On price increases re. minimum wage increase

[boatgeek]

another thing I think needs to be said, is:

when I grew up, your 'entry level job' or part time work while in school was a job to help make ends meet. Not be the start to independent living. I had room mates thru most of my 20's and even in my early 30's (The 'room-mate' soon switch to 'girlfriend' then 'wife'..)

Another thing that hasn't gotten much attention here is that 30 years ago, you could go to a state university on a part-time job during the school year and a full time summer job and have little or no debt. Those days are long in the past. Now, unless your parents started saving the day you were born (or are independently wealthy), it's very difficult to get a college degree without debt.

 

[jderimig]

Another thing that hasn't gotten much attention here is that 30 years ago, you could go to a state university on a part-time job during the school year and a full time summer job and have little or no debt. Those days are long in the past. Now, unless your parents started saving the day you were born (or are independently wealthy), it's very difficult to get a college degree without debt.

Blame gov student loan programs.

 

[rharshberger]

Another thing that hasn't gotten much attention here is that 30 years ago, you could go to a state university on a part-time job during the school year and a full time summer job and have little or no debt. Those days are long in the past. Now, unless your parents started saving the day you were born (or are independently wealthy), it's very difficult to get a college degree without debt.

30 years ago a degree actually meant your were educated today it just means you went to 4 years of advanced high school and were indoctrinated, unless you get a degree like engineering or medical. I know way to many people with Recreation Management degrees, Philosophy, etc who's only real qualifications are to be a barista for Starbutts. My father has always said that a degree only proves one thing...that you managed to get through college. I am not dissing getting a degree, but people need to get degrees in something that will earn them a living and be motivated enough to as Big Weld said in Robots "See a Need, Fill a Need", nothing should be given to anyone, get out and work for it.

 

[OverTheTop]

Not true- minimum wage means it doesn't matter where I work, everyone pays the same for that entry level job. A maximum wage would do the same, in that a CEO would make the same amount of money no matter which company they work for. If you want to tie their compensation to the company's market value, then you should do the same for ALL jobs at that company. Wages outside of executive compensation have been stagnant for decades, which is why I used the term exploiting. Pay and compensation are out of balance.

I am lucky enough to work for a company that does this. I reasonable percentage of profit is put towards bonuses for employees. The higher the gross margin, the more bonus we get. There is a flat proportion of the pool that goes to everyone, and the remainder is allocated on a performance basis. I am lucky to work for such a good company. It USA-based but has about 16k workers worldwide.

Now the Fed and Gov need to do their part and stop interfering with the laws of economics before it destroys everything.

Laws of economics? Astrology was invented to give economists credibility. Trying to predict effects of actions on econimies at anything other than a large scale is fraught with unpredictability. A complex system with sensitive dependence on initial conditions. Chaotic behaviour.

 

[Dugway]

Soviet Union proved pure communism doesn’t work

I remember taking a class on Communism back in college. The instructor was a true believer, lived in a local commune, etc. He loved to tell the students that the Soviets gave up on Communism just a year or two early. If they could have held out a bit longer, computer and AI technology would have been good enough to actually have a functional, but completely planned, economy. I guess we'll never find out...

Also, we've been trying to hire engineers here for almost a year, with VERY little success. I blame it on the fact that we are 100% back in the office. People would rather work from home.

 

[rfjustin]

I remember taking a class on Communism back in college. The instructor was a true believer, lived in a local commune, etc. He loved to tell the students that the Soviets gave up on Communism just a year or two early. If they could have held out a bit longer, computer and AI technology would have been good enough to actually have a functional, but completely planned, economy. I guess we'll never find out...

Also, we've been trying to hire engineers here for almost a year, with VERY little success. I blame it on the fact that we are 100% back in the office. People would rather work from home.

If you have a 100% work from office policy, you will not attract or retain talent. I'm a firm believer in face to face collaboration, but times have truly changed. I embrace a hybrid model, 2 days in the office, 3 at home, best of both worlds. I'm thankful I work in insurance, there are WAY more jobs than people to fill them, which increases my worth in the marketplace. That and I like to think I know what the hell I'm doing.

 

[jderimig]

Laws of economics? Astrology was invented to give economists credibility. Trying to predict effects of actions on econimies at anything other than a large scale is fraught with unpredictability. A complex system with sensitive dependence on initial conditions. Chaotic behaviour.

There are some basic Laws of Economics that are without dispute.
1. Government actions results in a misallocation of capital. Always.
2. Price will naturally reach a level that balances supply and demand.
3. Monetation of debt transfers wealth from the lower economic classes to the upper economic classes.

