Apogee Level 2 Build

[mtnmanak]

Where did you get your jigs or plans from? Looks like a great idea.

Macklin Missile Works: https://www.macklinmissileworks.com/

They will sell you the kits or the plans. I have the "small" and the "medium" versions. Those two jigs can accommodate BTs from about 1/2" up to 5" in diameter (although 5" is tight). For anything larger, you need their really big jig, which I do not have.

Apogee also sells some of the sizes, but they charge a premium over getting them straight from Macklin: https://www.apogeerockets.com/Building-Supplies/Tools/Guillotine-Fin-Jig

If you don't see what you need on Macklin's site, just email them, they will most likely make it for you, they are great to deal with.

 

[mtnmanak]

Seeing that video, I have a new respect for green masking tape's staying power on a nozzle under flame

Ha! True! I should have taken an "after" picture of the nozzle - the green tape had a big hole burned in it, but most of it was still stuck to the retainer.

In fact, if you look at the video I posted in the Darkstar Series thread of the 2.6" DS flight last weekend, you can see the green tape actually deflect the flame for a bit - tough stuff!

 

[rocketlabdelta]

Where did you get your jigs or plans from?

+1 for Macklin. I have the mid-sized jig and it’s great for my needs. They were very responsive over email.

 

[Antares JS]

It must be so nice to live in an area where you can launch all year. In New York we just had a blizzard.

So what's the problem? Just keep your batteries warm and it's all good.

 

[Nytrunner]

Ha! True! I should have taken an "after" picture of the nozzle - the green tape had a big hole burned in it, but most of it was still stuck to the retainer.

In fact, if you look at the video I posted in the Darkstar Series thread of the 2.6" DS flight last weekend, you can see the green tape actually deflect the flame for a bit - tough stuff!

I have had electrical tape stay on, and when I put ductape on plastc retainers to protect them from flame I'll often have a ring of it still on there, but the masking tape is a surprise!

 

[Hobie1dog]

looks like they didn't do a very good job on getting all four fins the same. I don't have any means to sand those fins down to be the same length as the shortest one, so they're going to have to remain different. I got ready to put them in the fin slots in the Mainframe and none of them would go in so it looks like I've got to sand open each one of them too.

 

[Hobie1dog]

Hope you don't mind me adding to your build thread, I'm not planning on adding on very many posts, So here it is a year later and I've just got the fins on the rocket Everything takes so GD long in my life now, but I figure once the fins are finished that the rest will go a lot faster. Here's the epoxy fillets, as i'm going to hate to cover them up as good as they turned out.

I'll go over them with Bondo spot and glazing putty using the ball Fondant tool. I'm going to try to have it finished by May, I might as well set a goal.

 

[mtnmanak]

looks like they didn't do a very good job on getting all four fins the same. I don't have any means to sand those fins down to be the same length as the shortest one, so they're going to have to remain different. I got ready to put them in the fin slots in the Mainframe and none of them would go in so it looks like I've got to sand open each one of them too.

I am a little surprised Madcow sent fins this much off. They are usually better than that. These will fly fine on this rocket - it is very forgiving.

I know it is not relevant now, but if you run across this again, a table saw or band saw works nicely, if you have one. I just double sided tape all the fins together, line them up on the fence and carefully trim them to length. It is also a lot easier to trim them that way than sanding.

 

[mtnmanak]

Hope you don't mind me adding to your build thread, I'm not planning on adding on very many posts, So here it is a year later and I've just got the fins on the rocket Everything takes so GD long in my life now, but I figure once the fins are finished that the rest will go a lot faster. Here's the epoxy fillets, as i'm going to hate to cover them up as good as they turned out.

I'll go over them with Bondo spot and glazing putty using the ball Fondant tool. I'm going to try to have it finished by May, I might as well set a goal.

Absolutely Marty - feel free to add as many posts as you like!

Build is looking great! I really do love this rocket. It is a workhorse. I have at least 40 HPRs in the current flyable fleet and I almost always still bring this one to every launch. You can really abuse this rocket on just about any motor you can fit in there and it will come back for more.

