My turn for the "I want a rocket company" quarterly thread..... but different(ish)

[jqavins]

I'm not ready to spend six figures on $15k worth of body tubes and nose cones just because the designs are included.

Holy Crap, of course not! I was thinking that designs ready to go (and that includes the part lists, packaging requirements, and all the stuff needed to press the GO button) would add, I don't know, $5K to $15K, or maybe even $20K to $30K; certainly not six figures. And not because getting a kit ready is hard, but just because it takes time.

 

[shockie]

hey prfesser......just out of curiosity if a person was to create a BP rocket motor right at the limit of 62.5g and it ran at a chamber pressure of say 500 psi , which might increase the Isp to say 110-120 what kind of total impulse might be possible?

The first question a political candidate gets asked is "why are you running for this seat?" One of the first questions a consultant asks when deciding whether to sign up with a candidate is "why you and not someone else?"

Those questions are both pretty relevant to starting a new business. I briefly thought of starting a small kit business but I couldn't really get past both of those. I would have had weird stuff that I liked (Charizards and batwings and tuna fins), but I couldn't really see that it had the addressable market needed to sustain even a hobby sideline business. The one with the large potential addressable market was waaaaay too much work.

plus in today's world, everybody has been Amazoned...ie next day service...... I admit I've had a Amazon prime acct for about 5 years now...I'm sorry.... I recently ordered rocketry stuff from about 5 different vendors,.....and the stuff took a whole week to get here.......and it was kinda pleasing to anticipate something once again and not have instant gratification....

 

[Cape Byron]

That leads into a question I like to ask of anybody looking to start (acquiring is close enough in this case) a company. Why? What is it that you have to offer that's different from what everybody else is offering? Sure, my tendency to ask "Why are you doing this" probably stems from my gut reaction of "Why the hell would you do this?!" yet I think it's a valid question all the same.

I'm sure we all think we have something different to offer. Why do our wives marry us instead of that other guy? Why are there new bands starting up every day in every city? We had Jimi Hendrix, we don't need another guitar hero... Or do we?

Unless your company churns out 3/4FNC kits and nothing else, I don't think you do have anything to offer. You will never compete with a company the size of Estes on production costs. Companies that produce 3/4FNC stuff need another product line to be interesting.

Estes brings people into the hobby, can't deny that. They also make safe and reliable motors available at a cost that none of us could ever match, with the exception of someone the size of Aerotech. Motors also make money, much more money than kits, but the investment costs in equipment and meeting regulations means we don't see a plethora of motor manufacturers.

But people do want something different. Hell, even Kevlar recovery was exotic 20 years ago. Quest do it, Estes still don't. Is the reason that it'd better not to, or that 2 feet of Kevlar costs money? I don't really have the answer.

Baffles are different. Small manufacturers do it, Estes, for the main part, doesn't.

How many rear eject kits come from the big manufacturers? How many parachute variations (X-form, gliding, hemispherical)?

Small run kit manufacturers are different. They worry less about their bottom line because it isn't their main source of income. It's a passion.

Note, I'm not saying that large manufacturers lack passion, but that their passion must be tempered with economic restraint. If I sell 20 kits of one design, I consider it a major hit. If Estes sell 5,000 of one design in the same period it's a major flop.

I sold over 100 vintage kits over two years to fund Cape Byron Rocketry. In fact, the original idea was to sell the kit collection and start trials motorcycle riding. But the passion those old kits gave me... amazing. I dragged out my old note books (which were destined for the bin) and started designing. Remaking old contacts and making new ones. Getting out there and actually flying again.

I'm sure Estes and Quest love small run kit producers. We aren't competing against them and our customers are buying their motors.

Win for us, win for them, win for customers.

Anyhoo... pardon the early morning ramble. I need a second cup of coffee...

 

[jqavins]

On the subject of motors, if that might be a way you'd like to go, I have two thoughts.

Many folks here miss the old Estes and Centuri B14s...

Also desired by many folks here are the Klima motors from Germany... One possibility might be to license the "formula" from Klima and produce them locally.

Either the B14 or the Klima motors would offer a high thrust option in 18 mm, direct stagable engines, and that would be awesome.

[Estes] also make[s] safe and reliable motors available at a cost that none of us could ever match, with the exception of someone the size of Aerotech. Motors also make money, much more money than kits, but the investment costs in equipment and meeting regulations means we don't see a plethora of motor manufacturers...