 

[OverTheTop]

There are some basic Laws of Economics that are without dispute.
1. Government actions results in a misallocation of capital. Always.
2. Price will naturally reach a level that balances supply and demand.
3. Monetation of debt transfers wealth from the lower economic classes to the upper economic classes.

Agreed. All effects at large scales.

 

[boatgeek]

There are some basic Laws of Economics that are without dispute.
1. Government actions results in a misallocation of capital. Always.
...

"Misallocation" is pejorative. By a reasonable reading of your law, taxation to build public roads is a misallocation of capital. What would you prefer instead? That every road be a privately-owned toll road?

"Reallocation" I could definitely get behind.

 

[jderimig]

"Misallocation" is pejorative. By a reasonable reading of your law, taxation to build public roads is a misallocation of capital. What would you prefer instead? That every road be a privately-owned toll road?

"Reallocation" I could definitely get behind.

Sometimes misallocation results in benefits, but its still misallocation.

 

[les]

Blame gov student loan programs.

Not certain about Student Loan programs. I do have an issue why the cost for a college education has risen twice as fast as inflation. From when I went to college to now, average inflation was around 3% but college costs rose 6%. My final year of college was about half of my starting salary (and my student debt was also about half). Today a year of college costs more than the starting salaries? And student debt is generally 2X the starting salaries. Why??

30 years ago a degree actually meant your were educated today it just means you went to 4 years of advanced high school and were indoctrinated, unless you get a degree like engineering or medical. I know way to many people with Recreation Management degrees, Philosophy, etc who's only real qualifications are to be a barista for Starbutts. My father has always said that a degree only proves one thing...that you managed to get through college. I am not dissing getting a degree, but people need to get degrees in something that will earn them a living and be motivated enough to as Big Weld said in Robots "See a Need, Fill a Need", nothing should be given to anyone, get out and work for it.

I also agree there has been too much hype to get a college education, and too many people are getting degrees with little options for future employment. There are many professions, most of them hurting for people, that do not require college degrees. People need to understand just what they will be able to do with their degree, or if then would be better off in a trade that does not require a degree and not have a ton of student loan debt.

 

[Sandy H.]

I 'put myself through college.' To be clear, that means my parents paid a portion of the first semester and every semester after that I paid. I had one $500 'scholarship' for one semester, but that just meant that the correct paperwork got filled out and I got picked out of the stack, not that I 'earned' it. I think it was about $1500/semester for classes (+ books, obviously) but not a full-ride or anything like that and we had to be campus residents for the first year and that added $7500+ just to be allowed to go.

I had to bail out after maxing out my credit cards (two) after the third semester.

I managed to get the 4th semester as a co-op, so still had to pay a few hundred dollars, but I made money. I was able to go back for a real 4th semester after extending the co-op based on summer/fall semesters. After that, all money was gone and school was out.

I went full-time with the company who offered the co-op for the next 3 years and that gave me the ability to apply and be accepted to their continuing education program, which paid 100% for A's, 75% for B's and 50% for C's, nothing else. I went part-time school while working full-time for the next 5 years and got my engineering degree. Honestly, the last 7 years were easy (in general) as the job experience made me more knowledgeable and better prepared than late teens trying to get an engineering degree. (I graduated at 27-28 years old with a bunch of people that were 22-23. Every new group that came in made it past me for a few years since I was only doing 12 hours/semester vs the standard 15-18. . .).

Bottom line: I would still be subject to debt if I had done what many in my original class did - loans. I finished school with zero school debt and was at zero (non-mortgage) debt a year later. I am also zero mortgage debt by now, but that's many years later. Either way, the cancer of college loans would have kept me in hundreds-of-thousands of dollars of debit to this day if I had gone that route.

Did I actually 'put myself through college?' No, my company reimbursed me for performance, so I met the objectives and the debt was repaid at the end of each semester. I don't consider that a handout, but if I had to do it all myself, then pumping gas would have likely been a better idea and everything is self-serve here. . .

I feel bad for anyone saddled with college debit that thought it wasn't real debit. It is and you start way behind the 8-ball.

Sandy.

 

[MJW]

How many scientists, engineers, nurses/doctors, lawyers, teachers, and research professors never went to college? Do you really want a society where everyone is a trades person, laborer, customer service agent, or manager? College should be free for anyone who wants to better themselves and society. Yes, that includes the humanities/liberal arts. There is a societal benefit provided when our youth are educated in so called economically unviable fields of study.

 

[Ez2cDave]

.

