Unsanctioned HPR launches?

[Kelly]

Nope, as Tim posted above, Tripoli Members can launch rockets independently of any club and still be covered by Tripoli insurance. They just have to follow all the rules.

I'm still a bit confused. If I look at the Tripoli page on insurance, it says that you are covered if it is a sanctioned launch, and the definition of sanctioned is:

​

Also called Insured Launch. Any launch of a rocket that meets ALL of the following constraints:​

1. Responsible person of launch shall be member of Tripoli in good standing.​

2. Follows the appropriate Tripoli Safety Code.​

3. Legal: All AHJ (e.g. FAA waiver) requirements/regulations met and any required permits secured.​

4. Landowner permission/constraints followed.​

​

So far, so good. But lower down, it says:

Why do we need to list launch sites in order for them to be covered by the insurance?​

Tripoli requires this to properly “risk assess” insurance coverage perils.​

So, if no forms or registrations are required, where does the launch site get "listed"?

 

[tsmith1315]

4. Landowner permission/constraints followed.

See the page: http://www.tripoli.org/Insurance

On the top right, under the FAQ link, is this:

 

[Kelly]

See the page: http://www.tripoli.org/Insurance

On the top right, under the FAQ link, is this:

View attachment 492393

Right, I see that. But is filling out and submitting this form to TRA a prerequisite to having a sanctioned/insured launch? What if I'm on public lands, where I know - and/or have verbally confirmed - that I have permission to use the land. Do I still need to fill out this form, obtain the necessary BLM or whatever signatures, and submit to TRA?

 

[Five]

This question is for anyone who replied to this thread. Is this only HPR or can you be an average Joe wants launch some LPR for the first time with his son at a park?

 

[heada]

This question is for anyone who replied to this thread. Is this only HPR or can you be an average Joe wants launch some LPR for the first time with his son at a park?

You still have to follow the rules/regs but the list is smaller for non-HPR.

 

[tsmith1315]

What if I'm on public lands, where I know - and/or have verbally confirmed - that I have permission to use the land. Do I still need to fill out this form, obtain the necessary BLM or whatever signatures, and submit to TRA?

Good question. Before petitioning the FAA for a waiver over public land in my name, I'd want to have permission in writing. So I would say that makes sense.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Right, I see that. But is filling out and submitting this form to TRA a prerequisite to having a sanctioned/insured launch? What if I'm on public lands, where I know - and/or have verbally confirmed - that I have permission to use the land. Do I still need to fill out this form, obtain the necessary BLM or whatever signatures, and submit to TRA?

It would be best to have the permission in writing. That’s for your protection. I don’t use the Landowner Authorization form but I have a letter of permission from BLM and I make sure they receive an insurance certificate each year.

 

[Pat Gordzelik]

Nope, as Tim posted above, Tripoli Members can launch rockets independently of any club and still be covered by Tripoli insurance. They just have to follow all the rules.

Thanks for reiterating that guys.
When I was administering TRA insurance for a decade I had to put that message on speed dial when I was asked that question, especially by older members who had been lead to believe there was no coverage outside of a Prefecture (organized and/or sanctioned). TRA insurance covers members engaged in ‘rocket activity’, as long as the Safety Code is adhered to.
Every year at renewal time I would have to submit to the underwriters a copy of our Safety Code, and any codicil changes, as well as financial responsibility. Sometimes I would also submit a third party risk assessment, but that is another story.

 

[Pat Gordzelik]

It would be best to have the permission in writing. That’s for your protection. I don’t use the Landowner Authorization form but I have a letter of permission from BLM and I make sure they receive an insurance certificate each year.

Steve, I’m not sure who, if anyone, handles the info for any “Named Insured” certificates from the insurance company these days but when I was doing it I had a liaison rep at the insurance company I worked with that sent out certificates to the landowners at the beginning of every insurance year. That was, as you said, for the fliers protection, and also to assure the landowner they were indeed covered by the insurance.
Kelly, does that help?
Pat G

 

[Kelly]

Kelly, does that help?

A bit; I appreciate all the input I'm getting, but I'm getting mixed messages . On the one hand, I hear you saying that "TRA insurance covers members engaged in ‘rocket activity’, as long as the Safety Code is adhered to. " But then you go on to talk about obtaining "Named Insured" certificates from the insurance company.

So, if I go out some weekend on public land, follow all the TRA safety rules, and I know that I have approval from BLM (or whoever) and FAA to do what I'm doing, but have not obtained any written permission, nor submitted any paperwork to the TRA, does TRA insurance cover me? Note that I'm not worried about the 'landowner' being covered, I'm worried about ME being covered. I know it's "nice" to have things in writing, etc. etc. but I'm trying to figure the minimum requirements.