I need a second cup of coffee.

When I wrote the above, I neglected to think about certain realities that I actually am aware of. Why, even Apogee outsources the manufacture of there Medalist motors to Aerotech. I guess I was letting my fantasies leak over into my brainstorming. (Oh, I really want those motors!)

I just poured my second cup of coffee.

 

[Philip Tiberius D.]

I'm sure we all think we have something different to offer. Why do our wives marry us instead of that other guy? Why are there new bands starting up every day in every city? We had Jimi Hendrix, we don't need another guitar hero... Or do we?

Unless your company churns out 3/4FNC kits and nothing else, I don't think you do have anything to offer. You will never compete with a company the size of Estes on production costs. Companies that produce 3/4FNC stuff need another product line to be interesting.

Estes brings people into the hobby, can't deny that. They also make safe and reliable motors available at a cost that none of us could ever match, with the exception of someone the size of Aerotech. Motors also make money, much more money than kits, but the investment costs in equipment and meeting regulations means we don't see a plethora of motor manufacturers.

But people do want something different. Hell, even Kevlar recovery was exotic 20 years ago. Quest do it, Estes still don't. Is the reason that it'd better not to, or that 2 feet of Kevlar costs money? I don't really have the answer.

Baffles are different. Small manufacturers do it, Estes, for the main part, doesn't.

How many rear eject kits come from the big manufacturers? How many parachute variations (X-form, gliding, hemispherical)?

Small run kit manufacturers are different. They worry less about their bottom line because it isn't their main source of income. It's a passion.

Note, I'm not saying that large manufacturers lack passion, but that their passion must be tempered with economic restraint. If I sell 20 kits of one design, I consider it a major hit. If Estes sell 5,000 of one design in the same period it's a major flop.

I sold over 100 vintage kits over two years to fund Cape Byron Rocketry. In fact, the original idea was to sell the kit collection and start trials motorcycle riding. But the passion those old kits gave me... amazing. I dragged out my old note books (which were destined for the bin) and started designing. Remaking old contacts and making new ones. Getting out there and actually flying again.

I'm sure Estes and Quest love small run kit producers. We aren't competing against them and our customers are buying their motors.

Win for us, win for them, win for customers.

Anyhoo... pardon the early morning ramble. I need a second cup of coffee...

Found a Longreach kit, kinda cool with the 3 logo, do you have any others left for sale?

 

[dr wogz]

I think a lot of us have thought about (at least) doing a kit run of a personal design, as opposed to starting a full fledged "company".

We saw (and coached) Andrew with his 'ARS' endeavour.. I thin ka few have a good grasp of what is involved in producing "kits" but many (I feel) have only a basic understanding,

I've thought about it, I've considered it..

But:

• Selling & marketing, Website maintenance & "webstore" headaches.. And being able to process credit cards & PayPal ($$)
• Not in the US (I'm Canadian, so 90% of my sales would be US bound)
• Most of my supplies / stock / parts would be coming from the US (Tubes & NCs mainly)

the web presence / store is my biggest hindrance..

 

[hball55]

What about Public Enemy, Vaughn Brothers, or Yank Enterprises?

 

[neil_w]

the web presence / store is my biggest hindrance..

...which is presumably why some just sell through eBay.

 

[jqavins]

I think a lot of us have thought about (at least) doing a kit run of a personal design, as opposed to starting a full fledged "company".

Say, there's a thought for the something different that a new company could do. Maybe. If it's not a dumb idea, which it may well be.

Other people's designs. Sort of a continuous design of the month contest. Take flight proven designs, pick some to make in short runs, and keep making those that sell well. State in big letters up front that designers will receive little or no payment for the short run, and only a small, one time payment if their designs go into production. You'll receive some novel designs that you know will fly off the pad, then test to see if they "fly off the shelf", so to speak.

(I'll submit my Triple-V once it's build and flown.)

 

[dr wogz]

...which is presumably why some just sell through eBay.

and just highlights why I won't! ( ) didn't even think of this..

 

[neil_w]

Other people's designs. Sort of a continuous design of the month contest. Take flight proven designs, pick some to make in short runs, and keep making those that sell well. State in big letters up front that designers will receive little or no payment for the short run, and only a small, one time payment if their designs go into production. You'll receive some novel designs that you know will fly off the pad, then test to see if they "fly off the shelf", so to speak.