 

[les]

How many scientists, engineers, nurses/doctors, lawyers, teachers, and research professors never went to college? Do you really want a society where everyone is a trades person, laborer, customer service agent, or manager? College should be free for anyone who wants to better themselves and society. Yes, that includes the humanities/liberal arts. There is a societal benefit provided when our youth are educated in so called economically unviable fields of study.

Back in the 70's where someone could start out as a drafting assistant and then progress up and finally become an engineer? Many.
Today? At least for engineers in our facility (with over 800 engineers) you MUST have a degree (in engineering, math, computer science, etc.) to be an engineer. There have been a rare few special cases where they have considered on the job experience and bumped someone up, but I would say less than a handful got that privilege. I can't speak for other companies and their policies for engineers, nor for any of the other professions you mentioned (although I believe in our state you need a degree to be a teacher. Otherwise they are an assistant that requires working with a teacher with a degree.)

And no, I don't want everyone to be a trades person, just as I don't believe everyone needs a degree - especially with college loan debt. Not trying to pick, but this is kind of an indication of some of the problems today here. There is too much ALL or NOTHING. There needs to be plumbers, carpenters, electricians, truck drivers, etc in this world. We also need doctors, engineers, teachers, scientists, etc. The secret magic is having that right blend. There is too much push for people to get a degree, and the trades are hurting for people. But that does not mean shut down all the colleges so no one gets a degree so everyone is a trades person.

Free for anyone? - I do believe there should be some sliding scale based on need (should a billionaire's child get a free ride?) and grades/effort. Sandy above indicated how their company reimbursed based on performance (100% for A, 75% for B, etc). Should someone who just wants to stretch out an education and "live off the system" forever get a free ride? I recall when I went there were some "professional students" that slacked off, took minimum credits, and had no interest in actually graduating. They were on their 7th year for a 4 year degree, and not just going part time because they had a real job. I knew another person who had no interest in becoming an engineer, but his parents forced him. He failed every class on purpose so he could tell his parents he "tried", but now "I want to do what I wanted to do in the first place" (which was to be a telephone repairman and not an engineer).

And sorry, I do not agree there is a "societal benefit" for someone to have a degree in 18th century Bulgarian Flute Music (and I sincerely apologize to any flutists, Bulgarians, musicians, or anyone from the 18th century that I may have offended by this random selection). Based on what is happening in today's society, there are many educated people that don't appear to actually use their brain..... Just my personal opinion

 

[dhbarr]

There is more to life than survival. The purpose of the humanities is in the title.

 

[Pat Gordzelik]

Back in the 70's where someone could start out as a drafting assistant and then progress up and finally become an engineer? Many.
Today? At least for engineers in our facility (with over 800 engineers) you MUST have a degree (in engineering, math, computer science, etc.) to be an engineer. There have been a rare few special cases where they have considered on the job experience and bumped someone up, but I would say less than a handful got that privilege. I can't speak for other companies and their policies for engineers, nor for any of the other professions you mentioned (although I believe in our state you need a degree to be a teacher. Otherwise they are an assistant that requires working with a teacher with a degree.)

And no, I don't want everyone to be a trades person, just as I don't believe everyone needs a degree - especially with college loan debt. Not trying to pick, but this is kind of an indication of some of the problems today here. There is too much ALL or NOTHING. There needs to be plumbers, carpenters, electricians, truck drivers, etc in this world. We also need doctors, engineers, teachers, scientists, etc. The secret magic is having that right blend. There is too much push for people to get a degree, and the trades are hurting for people. But that does not mean shut down all the colleges so no one gets a degree so everyone is a trades person.

Free for anyone? - I do believe there should be some sliding scale based on need (should a billionaire's child get a free ride?) and grades/effort. Sandy above indicated how their company reimbursed based on performance (100% for A, 75% for B, etc). Should someone who just wants to stretch out an education and "live off the system" forever get a free ride? I recall when I went there were some "professional students" that slacked off, took minimum credits, and had no interest in actually graduating. They were on their 7th year for a 4 year degree, and not just going part time because they had a real job. I knew another person who had no interest in becoming an engineer, but his parents forced him. He failed every class on purpose so he could tell his parents he "tried", but now "I want to do what I wanted to do in the first place" (which was to be a telephone repairman and not an engineer).

And sorry, I do not agree there is a "societal benefit" for someone to have a degree in 18th century Bulgarian Flute Music (and I sincerely apologize to any flutists, Bulgarians, musicians, or anyone from the 18th century that I may have offended by this random selection). Based on what is happening in today's society, there are many educated people that don't appear to actually use their brain..... Just my personal opinion

 

[boomtube-mk2]

Laws of economics? Astrology was invented to give economists credibility. Trying to predict effects of actions on econimies at anything other than a large scale is fraught with unpredictability. A complex system with sensitive dependence on initial conditions. Chaotic behaviour.

