Hybrids 2022

[DRAGON64]

There is new and updated videos on a youtube page run by Contrail Rockets LLC: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqEfRF3D07y21UTmivI546g

Signs that Contrail has not given up on hybrids or us. I believe we should give back in kind, by 1) supporting Contrail's efforts by buying their products and 2) to continue to discuss them here.

I no longer on facebook, but I believe Contrail Rockets is, so please be sure to follow them if you are still a fb member.

Previous Threads:

Hybrids 2015
Hybrids 2016
Hybrids 2017
Hybrids 2018
Hybrids 2019
Hybrids 2020
Hybrids 2021

Here begin another year on the topic of hybrids propulsion and all activities associated with the topic...why? Especially with interest nearly non-existent? Because 2022 marks the 13th anniversary of the NAR & TRA winning the lawsuit against the ATF, where-by removing APCP from the explosives list. This is the proverbial line in the sand, marking the time which we begin to see the decline of hobby based hybrids. Why you say? Because, of the 4 or 5 manufacturers that supplied our hobby, there is one left. One who still believes, and is trying to support us, and provide new hybrids for the small market. I am referring to Contrail Rockets.

It would seem that hybrids may still be thriving in the research world, rather than the commercial hobby industry. So, if you are indeed researching hybrids and or tri-brids, please post up the research in the proper research forum. But be sure to share your videos and flights here in the Hybrids forum. So, without further ado:

Another flying season gone-by, and a new one is just ramping up... what are your goals for flying hybrids during the 2022 flying season? Anything and everything hybrid related is welcome!

* Motors
* Vehicles
* Ground Support (GSE)
* Research motors discussion (within the limits of a non-research forum)
* Electronics
*Altimeters; Vent sensors; GPS etc etc
* Commercial/Professional advancement hybrid discussion
* College development (i.e. TUDelft etc etc)
* Events/Launch coverage
* New flyer questions

 

[ContrailRockets]

Happy New Year
Yes Contrail Rockets is still filling orders to our loyal customers. We are also into massive R&D projects. The www.contrailrockets.net site is coming along. Ultimately I had to take over the site rework to get it get closer to completion. Pictures are missing and an error here and there but business never stopped. I have been posting on YouTube. a link can be found on the new site.
The Quick Order Motor Chart is taking shape for all certified motors. Quick links to TMT data and Reload orders are in place. I plan on linking associated items to help in getting the right products. Once the bugs are fixed then I will transfer it to my.com site and redirect.net to .com.

PM me with comments. 2022 will be a great year for Hybrids.
Tom

 

[smstachwick]

I realize that it may seem silly for a guy who is just getting back into flying low- and mid-power to have any interest in hybrid technology, but I know I'm the kind of person who likes to try a little bit of this and a little bit of that. I'm not sure if I'll get an L1 cert and jump into the world of hybrids in 2022, but it's certainly on the list of things to play around with in years to come.

I had not realized that the market for hybrids had contracted so severely. I sincerely hope that @ContrailRockets will endure. It looks like they're doing some phenomenal work with the technology, and I definitely see a great deal of potential for it in a world of package carriers that would rather eat human waste than handle APCP and BP propellants.

 

[Hobie1dog]

I just went through all of the 2021 thread, but after going to see how much the hardware cost there is no way that a person living on fixed income can afford the hardware Wow that is super expensive. M motor launch for $130 or so is attractive, just can't afford to get started. It's not a problem at all like most things in life, you just need lots of money to play hard with the big boys.

 

[smstachwick]

I just went through all of the 2021 thread, but after going to see how much the hardware cost there is no way that a person living on fixed income can afford the hardware Wow that is super expensive. M motor launch for $130 or so is attractive, just can't afford to get started. It's not a problem at all like most things in life, you just need lots of money to play hard with the big boys.

By all means, reach out to other flyers. Perhaps somebody has some equipment they’d be willing to lend out or otherwise make available for cheap. Or you might be able to find somebody to pool with. If you’re part of a NAR Section that sponsors HPR or a Tripoli prefecture, that might be your best route.

 

[Hobie1dog]

The M reloads are $260 now, then the NO2. I just looked and an AeroTech M reload was about $395 and requires zero GSE

 

[DRAGON64]

I just went through all of the 2021 thread, but after going to see how much the hardware cost there is no way that a person living on fixed income can afford the hardware Wow that is super expensive. M motor launch for $130 or so is attractive, just can't afford to get started. It's not a problem at all like most things in life, you just need lots of money to play hard with the big boys.

