State of the hobby?

[Alan15578]

I grew up in a small town, too, and had no problem getting Estes engines. But back then, they were sold at Walmart.

I'm sure there's a reason Estes products aren't sold at Michael's, Walmart or other major retail chains (Hobby Lobby being the only exception I'm aware of). I just don't know what this reason is beyond having something to do with profitability.

The industry still has not fully recovered from the HobbyCo meltdown. None of my local or semi-local hobby stores that sell Estes have any C5-3 or Q-jet motors.

Sadly, model rocketry has become a one and done activity mostly via the Scouts and 4H. But yes, the old dudes persist.

 

[majordude]

The industry still has not fully recovered from the HobbyCo meltdown. None of my local or semi-local hobby stores that sell Estes have any C5-3 or Q-jet motors.

Sadly, model rocketry has become a one and done activity mostly via the Scouts and 4H. But yes, the old dudes persist.

The HobbyCo meltdown? Please elaborate!

 

[rharshberger]

The HobbyCo meltdown? Please elaborate!

Hobbico was a major hobby shop distribution system, they owned or controlled a large number of hobby brands, they went into bankruptcy a few years back (which is when Estes got acquired by the current owneers).

 

[smstachwick]

I can see a few obstacles to sustained public interest in rocketry. Sky-high property values, wasteful low-density land development, declining consumer purchasing power, crushing academic and work environments, and loss of national confidence all are or may become barriers to rocketry. I’m sure we could all add to or subtract from this list, and I’d bet we all have our preferred solutions too.

However, a few things may work in the opposite direction. The groundbreaking work done by SpaceX and NASA’s highly anticipated return to the moon via Artemis may make a number of people interested in taking up or returning to rocketry. The concentration of rocket activity around organized clubs may make for a more visible and accessible environment for newcomers. I can confirm that that’s the case at DART.

I would also bet you a pack of B motors that Estes and AeroTech are looking at ways to bring their A-B-C-D motors and compatible kits/starter sets back to chain retail shelves, or at least to those chains’ websites. It only makes sense in terms of getting eyes on labels.

So, the overall state and direction of the hobby? Hard to say. You’d have to weigh all these factors, identify and evaluate any others that may be relevant, and predict which others may enter the fray in the future. Not an easy task.

 

[Initiator001]

The industry still has not fully recovered from the HobbyCo meltdown. None of my local or semi-local hobby stores that sell Estes have any C5-3 or Q-jet motors.

Sadly, model rocketry has become a one and done activity mostly via the Scouts and 4H. But yes, the old dudes persist.

When Hobbico/Great Planes went bankrupt that left only one nationwide hobby distributor: Horizon Hobbies. Horizon is a 'one-stop' hobby distributor carrying products in all hobby categories. Horizon, however, does not carry products from all hobby manufacturers. Many hobby chain stores (HobbyTown) and independent hobby shops order only from Horizon. Estes established a 'exclusive' deal with Horizon so that Horizon would only carry Estes products and no other hobby rocketry manufacturers.

Other hobby rocket companies have tried to get their product into Horizon Hobbies but have been turned away.

Your best bet to get non-Estes products is to order them online.

 

[Initiator001]

(Cut)

I would also bet you a pack of B motors that Estes and AeroTech are looking at ways to bring their A-B-C-D motors and compatible kits/starter sets back to chain retail shelves, or at least to those chains’ websites. It only makes sense in terms of getting eyes on labels.

Dealing with WalMart, Target, HobbyLobby is a nightmare for hobby manufacturers. These big retailers TELL the manufacturer what the terms are for carrying their products, take-it or leave-it. Estes has not been in WalMart for over a decade, they had a very limited exposure in Target stores a few years ago and HobbyLobby demanded 'exclusive' products for them to sell in their stores.

Even with Estes having sewn up the hobby distributor outlet they still find it necessary to pursue direct sales to consumers via their website.

In 1989 there were over 4000 hobby shops (Not chains like HobbyLobby) in the United States. Now that number is under 1000.

 

[smstachwick]

Dealing with WalMart, Target, HobbyLobby is a nightmare for hobby manufacturers. These big retailers TELL the manufacturer what the terms are for carrying their products, take-it or leave-it. Estes has not been in WalMart for over a decade, they had a very limited exposure in Target stores a few years ago and HobbyLobby demanded 'exclusive' products for them to sell in their stores.

Even with Estes having sewn up the hobby distributor outlet they still find it necessary to pursue direct sales to consumers via their website.

In 1989 there were over 4000 hobby shops (Not chains like HobbyLobby) in the United States. Now that number is under 1000.

I might owe you that pack of motors, then.

 

[Initiator001]

It would be good if we had a way to ship motors without hazmat. I'm lucky to have several hobby lobby stores around and they have plenty of motors up through E, but don't have some that I would like to try. Also I have some mid power rockets I would like to fly but getting motors is a problem and getting starters is even bigger problem.
I think people around good sized cities might be luckiest because there might be support for a big enough club to have ability to get a good field to fly from, and enough hobby shops around for supplies.
In the old days I grew up in a small town, I could get Estes engines sent to me through the mail, and there were lots of empty fields around for launching small rockets.