I think that the problem is that coming up with a design is actually the easy part. Creating instructions and packaging the kits is more work. That is presumably why I've had so little luck getting any nibbles from kit vendors on my designs: I'm offering to do the easy part, and asking them to do all the grunt work.

 

[dr wogz]

To quote a friend, and an Engineering mantra: "Ideas are easy, implementation is hard"

Some have sold 'plan packs' (Excelsior did this with a few of their 'gooney decal sets)
Getting fins & CRs laser cut is fairly easy. Tubes & NCs are hard.

And, especially for 'LPR': many expect a kit to the level of Estes or .. [open bag, squirt in glue, shake, open bag: instant rocket, fully assembled] no one really wants / has time for a "builder's kit" (except soem of us..) Also, the ability of the builder themselves. We may look at Estes' Odyssey or a Fliskit as a 'challenge' where others will see it as a nightmare!

It would be nice if a vendor, who has a lot of the infrastructure established, would step up and ask for some proven designs for a limited run. That, I think would help get some of the 'basement designer's names known.. (As ARS did..)

(How did Shrox start out?!)

 

[0011001100]

Say, there's a thought for the something different that a new company could do. Maybe. If it's not a dumb idea, which it may well be.

Other people's designs. Sort of a continuous design of the month contest. Take flight proven designs, pick some to make in short runs, and keep making those that sell well. State in big letters up front that designers will receive little or no payment for the short run, and only a small, one time payment if their designs go into production. You'll receive some novel designs that you know will fly off the pad, then test to see if they "fly off the shelf", so to speak.

(I'll submit my Triple-V once it's build and flown.)

Hmmmmm this is an interesting idea actually. Someone runs the website and store and other contribute with designs and instructions.

I don't think it would actually work too well at first but it is neat. Once I can have access to my lathe again I was already thinking of making my own website for it (already manage one site though that one doesn't have a store). I would likely run my "store" like Chris at Eggtimer. I just have seen a lot of failed attempts recently and so it is discouraging for making kits.

 

[jqavins]

I think that the problem is that coming up with a design is actually the easy part. Creating instructions and packaging the kits is more work. That is presumably why I've had so little luck getting any nibbles from kit vendors on my designs: I'm offering to do the easy part, and asking them to do all the grunt work.

I did think about that - after posting. The thought came that a submission of a design with instructions of sufficient quality would have an advantage, and it could even be a requirement. This thought came immediately on the heals of thinking that when I submit Triple-V I would include instructions.

Also, the idea was not mainly about saving the new company the work. Even with the instructions included in the submission, there is still plenty of hard work left. However, all that hard work has to be done no matter what, and isn't really any harder with a submitted design than with an in house one. The point is that taking submissions will bring in a greater number of really different, innovative designs than one person (OK, Neil, most people) would come up with alone. I suspect that the main reason you haven't got more nibbles is that using outside designs is not what the existing companies do. If one wants to have a company that does something which isn't what other companies do, then maybe this could be it. And anyone thinking of starting such a company should look at your build threads; I have no doubt that if it were someone's business model, someone who is gearing up to do that hard parts in any case, you'd get plenty of nibbles.

As for "just add glue and shake" kits, I seriously doubt anyone can compete with Estes and Quest in that sector. I'm surprised Quest manages to stick it out. So any new rocketry business has to look elsewhere for its niche.

 

[neil_w]

outside designs is not what the existing companies do

This is undoubtedly true, for most of them.

 

[dhbarr]

If one of the large 501c3 clubs was pretty brave and had lots of volunteers and a permanent location owned by the club ( not a member ), potentially they could produce some designs.

Clearly this is just turning volunteer hours into low margin sales, but in theory it's a practical approach ( although it could easily tear a club apart ).

 

[jqavins]

But that wouldn't help Hans. (Remember Hans? This is a thread about Hans.)

 

[HHaase]

As for "just add glue and shake" kits, I seriously doubt anyone can compete with Estes and Quest in that sector. I'm surprised Quest manages to stick it out. So any new rocketry business has to look elsewhere for its niche.

Exactly. There's a glut of kit makers out there for just about every possible rocket you can think of. Hence my hesitation at pursuing the resurrection of a defunct kit manufacturer. Yet the more I dig, the more niches I find which are under-filled.

