Wildman blackhawk 98mm XL on an M6000ST, any advice?

[Iamtannorv]

Not planning on this any time soon, very optimistically shooting for airfest 29 after I do my level 3 cert(again, optimistically) at airfest 28, but I plan on, at some point, flying Wildman's signature blackhawk 98mm diameter XL rocket on an AT M6000ST to approx mach 2 and 17k ft. Just trying to get an idea of what I plan on getting myself into, would anyone recommend doing any adjustments to the kit, such as CF tip to tip or anything else, or is the kit itself capable of standing up to the expected performance? In addition, when, in general, would you recommend doing CF tip to tip on a rocket, what do you look for or what makes you decide to? Also, any links or references to instructional material for tip to tip layups would be appreciated, as I appear to be having a hard time finding it myself, and have never done it before. Thanks in advance!

 

[DAllen]

No advice here...Just subscribing for the show.

 

[Theory]

No advice here...Just subscribing for the show.

X2

am in no way qualified to give advice on a Mach 2 flight that will pull north of 50 Gs for a sustained period of time.

that said, will be one heck of a flight!!!

 

[rfjustin]

My advice, build a Wildman Mach 2 with 54mm motors, get past 20K.... then we'll talk...
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/wildman-mach-3.158888/

 

[Iamtannorv]

My advice, build a Wildman Mach 2 with 54mm motors, get past 20K.... then we'll talk...
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/wildman-mach-3.158888/

My ramblings are just those of a young rocketeer newly introduced to the hobby by his dad wanting to do super cool stuff. I appreciate the advice and will probably take you up on that plan. I've got a 38mm blackhawk on the way for my first min diameter. Do you think the blackhawk 54 would be a good idea in the future in place of the mach 2? I just am kinda iffy about HED and would like to stick more with standard DD. With regards to building technique, how necessary is the fin beveling and tip to tip in projects of this nature? At what point does standard construction become insufficient and additional reinforcement become required?

 

[rfjustin]

My ramblings are just those of a young rocketeer newly introduced to the hobby by his dad wanting to do super cool stuff. I appreciate the advice and will probably take you up on that plan. I've got a 38mm blackhawk on the way for my first min diameter. Do you think the blackhawk 54 would be a good idea in the future in place of the mach 2? I just am kinda iffy about HED and would like to stick more with standard DD. With regards to building technique, how necessary is the fin beveling and tip to tip in projects of this nature? At what point does standard construction become insufficient and additional reinforcement become required?

Why don't you read through the Mach 3 build, some of your questions are addressed in said thread.

Best,

 

[Buckeye]

My ramblings are just those of a young rocketeer newly introduced to the hobby by his dad wanting to do super cool stuff. I appreciate the advice and will probably take you up on that plan. I've got a 38mm blackhawk on the way for my first min diameter. Do you think the blackhawk 54 would be a good idea in the future in place of the mach 2? I just am kinda iffy about HED and would like to stick more with standard DD. With regards to building technique, how necessary is the fin beveling and tip to tip in projects of this nature? At what point does standard construction become insufficient and additional reinforcement become required?

I have both Blackhawk38 and Mach2 built with nothing more than good RocketPoxy fillets. T2T not necessary. Fin beveling not necessary unless you like the look or have some insight on the drag reduction. I am starting to like HED (simple and efficient) more than standard DD.

BH38 gets you 14k+ feet on J motors. Mach2 gets you 20k+feet (and Mach 2, hence the name) on K motors as rfjustin mentioned. If you are geeked for altitude, then you can achieve a lot with min diameter L2 motors and less cost than L3. Other than Airfest and a few places out West, you can't fly over 20k feet anyway.

Rather than racking up L1, L2, and L3 lapel pins all in less than a year, enjoy the ride at each step.

 

[rfjustin]

Rather than racking up L1, L2, and L3 lapel pins all in less than a year, enjoy the ride at each step.

Boom, nailed it. Enjoy the ride and the challenge OP....

 

[Johnly]

Might want to check on the availability of the M6000ST reload, as I was told that it is not currently available.

 

[manixFan]

Yeah, if you are asking for info on advice on how to do a layout for a rocket that will likely exceed Mach 2, you might be putting the cart ahead of the horse. As others have said here, work your way up.

If you do, you'll realize you don't need tip-to-tip.


Tony

 

[StreuB1]

I saw the title and literally giggled.

Sub'd for the funsies.

 

[StreuB1]

Rather than racking up L1, L2, and L3 lapel pins all in less than a year, enjoy the ride at each step.