Sorry to beat on this - I'm not just being pedantic, I'm genuinely interested in doing impromptu launches on public lands. And, my experience with insurance has usually been that if you have to ask whether or not you're insured for something, you're probably not!

 

[Pat Gordzelik]

A bit; I appreciate all the input I'm getting, but I'm getting mixed messages . On the one hand, I hear you saying that "TRA insurance covers members engaged in ‘rocket activity’, as long as the Safety Code is adhered to. " But then you go on to talk about obtaining "Named Insured" certificates from the insurance company.

So, if I go out some weekend on public land, follow all the TRA safety rules, and I know that I have approval from BLM (or whoever) and FAA to do what I'm doing, but have not obtained any written permission, nor submitted any paperwork to the TRA, does TRA insurance cover me? Note that I'm not worried about the 'landowner' being covered, I'm worried about ME being covered. I know it's "nice" to have things in writing, etc. etc. but I'm trying to figure the minimum requirements.

Sorry to beat on this - I'm not just being pedantic, I'm genuinely interested in doing impromptu launches on public lands. And, my experience with insurance has usually been that if you have to ask whether or not you're insured for something, you're probably not!

Yep, I hear ya, the website makes requirements “clear as mud”. I believe that is being addressed, look for changes.
But in the meantime, to make sure “YOU” are covered, you need assurances (or I would myself,) that you have permission to fly off the location. If something catches on fire as the result of your rocketry activity, and if the location AHJ or landowner says “this dude never had permission to do this, he’s a trespasser” the insurance company is gonna say your sol.
So as Steve mentioned, having written permission is for your protection. And of course, the key to the kingdom on getting that permission is to be able to show the land authority you/they are insured.

 

[Steve Shannon]

A bit; I appreciate all the input I'm getting, but I'm getting mixed messages . On the one hand, I hear you saying that "TRA insurance covers members engaged in ‘rocket activity’, as long as the Safety Code is adhered to. " But then you go on to talk about obtaining "Named Insured" certificates from the insurance company.

So, if I go out some weekend on public land, follow all the TRA safety rules, and I know that I have approval from BLM (or whoever) and FAA to do what I'm doing, but have not obtained any written permission, nor submitted any paperwork to the TRA, does TRA insurance cover me? Note that I'm not worried about the 'landowner' being covered, I'm worried about ME being covered. I know it's "nice" to have things in writing, etc. etc. but I'm trying to figure the minimum requirements.

Sorry to beat on this - I'm not just being pedantic, I'm genuinely interested in doing impromptu launches on public lands. And, my experience with insurance has usually been that if you have to ask whether or not you're insured for something, you're probably not!

Here's what the Safety Code says:
Sanctioned Launch. A sanctioned launch is a Tripoli Insured Launch. Any Sanctioned Launch shall meet ALL of the following requirements:
• Responsible person of launch shall be member of Tripoli in good standing.
• Follows the appropriate Tripoli Safety Code.
• All AHJ (e.g. FAA waiver) requirements/regulations met and any required permits secured.
• Landowner permission has been formally obtained.

Those are the minimum requirements. I underlined the word formally. To me, that means written permission.
Second, we should all worry about the landowners being covered. One of the most significant challenges rocketry is facing right now is loss of launch sites. The peace of mind that accompanies insurance coverage is just one small way for us to keep relations with landowners positive.

 

[Kelly]

Second, we should all worry about the landowners being covered.

Yes, in a general sense, I completely agree. But, at the moment that I press the button, MY foremost responsibility is to make sure I am covered. It's the landowners responsibility to make sure HE is covered (and if he does this by making me show written proof of insurance before granting permission, then so be it - completely understandable). But again, I'm more interested in HOW I make sure that I (and the landowner) are covered.
Maybe my confusion stemmed from the source I was using for "Sanctioned Launch" definition. At http://www.tripoli.org/InsuranceFAQ (where I was looking), the landowner permission bullet just says

4. Landowner permission/constraints followed​

​

This is different from what you quoted, which appears to be a stricter definition.

​

 

[Steve Shannon]

Yes, in a general sense, I completely agree. But, at the moment that I press the button, MY foremost responsibility is to make sure I am covered. It's the landowners responsibility to make sure HE is covered (and if he does this by making me show written proof of insurance before granting permission, then so be it - completely understandable). But again, I'm more interested in HOW I make sure that I (and the landowner) are covered.
Maybe my confusion stemmed from the source I was using for "Sanctioned Launch" definition. At http://www.tripoli.org/InsuranceFAQ (where I was looking), the landowner permission bullet just says

4. Landowner permission/constraints followed​

​

This is different from what you quoted, which appears to be a stricter definition.

​

Mine was taken directly from the High Power Safety Code, so it's the official requirement. As Pat says we need to make the website clearer, but it's always best to refer to the Safety Code verbiage.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Have any of you flown privately / unsanctioned?

"I could tell you, but . . ."

Dave F.