Here are some niches that I've identified but opted not to pursue for one reason or another.....
1: Composite (Fiberglass/Carbon/Kevlar) body tubes and nose cones. This whole high-power side of the hobby appears to be single sourced in that regard.
2: Mid-ranged launch equipment. They're out there but not as strong of a situation as I'd hope for.
3: Telemetry electronics, other than altimeters and tracking.
4: Club support and other admin type products. Stuff like log books, pre-printed flight cards, that kinda stuff.

But that wouldn't help Hans. (Remember Hans? This is a thread about Hans.)

I hate being so cryptic, but the only one that can help me move forward now is my banker. I need to call him again after lunch. Told me he'd get back to me this week. Can't say more than that at the moment.

 

[jqavins]

Well, please do let us know more when you can.

 

[Cape Byron]

I think that the problem is that coming up with a design is actually the easy part. Creating instructions and packaging the kits is more work. That is presumably why I've had so little luck getting any nibbles from kit vendors on my designs: I'm offering to do the easy part, and asking them to do all the grunt work.

Agreed.

Writing instructions, and creating the illustrations for them, is very time consuming. I've worked as a technical writer and it's much different to writing short stories and haiku. In fact the delays with the Apanina kit are mostly down to turning a page of construction notes into 16 odd pages of careful instructions and illustrations. I want what will probably be someone's first experience with rear-eject to be simple and successful. Unnecessary lawn darts don't usually bring return customers.

Another delay is, ridiculously, finding an appropriate size and strength of box for the kit and sourcing same box for less than the price of the body tubes. Cardboard boxes are expensive!

R&D is heaps of fun, and @neil_w is right, that really is the easy part.

 

[jqavins]

I'm not bragging to say that I'm a rather good technical writer. I wouldn't mind lending a hand now and then.

 

[Cape Byron]

I'm not bragging to say that I'm a rather good technical writer. I wouldn't mind lending a hand now and then.

If that offer extends to technical proofreading I might take you up on that.

 

[dr wogz]

I will admit that I have both technical & procedural writing on my resume, as well as technical illustration..

 

[Sheree]

To quote a friend, and an Engineering mantra: "Ideas are easy, implementation is hard"

Some have sold 'plan packs' (Excelsior did this with a few of their 'gooney decal sets)
Getting fins & CRs laser cut is fairly easy. Tubes & NCs are hard.

And, especially for 'LPR': many expect a kit to the level of Estes or .. [open bag, squirt in glue, shake, open bag: instant rocket, fully assembled] no one really wants / has time for a "builder's kit" (except soem of us..) Also, the ability of the builder themselves. We may look at Estes' Odyssey or a Fliskit as a 'challenge' where others will see it as a nightmare!

It would be nice if a vendor, who has a lot of the infrastructure established, would step up and ask for some proven designs for a limited run. That, I think would help get some of the 'basement designer's names known.. (As ARS did..)

(How did Shrox start out?!)

I think that this is an interesting idea. I'm willing to give those out there that have an interesting design a chance to see their rocket in kit form (at least in a BAH Builders Kit form). So here's the rules:

1) Submit your design to [email protected] with the header Design of the month contest.
2) Include a parts list, a dimensional drawing, photos of the completed model, results of your test flight(s), parachute size and motor(s) flown, building instructions, and any additional information you want to include.
3) Submission deadline is January 20th for a February kit release.
4) I'll pick the most interesting design, 3D CAD the required parts, 3D print them and offer them for sale during the month of February as ta builders kit of he custom design winner of the month.
5) We'll send out an email to our entire customer list promoting your design and include your bio.
6) If I pick your design you'll receive a signed copy of your Builders Kit by Sheree and Alex Boyce
7) At the beginning and end of February I'll post back to this thread the results of the contest including the winner, details and photos of the winning design and the number of kits sold.

Again, this is just a one time offer to test the waters regarding this idea. Believe me, we're already busy enough so I see this as a "make a wish come true" sort of experiment. I'll be interested in seeing how many submissions we receive (if any), how interesting the designs are, and if the rocketry community has an interest in seeing something like this on a regular basis. And remember, we're not limited to currently produced parts (other than available body tubes) so let's see what happens!

Alex Boyce

 

[RocketRev]

Here are some niches that I've identified but opted not to pursue for one reason or another.....
1: Composite (Fiberglass/Carbon/Kevlar) body tubes and nose cones. This whole high-power side of the hobby appears to be single sourced in that regard.
2: Mid-ranged launch equipment. They're out there but not as strong of a situation as I'd hope for.
3: Telemetry electronics, other than altimeters and tracking.
4: Club support and other admin type products. Stuff like log books, pre-printed flight cards, that kinda stuff.