Boom, nailed it. Enjoy the ride and the challenge OP....

I will echo what they already have. Doing you L1-L3 in one season sounds like a good time.....its not though. You need to actually learn some of this stuff, its actually important. I've been flying HPR since I was a teenager in HS, done my certs several times, and still things happen. Learn, grow, enjoy the hobby. Its not a rat race. Fly a Minie Magg on J800's and then K1100's and watch the crowd OOOHHHH and AHHHHHH and hear people call you crazy for doing it with cardboard. There is tons of fun in that.

This also coming from someone who bought an M4500ST and an L2500ST for Black Wednesday.....

FWIW, here is the M4500 and that below is an 8" diameter Mega Cowabunga and that M4500 flame is over 10' long.

Now imagine another grain.....thats the M6000

 

[Iamtannorv]

I appreciate the wisdom and advice from all of you much more experienced fliers, definitely helps temper my over-enthusiasm towards this stuff. I think my plan now will be to accomplish the following milestones, in no particular order, before attempting my level 3,
1. 38mm min diameter, then 54, then 75.
2. Mach1, then 2.
3. 10k, then 15k, then 20k altitude
I would appreciate feedback on my plan, and thank you all again for the wonderful advice and suggestions.

I am starting to like HED (simple and efficient) more than standard DD.

How reliable are you finding HED to be? It just seems kind of "sketchy" I would say to have the BP charge below the chute kind of pushing it into the nosecone as the nosecone comes off and then hoping the resulting force will be enough to pull the chute out, as opposed to the "Cannon-like" nature of 2 break dual deploy.

 

[Theory]

Can absolutely comment on HED as I have several flights on my WM Drago 4 "EX-1127" (yes, built for the Loki K1127, and ill say this, when it works it works, and when it doesn't its your fault.

Had an issue two weeks ago where the chute hung in the nose. felt very tight when I was packing it (wasn't the chute' I typically use) and at 500' when the main charge blew the chute stayed in the nose. the second charge went at 400', and that was 100% useless. Ordered a new chute from RM and all should be good.

Fundamentally there arent any issues with HED. In fact my next design will likely use HED.

 

[OverTheTop]

HED is quite reliable. I use a set of charges on the NC to blow that at apogee, then a set of charges in the airframe to blow out the main. I suggest a deployment bag for reliability.

As others have said tip to tip is not necessary if your fins are stiff enough.

 

[Theory]

total side track here - have wanted to fly the larger 98mm ST motors for some time. that picture of the M4500 only furthers that.

fingers crossed we get a single grain 75mm ST load at some point.

 

[Iamtannorv]

HED is quite reliable. I use a set of charges on the NC to blow that at apogee, then a set of charges in the airframe to blow out the main. I suggest a deployment bag for reliability.

As others have said tip to tip is not necessary if your fins are stiff enough.

Are you saying you put a drogue in the nosecone at apogee and then have the main in the booster section?

 

[tim cubbedge]

Are you saying you put a drogue in the nosecone at apogee and then have the main in the booster section?

Let me correct my response. The main goes in the NC and the drogue goes in the booster. Yes very reliable but I have seen it done the other way as well but not as often.

 

[Buckeye]

How reliable are you finding HED to be? It just seems kind of "sketchy" I would say to have the BP charge below the chute kind of pushing it into the nosecone as the nosecone comes off and then hoping the resulting force will be enough to pull the chute out, as opposed to the "Cannon-like" nature of 2 break dual deploy.

I have far more standard DD flights than HED, but so far so good. The ejection charge is more an omnidirectional pressurization than a force vector. Good packing helps - Attach the chute near the nose cone tip, pack the shockcord first into the nose tip, then the chute last.

 

[Buckeye]

Are you saying you put a drogue in the nosecone at apogee and then have the main in the booster section?

I guess this can be a good approach on short stubby rockets, where the nosecone "half" has similar mass/drag as the booster "half."

 

[Banzai88]

Rather than racking up L1, L2, and L3 lapel pins all in less than a year, enjoy the ride at each step.

Boom, nailed it. Enjoy the ride and the challenge OP....

I will echo what they already have. Doing you L1-L3 in one season sounds like a good time.....its not though. You need to actually learn some of this stuff, its actually important. I've been flying HPR since I was a teenager in HS, done my certs several times, and still things happen. Learn, grow, enjoy the hobby. Its not a rat race.

