployment if the delay is not long enough.

 

[bad_idea]

Your user name is aptly done a F15 to F15 is most likely a bad idea, each F15 weighs 3.6 ozs so two of them is near 7.2ozs, leaving 13.8ozs for recovery and the rocket itself, leaving little room/payload for tracking or deployment if the delay is not long enough.

It seems to be exactly what Estes are offering in the ad above, yet with heavier parts than I would use.

Still, I agree with you: it's a real challenge. If I don't think it can be done both successfully and safely, I won't do it. At this point I believe it can be done, with the Apogee tubes and cones (or a balsa cone), balsa or basswood fins, and a holographic bird-scare-ribbon streamer for both recovery and optical tracking of the sustainer (launching down-sun on a sunny day).

 

[BEC]

Your user name is aptly done a F15 to F15 is most likely a bad idea, each F15 weighs 3.6 ozs so two of them is near 7.2ozs, leaving 13.8ozs for recovery and the rocket itself, leaving little room/payload for tracking or deployment if the delay is not long enough.

I’m sure John Boren has flown this thing many times F15 to F15. I’m not going to guess how many sustainers were recovered, though. I expect it’s 29mm motor tube stock the full length and has a nice light blow-molded nose cone, and likely also the payload section base. Put an Eggfinder Mini in the payload section (and a MicroPeak or FS Mini or such for data) and give it a go.

I might look at rail buttons so it could be flown from a six or eight foot rail rather than (likely) a 1/4 inch rod in that configuration.

Something to try at Sod Blaster V perhaps….

I’m also pretty sure that projected 3600 foot max altitude is from RockSim and is a bit optimistic.


side note: I saw in another thread here something about some sort of supply issue with the casings for the 29mm BP motors — so maybe that’s why they’re nowhere to be found right now. I have two each F15-0 and E16-0 on hand, and I can’t imagine flying them anywhere else but the Sod Farm, so we shall see.

Another side note: Something is amiss in that art work. It shows the nose cone recovering by its own streamer yet the copy says there’s a big payload section. One of those is clearly not correct.


Added later: it would be REALLY cool if the FlightSketch SST sees the light of day in 2023 (@gtg738w ??) as it would be perfect for this.

 

[bad_idea]

side note: I saw in another thread here something about some sort of supply issue with the casings for the 29mm BP motors — so maybe that’s why they’re nowhere to be found right now.

That is what Estes told me when I inquired back in October. At that time, they had hoped to have 29mm motors back in stock by "mid-December or sooner."

Edit to add: I have enough projects to keep me occupied that I'm not actually inconvenienced in any way by the 29mm shortage (and I'm certainly not disgruntled by it), I just find it interesting they seem to be moving forward with the "So Long."

 

[BEC]

That is what Estes told me when I inquired back in October. At that time, they had hoped to have 29mm motors back in stock by "mid-December or sooner."

Edit to add: I have enough projects to keep me occupied that I'm not actually inconvenienced in any way by the 29mm shortage (and I'm certainly not disgruntled by it), I just find it interesting they seem to be moving forward with the "So Long."

Well….considering the long flow time between a design and prototype test flights of a new kit, the gathering of parts (including sending tubes to China) the making of new blow molds for this model, the production of the kits there then putting them in a container to send back to the US (and I think there are pre-production test kits made and sent to the US in there as well) I’m sure that they didn’t want to stop the process of getting the So Long in the pipeline while solving the 29mm motor casing problem In parallel.

At least for motors, I think once they have the cases they can fire up that newly built for bigger motors descendant of Mabel and use other supplies on hand (black powder, clay for nozzles) that are used in their other motors and make more.

Maybe they’ll hold the production kits in Penrose until 29mm boosters are available again, but that’s more than I know and pure speculation on my part.

There are print lead times as well, for the creation of that flyer at the top of this thread.

 

[A-ron]

For those that are eagle-eyed, this was the kit sneak-previewed in one of the Estes NARCON presentations earlier this year.

Did Estes name it "So Long" because they never saw it again, or because that's how much time it takes to recover one of these?

Better buy two just in case.

 

[astronwolf]

Did Estes name it "So Long" because they never saw it again, or because that's how much time it takes to recover one of these?

The name sounds Chinese.

 

[PDawg]

Estes could've saved some money and simplified things by making this with BT-55 tubes/Nose cones (33mm) instead of adding 29mm stuff into the mix. It still would've been the highest altitude Estes ever built, wouldn't it? The Commanche was 3 stage and only did a claimed 2600 feet. Don't get me wrong, this is the coolest thing Estes has done in a while.

 

[techrat]

All I can say is "good on Estes". I had just been telling myself that there was nothing left for me to buy from them, I was moving on to LOC Precision for F, G and eventually H flights (once I get my L1), but here they have surprised me with something new and exciting. I guess I am saying "So Long" to at least $40, because I am definitely getting one.

 

[Scott_650]

Estes could've saved some money and simplified things by making this with BT-55 tubes/Nose cones (33mm) instead of adding 29mm stuff into the mix. It still would've been the highest altitude Estes ever built, wouldn't it? The Commanche was 3 stage and only did a claimed 2600 feet. Don't get me wrong, this is the coolest thing Estes has done in a while.

If they’re using the thicker walled 29mm engine tube stock this should be sturdier than BT-55 tube - though they could’ve gone the BT-55 lined with C-55 coupler tube, something that would be rather different than any prior Estes kits but probably heavier than T-52H MMT tube. Going with T-52H should mean a really low “parts count” - no centering rings, no motor tube, no motor retainer needed on the sustainer - just the body tubes, stage coupler, 29mm motor blocks, fin stock, nose cone, bulkhead/nose block, streamers - no extra fat so to speak

 

[PDawg]

If they’re using the thicker walled 29mm engine tube stock this should be sturdier than BT-55 tube - though they could’ve gone the BT-55 lined with C-55 coupler tube, something that would be rather different than any prior Estes kits but probably heavier than T-52H MMT tube. Going with T-52H should mean a really low “parts count” - no centering rings, no motor tube, no motor retainer needed on the sustainer - just the body tubes, stage coupler, 29mm motor blocks, fin stock, nose cone, bulkhead/nose block, streamers - no extra fat so to speak

Excellent points, I'm a big fan of "no extra Fat". My Min diameter F-15-8 is about as Fat Free as you can get, I didn't even add nose weight. 3 Flights and recoveries soo far, and some said it couldn't possibly fly.

 

[prfesser]

Estes could've saved some money and simplified things by making this with BT-55 tubes/Nose cones (33mm) instead of adding 29mm stuff into the mix. It still would've been the highest altitude Estes ever built, wouldn't it? The Commanche was 3 stage and only did a claimed 2600 feet. Don't get me wrong, this is the coolest thing Estes has done in a while.

Agreed, and it probably wouldn't have decreased the altitude by much. I did a quick-n-dirty OR design of a two-stage F15 to F15. Minimum diameter gave an altitude of 3980 feet. Scaling up to BT-55 made it 3880 feet. However, minimum diameter means fewer parts and lower cost, e.g., no separate motor mount tubes, adapter rings, etc.

 

[neil_w]

I suspect the reason they made this an MD rocket is because they wanted to make it an MD rocket. They haven’t done that before in 29mm size.

 

[bad_idea]

Props to the first one to name theirs "Thanks for All the Fish."