Hello Hans,

I was wondering what you meant when you wrote #2 in your list of "niches" that you mentioned. What do you mean by mid-ranged launch equipment? Are you talking pads or launch systems?

Brad

 

[Cape Byron]

I think that this is an interesting idea. I'm willing to give those out there that have an interesting design a chance to see their rocket in kit form (at least in a BAH Builders Kit form). So here's the rules:

Very cool offer, Sheree and Alex.

 

[TheHulk]

Sheri sold her Hot Rockets stuff to Red Arrow many, many years ago. Red Arrow went out of business many years ago.

I still have a SHR Saturn 1B and Mercury Atlas to build (although I need some parts that I either mutilated or lost as I've had the kits in a state of disassembly for over a decade).

Red arrow only went out of business a couple years ago. He still shows up at launches trying to sell off what he has left.

 

[shockie]

If I had 6 figures to invest, I would contact Kilma Rockets in Germany and buy their North American Distributor/Agent rights. They have A-D size composite motors , actually KCIO3, ie Potassium Perchlorate / Sodium Benzoate. They are in the process of getting EF certified by BAM in Germany . And looking at producing the model aircraft Rapiers.

https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=19088&highlight=Kilma
https://www.raketenmodellbau-klima....enklima&SessionId=&a=catalog&t=23&c=712&p=712

 

[jqavins]

If that offer extends to technical proofreading I might take you up on that.

Certainly. PM me.

1) Submit your design to [email protected] with the header Design of the month contest.
2) Include a parts list, a dimensional drawing, photos of the completed model, results of your test flight(s), parachute size and motor(s) flown, building instructions, and any additional information you want to include.
3) Submission deadline is January 20th for a February kit release.
4) I'll pick the most interesting design, 3D CAD the required parts, 3D print them and offer them for sale during the month of February as ta builders kit of he custom design winner of the month.
5) We'll send out an email to our entire customer list promoting your design and include your bio.
6) If I pick your design you'll receive a signed copy of your Builders Kit by Sheree and Alex Boyce
7) At the beginning and end of February I'll post back to this thread the results of the contest including the winner, details and photos of the winning design and the number of kits sold.

The rules seem reasonable, but may I suggest one change. Run the sales in March, accepting submissions through February 20. 12 days seems like a really short time to prepare the submission, even for someone who's already built and flown a rocket. (And it's personally disappointing for me, as I almost certainly won't be able to complete the one I'd like to submit, even by February 20. But that's my problem, not yours.)

If I had 6 figures to invest, I would contact Kilma Rockets in Germany and buy their North American Distributor/Agent rights. They have A-D size composite motors , actually KCIO3, ie Potassium Perchlorate / Sodium Benzoate. They are in the process of getting EF certified by BAM in Germany .

From context, I assume that BAM is a German regulatory agency, and that EF certification means permission to sell the engines. I can tell you that Klima's composite engines are on store shelves (and web sites) in the EU and UK now, and have been for some time.

The beauty part of the Klima engines is that they are composites but direct stagable and there are -0 booster engines. That's a terrific advantage over what's on the market here, west of the Atlantic. Having a few more letter-number combinations to pick from is always nice, but having 18 mm D engines that can stage directly would be a game changer for some games. Are there enough such games to make a successful business of it? I don't know, and sadly I doubt it. But I want them!

 

[HHaase]

Hello Hans,

I was wondering what you meant when you wrote #2 in your list of "niches" that you mentioned. What do you mean by mid-ranged launch equipment? Are you talking pads or launch systems?

Brad

Mainly pads. It just seems there's the little bitty ESTES pads, and the next step up on the market is 50lbs of steel with a 1010 rail. It'd be nice to see something aimed at the hobby level guys which isn't plastic but is still easily portable, affordable and capable of handling low and mid power flights.

For controllers I'd say that same level of gear is a bit under-served still but at least there are options out there. I'm envisioning something that's easy for the new guy to use it without having to lug around a motorcycle battery. The Estes PS-II controller gets pretty close, but lacks a couple features I'd like to see.

I didn't forget your stuff by any means, I just consider the Wilson-F/X line to be a high-end option aimed at the club/group flyer market. I'm thinking of the guys who want something a few steps nicer than a starter set but aren't throwing 3" fiberglass birds.