In the last 6 years I've seen a LOT of folks L1/L2 on the same rocket (often it's the 'first high power rocket that I've ever built!'), usually 'low-and-slow' pop and drop single deploy.....then go L3CC/TAP shopping. I can't, for the life of me, figure out why there are a core of mentors that think that signing on to a 'second rocket I've ever built, and I've never used electronics' is a plan for success, and the lack of first pass yield successes on that road speaks for itself. I appreciate that some folks have the skill sets and maturity (and time and money) to do it successfully.....but based on the tally of my local fields, that's the extreme exception, not the norm.

In fact, I've kept an informal tally in my notebook, and exactly TWO of those particular projects succeeded the first time (mostly because both of those flyers were previous L3 from 'back in the day' and had come back to rocketry after life calmed down). The others failed, often twice or more, usually in rather spectacular and often dangerous manners. Let's not forget that L3 is $400ish per motor burn+hardware+rocket.

Big L1/Small L2 is a great sweet spot for size of rocket, motor availability, and expense. It's the place to learn materials and build techniques. It's also the place to become familiar with electronics (flight computers as well as GPS) and the skill sets to fly dual deploy. Failures are smaller, and exponentially less expensive and dangerous.

 

[StreuB1]

How reliable are you finding HED to be? It just seems kind of "sketchy" I would say to have the BP charge below the chute kind of pushing it into the nosecone as the nosecone comes off and then hoping the resulting force will be enough to pull the chute out, as opposed to the "Cannon-like" nature of 2 break dual deploy.

The answer to your question.....

And thats 30' of Kevlar, 5' of nomex sheath, 18x18 nomex blanket, and a 60" Recon chute inside that NC.

 

[rfjustin]

I've had great experience with HED. Ground testing is key.

 

[Theory]

X1,246,718.2 on ground testing being key.

also, if youre packing it and you think to yourself "self, that seems a little too tight," take a pause and re-pack

 

[boatgeek]

I appreciate the wisdom and advice from all of you much more experienced fliers, definitely helps temper my over-enthusiasm towards this stuff. I think my plan now will be to accomplish the following milestones, in no particular order, before attempting my level 3,
1. 38mm min diameter, then 54, then 75.
2. Mach1, then 2.
3. 10k, then 15k, then 20k altitude
I would appreciate feedback on my plan, and thank you all again for the wonderful advice and suggestions.

How reliable are you finding HED to be? It just seems kind of "sketchy" I would say to have the BP charge below the chute kind of pushing it into the nosecone as the nosecone comes off and then hoping the resulting force will be enough to pull the chute out, as opposed to the "Cannon-like" nature of 2 break dual deploy.

Breaking down the goals into more achievable steps is a great idea, as is trying out new concepts (like HED) on smaller/cheaper rockets. Sometimes experimentation leads to crashes, and you'd sure rather crash a 38mm MD than a 98mm MD. If I might offer some suggestions:

* Some of these goals will naturally combine. A 54mm MD to Mach 1 will go way past 10k feet, and maybe past 15K depending on motor and weight.
* Consider what flying fields you have available. If your nearest field with a 10-15K waiver is a 12-hour drive away, you will probably do better to experiment on non-MD rockets first.
* While MD rockets have some nice aspects of simplicity, there's other complications. Packing redundant altimeters and a tracker into a 54mm AV bay is hard. Doing a 4" rocket as your first AV bay will make your layout job far, far easier.
* You might have an easier time of it if you practice things like HED and your first altimeter deployments on a 4" rocket with a 38mm motor mount. That way the flight will be low enough that you can see all of the parts deploy and see if you had any near-misses that you'd need to fix. The motors are also cheaper if you want to practice more times.

 

[Iamtannorv]

Breaking down the goals into more achievable steps is a great idea, as is trying out new concepts (like HED) on smaller/cheaper rockets. Sometimes experimentation leads to crashes, and you'd sure rather crash a 38mm MD than a 98mm MD. If I might offer some suggestions:

* Some of these goals will naturally combine. A 54mm MD to Mach 1 will go way past 10k feet, and maybe past 15K depending on motor and weight.
* Consider what flying fields you have available. If your nearest field with a 10-15K waiver is a 12-hour drive away, you will probably do better to experiment on non-MD rockets first.
* While MD rockets have some nice aspects of simplicity, there's other complications. Packing redundant altimeters and a tracker into a 54mm AV bay is hard. Doing a 4" rocket as your first AV bay will make your layout job far, far easier.
* You might have an easier time of it if you practice things like HED and your first altimeter deployments on a 4" rocket with a 38mm motor mount. That way the flight will be low enough that you can see all of the parts deploy and see if you had any near-misses that you'd need to fix. The motors are also cheaper if you want to practice more times.