I feel ya; when I got started there were all kinds of incentives to get into hybrids. At the time, circa 1998, HyperTEK, then owned by Korey Kline, was offering free GSE to clubs if (5) members each bought one 440cc tank with 5 reloads for each!! Many clubs bought in, and hybrids flourished. Today, most of the old HyperTEK GSE is dismantled, sold off, or in dire need of replacement parts that are no longer serviced. CTI bought HyperTEK, but then did little or nothing with the line and HyperTEK pretty much died out.

All this to say; I would gladly let you fly from my GSE at a club launch, in this case HARA is closest with MC2 and PMW close on either end of the state from me. If you can find someone with the GSE, that really helps to offset the entry level cost. As for hardware; yes, it is expensive if you can find some. Right now Contrail is the only game in town... with that being said, Contrail has not raised their prices in 13 or 14 years!!!

When I decided on Contrail, I went big, not 6" big, but 4" big. I wanted something I could use hand tools on when assembling. For reference, the 98mm does not use snap ring hardware, but socket head cap screw hardware!!

My GSE is not commercial, it is custom. An individual flier, also a forum member, reached out to me and offered to build mine. It was the cheapest around, as there was nothing else available. But it is bought, paid for, and I can fly hybrids anywhere at any launch. It had to be this way, it is the time we fly in.

Truth be told, if I had the funding, I would work up a deal with Contrail and make a similar offer that Korey Kline offered up all those years ago... a time when rocketry, for me, was truly on the up-and-up.

 

[smstachwick]

Does anyone happen to know the rules for flying hybrids in California? I couldn’t help but notice that ROC advertises hybrid flights at their own events and I’ve seen guys bring their GSE and motors out there, but I also know that commercial rocket motors typically require California State Fire Marshal certification to be legal outside of research events.

Is there an exemption for hybrids or something?

 

[ContrailRockets]

Contrail Rockets Hybrid Vent Detector. This Detector operates on volume of Nitrous Oxide not the temperature of the Nitrous Oxide. This new product is in final testing but a sneak peak of what is happening in new developments. This works on existing motors that are vented through the combustion chamber in the 75mm, 98mm 152mm lines. This new innovation also works with the new internally vented 54mm and 38mm motors. This is a stand alone product only requiring a 12 volt power supply. There are no delicate electronics to get damaged . The Horn is a 12 volt back up alarm which is covered with tape to reduce the noise. The strobe is from a Forklift giving a 360 degree warning that the motor is filled and ready to launch. When coupled to a Wilson FX that has an audible tone when filling the dramatic audio and visual notification that the motor is filled in at a distance.

This detector is shown on a tripod using the standard ¼ 20 threads , so no modification are required to the tripod. I also have a simple ground level stand. A cutting board with a ¼ 20 bolt that the detector threads onto. Ul Rated cords and heavy duty gator clips are color coded to connect to existing 12 volt pad power.

Please let me know what you think.

Tom Sanders
Contrail Rockets

 

[ContrailRockets]

The M reloads are $260 now, then the NO2. I just looked and an AeroTech M reload was about $395 and requires zero GSE

Contrail Rockets Prices had not changed prices since 2008. I inserted a 2% annual inflation factor on all existing products not just reloads. My costs have gone up in all areas not just materials or shipping. Running at a net $0 just because I love the hobby will not pay for expansion into new products. I am working on alternatives that will improve performance and reduce costs. There will be drop replacements for existing hardware or improved hardware for added performance. What is happening in hybrids just wait and see. Tom

 

[Hobie1dog]

Don't get me wrong, I am fascinated by the hybrids but I'm just way out of my league and know that living on social security income that there's no way that I can afford a piece of motor hardware that's $1,000 That would be like a normal person with the normal $40K/year job expecting to go out and buy an Aston Martin. It's just out of their price range. Even if I ever get the funds to build a level three rocket, I would not have the money to be able to buy a reload kit using borrowed hardware.

 

[Dave A]

Contrail Rockets Prices had not changed prices since 2008. I inserted a 2% annual inflation factor on all existing products not just reloads. My costs have gone up in all areas not just materials or shipping. Running at a net $0 just because I love the hobby will not pay for expansion into new products. I am working on alternatives that will improve performance and reduce costs. There will be drop replacements for existing hardware or improved hardware for added performance. What is happening in hybrids just wait and see. Tom

My Contrail 75mm M reloads are only $130. They scream like a banshee!
Buy a couple 75mm 4 or 5 grain AP motors, doesn't take long to justify the GSE. I bought my system prior to the lawsuit win.
GO CONTRAIL!!!