I don't believe in Astrology. But then again, I'm a Cancer so that's to be expected.

 

[Bravo52]

If you have a 100% work from office policy, you will not attract or retain talent. I'm a firm believer in face to face collaboration, but times have truly changed. I embrace a hybrid model, 2 days in the office, 3 at home, best of both worlds. I'm thankful I work in insurance, there are WAY more jobs than people to fill them, which increases my worth in the marketplace. That and I like to think I know what the hell I'm doing.

Can't work from home when the topic/specialty/job requires a security clearance.

 

[Banzai88]

Can't work from home when the topic/specialty/job requires a security clearance.

Patently false supposition. My position requires a relatively high level security clearance and constant internet and .mil systems access. Last year we teleworked using our CAC login on privately owned assets with better connectivity and fleet support results than the computer that's inside the firewall sitting on my desk at my office.

Due to various regional Covid restrictions coming and going, we've transitioned to and from telework several times in the recent past, too.

 

[Bravo52]

Patently false supposition.

So are you saying you worked on classified material, had classified discussions and coordinated classified activity at home on "on privately owned assets?" Hmmmm....no, I didn't think so.

So to say it's a "Patently false supposition" is quite wrong. You probably did "unclassified" stuff at home but had to go in for the good stuff (or it didn't get done). Otherwise, I think you need to turn yourself in to OSI...

 

[Banzai88]

So are you saying you worked on classified material, had classified discussions and coordinated classified activity at home on "on privately owned assets?" Hmmmm....no, I didn't think so.

So to say it's a "Patently false supposition" is quite wrong. You probably did "unclassified" stuff at home but had to go in for the good stuff (or it didn't get done). Otherwise, I think you need to turn yourself in to OSI...

You DO realize that Classified has many different strata from NOFORN all the way though TS SCI, don't you? Unless you know the details of how each position is set up, and the modern IT compartmentalization, you have no idea what you're talking about.

In my case, 'the good stuff', anything that was of a certain necessary classification, was handled on a .mil asset.....at home, in my living room, with the same CAC login protocol, and was well and truly sanctioned by my .mil program office, just like tens of thousands of other .mil and .gov and .civ contractor assets that I share communications and assets with.

So, YES, even security clearance required jobs can be done telework given the proper assets, protocols, and permissions.

 

[Bravo52]

You DO realize that Classified has many different strata from NOFORN all the way though TS SCI, don't you?

Probably better than you do...

 

[rfjustin]

Can't work from home when the topic/specialty/job requires a security clearance.

Which is interesting because I know 3 people that do exactly that, from home, in secure rooms, but I digest....

 

[Banzai88]

Probably better than you do...

Perhaps. But what do I know? I've only had various security clearances for going on 30 years now active duty and .civ.

What I DO know FOR CERTAIN is that it's ENTIRELY possible, probable, and legal to do .gov work that requires a security clearance via telework given the proper assets, permissions, and access.

 

[Bravo52]

Which is interesting because I know 3 people that do exactly that, from home, in secure rooms, but I digest....

Sure there are always special cases. "Secure" rooms has a very distinct connotation. It means they've been inspected and approved by appropriate agencies. There are some GOs in DOD and some SMs in DOE that have that capability but the numbers are very few (relative.) Talking FOUO or CUI as it is now doesn't rise to the level...

 

[Bravo52]

Perhaps. But what do I know? I've only had various security clearances for going on 30 years now active duty and .civ.

How long you've "had various security clearances for going on 30 years now" means about as much as me saying I've had/have every clearance available... for the last 30 years of active duty and 6 years as a civ contractor. By the way, "NOFORN" is a caveat not a classification.

 

[rfjustin]

How long you've "had various security clearances for going on 30 years now" means about as much as me saying I've had/have every clearance available... for the last 30 years of active duty and 6 years as a civ contractor. By the way, "NOFORN" is a caveat not a classification.

You know more than us all, roger that...

 

[mo2872]

Oh yeah??? Well, my dad can beat up your dads!!!!!! /sarc : poke:

 

[Bravo52]

You know more than us all, roger that...

Probably about some things and likely not about others... Someone saying they work on classified material at home brings a lot of scrutiny in a community that routinely handles classified material. Casually saying you know 3 people that have "secure rooms in their house" actually means something to people who know about that stuff and know that it's not common. Those that don't know details about such things now might think it is...sorta bordering on fake news. Talking about it on a hobby board is questionable too...