Luckily I'm stationed in las vegas for the time being so I'm within a few hours of several high altitude fields for any extreme flights. As well yeah I've been flying my 3" punisher entirely on 38mm motors and plan on using that to learn dual deploy and HED, as I bought a bit of payload tube and other stuff to stretch it into a DD capable rocket, in addition to the 4" loc amraam ive got on the way to have a nice paper rocket to learn the simpler things on. I don't think I'd want to try to learn anything new on a minimum diameter that seems like a nightmare with how small everything is

 

[firemanup]

Never ever ever do L1, L2, and L3 all in the same year...

I don't like HED, because I'm old, and a boomer, and set in my ways, but you know that.

We racked the 4” Deadpool at Airfest with StreuB1, he was one rail to the left of us. You might remember and be able to put faces to TRF handles.

Justin flies some very cool speed/altitude stuff and is a good source for that kind of craziness.

Boatgeeks points are dead on.

By the time you can afford an M6000 they will probably be discontinued.

 

[StreuB1]

Never ever ever do L1, L2, and L3 all in the same year...

I don't like HED, because I'm old, and a boomer, and set in my ways, but you know that.

We racked the 4” Deadpool at Airfest with StreuB1, he was one rail to the left of us. You might remember and be able to put faces to TRF handles.

Justin flies some very cool speed/altitude stuff and is a good source for that kind of craziness.

Boatgeeks points are dead on.

By the time you can afford an M6000 they will probably be discontinued.

Hey Jason! Now I know your handle on here as well! Or did I already.......I'm getting oldER as well I think...

Is this your buddy that was with you who built his rocket in the hotel room at Airfest??

Heading back in 2022? Got any special projects? I'm going to be building a Demon 150 and hopefully flying it on the L2500ST at mini MWP for a shakedown and then on the M4500ST at Airfest. Also a Mach 2 on a K270W at Airfest...... I guess the 2 mile walk for my L3 wasn't enough punishment...

Tannor,

Check out a Wildman Drago 4 or a Punisher 4. Or for less cost, have LOC put you a custom Minie Magg kit together that adds a payload bay and an Ebay for dual deploy and upgrade the MMT to 54mm. That is a GREAT flyer that can fly on LOADS of motors. Its big and fat and can fly slow or fast and will get you feet wet easily on dual deploy and the like. Grab you a Missile Works RRC2+ and/or RRC2L for your first electronics and have at it! See if you have some people you can borrow reload hardware from and grab some reloads and have fun. That Minie Magg setup I mentioned is one I have and its one of, if not my favorite rocket I own. It LOVES J415's and J800's but also can fly on I's and some big fast H's for loud, low, and slow flights on small fields or low cloud days.

 

[Orien]

As a man who has yet to cert level 2 after multiple attempts, i offer this advice:
Send it!

 

[firemanup]

Hey Jason! Now I know your handle on here as well! Or did I already.......I'm getting oldER as well I think...

Is this your buddy that was with you who built his rocket in the hotel room at Airfest??

Heading back in 2022? Got any special projects? I'm going to be building a Demon 150 and hopefully flying it on the L2500ST at mini MWP for a shakedown and then on the M4500ST at Airfest. Also a Mach 2 on a K270W at Airfest...... I guess the 2 mile walk for my L3 wasn't enough punishment...

Tannor,

Check out a Wildman Drago 4 or a Punisher 4. Or for less cost, have LOC put you a custom Minie Magg kit together that adds a payload bay and an Ebay for dual deploy and upgrade the MMT to 54mm. That is a GREAT flyer that can fly on LOADS of motors. Its big and fat and can fly slow or fast and will get you feet wet easily on dual deploy and the like. Grab you a Missile Works RRC2+ and/or RRC2L for your first electronics and have at it! See if you have some people you can borrow reload hardware from and grab some reloads and have fun. That Minie Magg setup I mentioned is one I have and its one of, if not my favorite rocket I own. It LOVES J415's and J800's but also can fly on I's and some big fast H's for loud, low, and slow flights on small fields or low cloud days.

Yeh sometimes he is just some guy i know, other times i admit he is my son, depends what he did!

Ive got Big Bada Boom (5” Wildman Shapeshifter) ready to go up on an N2000, maybe Argonia Cup, maybe out in Vegas in May with Tannor or at Airfest. Got carried away at Wildmans sale. Now tannor has my interest peaked with these blackhawk kits so a 54 or 75mm BH is probably in the cards soon.