 

[Voyager1]

Contrail Rockets Hybrid Vent Detector. This Detector operates on volume of Nitrous Oxide not the temperature of the Nitrous Oxide. This new product is in final testing but a sneak peak of what is happening in new developments. This works on existing motors that are vented through the combustion chamber in the 75mm, 98mm 152mm lines. This new innovation also works with the new internally vented 54mm and 38mm motors. This is a stand alone product only requiring a 12 volt power supply. There are no delicate electronics to get damaged . The Horn is a 12 volt back up alarm which is covered with tape to reduce the noise. The strobe is from a Forklift giving a 360 degree warning that the motor is filled and ready to launch. When coupled to a Wilson FX that has an audible tone when filling the dramatic audio and visual notification that the motor is filled in at a distance.

This detector is shown on a tripod using the standard ¼ 20 threads , so no modification are required to the tripod. I also have a simple ground level stand. A cutting board with a ¼ 20 bolt that the detector threads onto. Ul Rated cords and heavy duty gator clips are color coded to connect to existing 12 volt pad power.

Please let me know what you think.

Tom Sanders
Contrail Rockets

Tom

This looks like a great development, but it is not clear to me how this fits into the flight tank fill plumbing and how it monitors the volume of N2O that is delivered to the flight tank. Any further details would be greatly appreciated. It looks like something that would go well with my Contrail bolted 75mm motor.

Additionally, is it possible to convert my existing externally-vented 38mm and 54mm motors to internally-vented versions?

 

[drewnickel]

Don't get me wrong, I am fascinated by the hybrids but I'm just way out of my league and know that living on social security income that there's no way that I can afford a piece of motor hardware that's $1,000 That would be like a normal person with the normal $40K/year job expecting to go out and buy an Aston Martin. It's just out of their price range. Even if I ever get the funds to build a level three rocket, I would not have the money to be able to buy a reload kit using borrowed hardware.

Something my university did was buy reloadable hybrid hardware for the students to use for certifications along with GSE. In this way, students are able to fly for the cost of a reload, and with bulk nitrous orders through Airgas we got it for around $1.15 a pound. The biggest drawback to hybrids by far is the initial investment, but being able to launch multiple M reloads for the cost of one, you get more bang for your buck. My local field has also been looking at getting hybrid GSE and cases for loaning to members.

I don't see hybrids replacing solids but they are a fun novelty, operational cost is lower than solids, and they are probably the best choice for research motors (solids and liquids are more or less a solved problem, hybrids have plenty of areas of research ongoing). If you start getting into research hybrids, the cost drops astronomically: I had a $40 full L / baby M load for a custom 75mm 40 inch long case, 38mm reloads can be just a few dollars.

 

[drewnickel]

As for Contrail, there is some crazy stuff on the way that should help close the performance gap between hybrids and solids. Faster and more reliable ignition with Tom's ring of fire igniters, vastly improved injectors, and high performance fuels. Here's one of the new HPTV injectors being tested.

 

[DAllen]

So looking at the Contrail web site I can't seem to figure out what is needed for GSE...and how much the initial investment is...

 

[Voyager1]

So looking at the Contrail web site I can't seem to figure out what is needed for GSE...and how much the initial investment is...

Here is the GSE that we use from Pratt Hobbies:
https://www.pratt-hobbies.com/proddetail.asp?prod=ULS-M2We have two sets of these with the pressure gauge upgrade. The only other item you require is a simple 3 channel launch controller for fill, purge and ignition. Best to use a relay-based system. As the 12V solenoids are current hungry, you are advised to use at least a 15-20 Ah battery. I use a 35 Ah SLA with my WFX hybrid GSE pad box.

You also need to either purchase or hire an N2O bottle and have it refilled when necessary.

 

[ContrailRockets]

Tom

This looks like a great development, but it is not clear to me how this fits into the flight tank fill plumbing and how it monitors the volume of N2O that is delivered to the flight tank. Any further details would be greatly appreciated. It looks like something that would go well with my Contrail bolted 75mm motor.

Additionally, is it possible to convert my existing externally-vented 38mm and 54mm motors to internally-vented versions?

Have been manufacturing and testing internal vents for both 54mm and 38mm motors eliminating the need for the top vent and the hole through your rocket for the vent line. The Ring of Fire ignition cup, the CNVA and CNVA injector baffle plus the Internal Vent all add to hybrid performance. The Vent Detector was designed for Internally Vented hybrids only. It operates on the change of pressure seen when the vented NOS goes from Gas to Liquid.
I have been working on the website. The new Quick Order Motor Chart is getting revised to simplify ordering reloads. I am also adding pictures of reloads to the ordering page. The Internally Vented CNVA Injector Baffle and the Top Vent conversion will be added soon.