The Hazmat shipping requirement is not going away. The Department of Transportation (DOT) oversees that process and it covers everything from gasoline to hair spray.

FedEx, UPS, DHL and other private shippers love Hazmat shipping as it is a another profit center for their businesses and they keep lobbyists around to influence Congress not to change it.

 

[cwbullet]

I think the hobby is strong. We do need fresh blood. The way we need to accomplish this is by attracting youth to the hobby. We are fighting against PlayStation or Xbox, but I think we can do it. It is tough because we have to smile and encourage them to return and not react to the perceived “stupid questions”.

 

[lakeroadster]

The Hazmat shipping requirement is not going away. The Department of Transportation (DOT) oversees that process and it covers everything from gasoline to hair spray.

FedEx, UPS, DHL and other private shippers love Hazmat shipping as it is a another profit center for their businesses and they keep lobbyists around to influence Congress not to change it.

It would go away, if our fellow countrymen would stop putting folks in charge that are control freaks.

 

[Buckeye]

(Not sure where to post this!)

I left the hobby (again) in 2019 but I'm back... I think.

Estes stopped selling Fs or any composites. Micheal's stopped carrying rocketry products. And I think I have one true hobby shop in my area.

It feels like the hobby is contracting but maybe that is just my experience.

Does anyone have a similar experience or actual data?

Rocketry is not the same hobby of the Boomer youth, and it hasn't been for decades. You have been on this forum for many years, over 1000 posts, recently active in 2019, and judging from your NAR number, a long-time hobbyist. I am surprised this question would come up (as it often does). Do you read your Sport Rocketry magazine and NAR email newsletters? They are full of evidence showing a strong hobby and growing organizational membership.

"Discovering girls", is lame nostalgia. Today, there are many girls on the middle school, high school, and college teams, maybe close to 50%.

Like the way all leisurely pursuits evolve, rocketry has become more specialized. Newbies quickly enter HPR, use advanced materials, and apply electronic payloads. This specialized equipment thrives on e-commerce, not hobby shops.

 

[techrat]

"Discovering girls", is lame nostalgia. Today, there are many girls on the middle school, high school, and college teams, maybe close to 50%.

That may be true while you're still in school, but outside of that, I see maybe 10%, probably less than that percentage of women at club meets. And a lot of those women may be GF's or wives of rocketeers. I'm not as sure as you are of the numbers as I simply do not see these percentages outside of educational activities and can't guarantee that women are involved in the hobby to that percentage.

 

[Buckeye]

I do think the ever-diminishing availability of launch sites is a real problem, without any obvious solution.

Agree. HPR launch sites are hard to find, and HPR student teams are growing. This could be a collision course. At club launches I attend, there is at least one student team with lots of kids, cars, spectators, and needs. Clubs will need to manage the demands of hosting students and serving the general membership as well.

 

[Steve Shannon]

This is interesting. But I wonder if the students are doing it for class and then drop out of the hobby once they discover girls.

The senior members discovered girls and went back to rocketry.

In Tripoli, student members are between 18 and 24 years in age. Based on my own experience, most 18-24 year olds have discovered others, whether boys or girls.

 

[cls]

It would go away, if our fellow countrymen would stop putting folks in charge that are control freaks.

Why would you say that, when shipping regulations are by international agreement? And, for good reasons, too. Do you really want aircraft falling out of the sky, because of lithium batteries, for example?

 

[bjphoenix]

Why would you say that, when shipping regulations are by international agreement? And, for good reasons, too. Do you really want aircraft falling out of the sky, because of lithium batteries, for example?

I think it would be good if we within the community could help each other out with figuring out how to get motors shipped. I tried to order a single pack of C5 to try out and ACSupply didn't want to ship them. I would like to get back into mid power and high power but getting those motors seems to be very difficult. Most of my use these days is limited to B through D that I can buy from local Hobby Lobby.

I think the hobby is strong. We do need fresh blood. The way we need to accomplish this is by attracting youth to the hobby. We are fighting against PlayStation or Xbox, but I think we can do it. It is tough because we have to smile and encourage them to return and not react to the perceived “stupid questions”.

My local club has a lot of young people attending launches. We get a lot of interest from cub scouts, and we have some high school and university teams that attend.

 

[smstachwick]

I think it would be good if we within the community could help each other out with figuring out how to get motors shipped. I tried to order a single pack of C5 to try out and ACSupply didn't want to ship them. I would like to get back into mid power and high power but getting those motors seems to be very difficult. Most of my use these days is limited to B through D that I can buy from local Hobby Lobby.

I once ordered $200 worth of black powder E and F motors direct from Penrose (and probably paid a bit too much for it). I’ve also acquired Estes E16s through HobbyLinc and Aerotech E23Ts from an online retailer I can’t recall now.

It’s not impossible to get them in the mail, in fact it’s quite easy. I think you just need a physical address and somebody to sign for the delivery.

The HPR situation may be different, but there *are* shippers out there for them.