 

[viney266]

I miss seeing hybrids. This thread makes me happy.

I always did a lot with NO2 in bikes and cars (installs), and it was fun to see this idea and how it works!

 

[DRAGON64]

We need an N-reload for the 98mm 5300cc system... just saying!

 

[CoyoteNumber2]

You also need to either purchase or hire an N2O bottle and have it refilled when necessary.

And hydro tested every five years, if the tank is yours.

 

[ContrailRockets]

Had my 50 pound cylinders done at $35 each. You are not required to recertify until you have them refilled. Steel cylinders are 12 years and aluminum are 5 years. Changed out the cylinder valves to Fast Flow NOS 90 degree at the same time. The problem with the 135 degree cylinder valve is that it will not fit under a steel cap.

Here is some basic data on Solenoid Valves, Cylinder Valves and Fittings

Description	Size	OD	wall thickness​	ID	Area
Item		Size	Thread	ID/Orifice	Area
Purge Solenoid Valve	1/8"	0.125​	NPT	0.062	0.003
Adapter Bullnose	326	0.125​	NPT	0.12	0.011
CGA cylinder valve	326	0.83​	14NGO-RH	0.125	0.012
BFV Solenoid Valve	1/4"	0.25​	NPT	0.12	0.011
Adapter Bullnose-Modified	326	0.125​	NPT	0.14	0.015
4 AN Fittings	1/4"	0.25​	.0375​	0.175	0.024
CGA cylinder valve	660	1.035​	14NGO-RH	0.187	0.027
6 AN Fittings	3/8"	0.375​	.04​	0.295	0.068
Fast Flow NOS 90 degrees	660	1.035​	14NGO-RH	0.3071	0.074
Fast Flow NOS 135 degrees	660	1.035​	14NGO-RH	0.311	0.076
CFF Contrail Fast Fill Solenoid Valve	1/2"	0.5​	NPT	0.375	0.110

 

[kramer714]

Does anyone happen to know the rules for flying hybrids in California? I couldn’t help but notice that ROC advertises hybrid flights at their own events and I’ve seen guys bring their GSE and motors out there, but I also know that commercial rocket motors typically require California State Fire Marshal certification to be legal outside of research events.

Is there an exemption for hybrids or something?

I launch hybrids at the ROC launches at Lucerne Dry Lakebed. Always happy to help out hybrids. i have GSE and tanks...

Mike K

 

[kramer714]

And hydro tested every five years, if the tank is yours.

Or... come out to a roc launch and use my stuff

 

[CoyoteNumber2]

Steel cylinders are 12 years

Mine isn't one of the cool ones. It has to be retested every five years.

 

[smstachwick]

I launch hybrids at the ROC launches at Lucerne Dry Lakebed. Always happy to help out hybrids. i have GSE and tanks...

Mike K

I remember having a really awesome hybrid-centered conversation with an attendee out there at November ROCstock. He basically talked me through the idea for the system, with ordinary rubber as propellant and how “hot oxygen turns anything into a rocket”. Not sure if that was you, but in either case I’ll let you know if intend to get into flying them.

On the other hand, I also did see an F10 go out there on Saturday and I’m pretty sure only Apogee makes them, and Apogee doesn’t go for CSFM approval, so it’s possible ROC plays fast and loose with the rules.

 

[mikec]

I also did see an F10 go out there on Saturday and I’m pretty sure only Apogee makes them, and Apogee doesn’t go for CSFM approval...

The F10 is manufactured by Aerotech and I'm 99% sure it has CSFM approval, but the AT website is down right now so I can't prove it.

 

[smstachwick]

The F10 is manufactured by Aerotech and I'm 99% sure it has CSFM approval, but the AT website is down right now so I can't prove it.

AT did manufacture them and I know they go for CSFM approval with their motors but it appears that they’re OOP. I don’t know for how long.

It did occur to me that it could have been an old load, which is why I didn’t say anything at the range. I figured that the RSO/LCO had checked it, but having no clarification on the hybrid rules, the possibility of some kind of mix-up or oversight occurred to me as well.

 

[mikec]

I like to have discussions about regulations in person with club leaders, not on the internet.

AFAIK, the F10 is being actively produced by Aerotech and branded by Apogee. I can buy them on the Apogee website and they sure appear to have a CA OSFM seal on them.

As for hybrids, IANAL but a hybrid is a hunk of plastic and some N2O. The CA state OSFM regulations only talk about solid motors as far as I can tell.

 

[tfish]

Tony