 

[Antares JS]

I think it would be good if we within the community could help each other out with figuring out how to get motors shipped. I tried to order a single pack of C5 to try out and ACSupply didn't want to ship them. I would like to get back into mid power and high power but getting those motors seems to be very difficult. Most of my use these days is limited to B through D that I can buy from local Hobby Lobby.

erockets.biz has anything you could possibly want as long as it doesn't require hazmat shipping. I have ordered single small items from them and they shipped it without issue.

wildmanrocketry.com, buyrocketmotors.com, and balsamachining.com are my go-tos for high power.

 

[cls]

tried to order a single pack of C5 to try out and ACSupply didn't want to ship them.

I think the trick is to order a bunch, because the fixed shipping cost is smaller when divided by more motors.

 

[tomsteve]

It might be interesting to see data on the ”advancing age” of flyers.

The following graph is posted on Tripoli’s membership information page. Students, age 18-25, are a fairly large subset of the total.

View attachment 542931

can you say what age makes a senior member- the one with 3.438 members?
or is 'senior" decided by the amount of years theyve been with TRA?

 

[Antares JS]

can you say what age makes a senior member- the one with 3.438 members?
or is 'senior" decided by the amount of years theyve been with TRA?

Senior members are non-students 18 and older and therefore eligible for HPR certification.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Senior members are non-students 18 and older and therefore eligible for HPR certification.

Exactly right. A student membership is simply a discounted membership for people who are between 18 and 24 and show proof of being a student.

 

[Rob Campbell]

I'd say the state of the hobby is pretty good. Estes is making a lot of products for builders and is rotating classic kits back. Matt Steele regained ownership of NCR and is producing excellent mid power kits and we have a plethora of high power kit makers to choose from. Lastly, the vendors, with one notable exception, are delivering great customer service.

 

[Worsaer]

[ begin opinion ]
We may sometimes place too much weight on the dearth of rocketry kits and supplies at hobby shops as an indicator of the health of our hobby, or the ease of pursuing it.

[ begin old fart commentary ]

"Back in my day..." Seriously, I was interested in rockets since I was a little kid. ( I won't expound here on my early R&D days using my dad's reloading supplies.) In roughly 1973 ordered a kit and motors through the mail and made my launch pad from a board, coffee can and a stick of brazing rod from the auto parts store. There were no hobby shops within 40 miles, but that didn't stop me. The last time I bought kits in a hobby shop was roughly 1995, to work with some local kids who were interested.

[ end old fart commentary ]

There's been a huge shift to online purchasing of most everything for a long time. The demise of Circuit City didn't stop me from buying electronics. I get what I want from Crutchfield quickly, and with great support. Same with rocketry stuff. It's convenient to have on-site vendors for motors. But I've spent thousands of dollars online for rocketry stuff over past 15 years or so.

Young people get a taste for the hobby through friends, scouts, and school projects; they may get a college assignment for a L2 cert and rocket. Later, when they have kids they may return again, and perhaps again for grandkids.

There's a saying that fish swim three times - in water, in butter, and in wine. I think something similar is true of rocketeers - some fly in youth, for fun, and for youth. It's just a BAR thing.

[ end opinion ]

 

[cwbullet]

One thing I forgot to say is that 21 of the 24 certs were TRA. Usually, we have more NAR than TRA.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

Welcome back! In my view the hobby is going very strong. I was an obsessed flier when I was a kid in the 90s and early 2000s. I got back into it in 2021 and found it a lot better. There are more launches, more vendors in almost every aspect from motors, kits, parts and electronics.

 

[SolarYellow]

I had over 25 Cert flights last Saturday. I think 20-25% were women. 85% were successful.

Engineering students?

The engineering/STEM school I went to was somewhere between 3:1 and 4:1 overall male:female with the women concentrating more in in chemistry and biology than engineering and the other stuff. That was true from the '50s until the 2000s, when a new female college president emphasized recruiting women. Eventually, they started graduating more female engineers than male.

 

[cwbullet]

Engineering students?

The engineering/STEM school I went to was somewhere between 3:1 and 4:1 overall male:female with the women concentrating more in in chemistry and biology than engineering and the other stuff. That was true from the '50s until the 2000s, when a new female college president emphasized recruiting women. Eventually, they started graduating more female engineers than male.

I am pretty sure they were engineering students.

 

[SolarYellow]

I am pretty sure they were engineering students.

An implication may be that they were jumping through this hoop as a way to develop their resumes and jumpstart careers, rather than because they find rockets intrinsically interesting.

 

[icyclops]

(Not sure where to post this!)

I left the hobby (again) in 2019 but I'm back... I think.

Estes stopped selling Fs or any composites. Micheal's stopped carrying rocketry products. And I think I have one true hobby shop in my area.

It feels like the hobby is contracting but maybe that is just my experience.

Does anyone have a similar experience or actual data?

Probably really depends on the state And location. My guess would be that In the states where Rocketry is less restrictive due to fire laws, easy and plentiful launch sites, the hobby/sport is probably fine. In states like California and some others where finding launch sites and existing clubs (that rely on launches) and harsh fire laws due to crazy fires every year, probably not so much. Many stores that used to carry motors and kits do not anymore here in CA. Either due to internet but probably fewer sales due to this….store space is expensive and sales speak.