Looks like you got a lot of the "heavy lifting" done now. Go with thin layers of Bondo - it works well, but it can be tough to sand. I know you mentioned limited hand strength (hope you are doing well!), so if you go with lighter, multiple coats of Bondo, you may save yourself a bit of deep sanding.

Good luck and feel free to ask any questions if you have some!

 

[Hobie1dog]

I am a little surprised Madcow sent fins this much off. They are usually better than that. These will fly fine on this rocket - it is very forgiving.

I know it is not relevant now, but if you run across this again, a table saw or band saw works nicely, if you have one. I just double sided tape all the fins together, line them up on the fence and carefully trim them to length. It is also a lot easier to trim them that way than sanding.

I must have explained this in another thread. I sent Apogee pictures and they forwarded them to Madcow. Shortly after I received a box from Madcow with 4 new fins and a new airframe. How's that for customer service? And remember that I bought it in 2012

 

[mtnmanak]

I must have explained this in another thread. I sent Apogee pictures and they forwarded them to Madcow. Shortly after I received a box from Madcow with 4 new fins and a new airframe. How's that for customer service? And remember that I bought it in 2012

Awesome - very nice!

 

[Hobie1dog]

I finally got all the fillets smoothed out and went on to starting the electronics bay today and so far I've got 2 hours in it and still really not finished,But at the end of the video section you are supposed to take the left over bulkhead plate and stick it inside the nose cone. Well whoever grabbed the bulkhead plate, grabbed the one that is the same outside diameter as the nose cone, instead of getting the smaller one. So I've already put the eye bolt and epoxy around the nut according to their video so now I'm going to have to take a Dremel and carefully whittle away till I can get it to fit inside the nose cone.

That's going to be a major pain in the butt.

 

[David_Stack]

Good Afternoon Marty;

Hard to tell from the photo, is the bulkplate shown in your post #192 an outer diameter that allows it to fit inside the body tube? Assuming so, many nosecones have a larger inner diameter above the shoulder, and you may be able to squeeze the shoulder, elongating it so that you can slip the bulkhead up into the nosecone, where the molded in shoulder then serves as a ledge upon which the bulkhead rests, providing an additional layer of reinforcement to keep it from pulling out of the nosecone (similar to this):

 

[Hobie1dog]

Unfortunately in this case the video clearly shows Tim picking up the bulkhead by the bolt and sliding it right into place so this one is simply the same OD as the outer shoulder which is clearly a mistake made by whoever picked the parts out.

 

[thzero]

I finally got all the fillets smoothed out and went on to starting the electronics bay today and so far I've got 2 hours in it and still really not finished,But at the end of the video section you are supposed to take the left over bulkhead plate and stick it inside the nose cone. Well whoever grabbed the bulkhead plate, grabbed the one that is the same outside diameter as the nose cone, instead of getting the smaller one. So I've already put the eye bolt and epoxy around the nut according to their video so now I'm going to have to take a Dremel and carefully whittle away till I can get it to fit inside the nose cone.
That's going to be a major pain in the butt.

Its not to bad. Just run the Dremel sand bit around and around the outside, check measurements every so many "laps". I've done this quite a bit to use centering rings inside of couplers.

 

[Hobie1dog]

Yeah, about four or five laps around and checking on it periodically, I got it in the nose come, and I just ran out of my epoxy so I gotta get my son to bring home some more from work.

 

[mtnmanak]

I really did not like TVM's method of securing the nosecone bulkhead, which is why I chose to shove a regular centering ring up past the shoulder, attach a U-bolt to it and epoxy the snot of it inside the nosecone. Not only has this been super secure, it allows me to add nosecone weight later and, as I have found out many times, having the attach point further up the nosecone greatly facilitates in getting the broken off pieces of shear pins out later. You can get the sheared off portion of the pins out by using an x-acto knife to try to spin them out or spin them all the way into the nosecone, but many times all you end up doing is breaking the blade on your x-acto. It is infinitely easier to use longer shear pins (For 4" rockets, I like to use 3/8" long 2-56 nylon pins - https://www.mcmaster.com/94735A709/) and then, with the inside of the shoulder exposed, you can just reach in, grab the end of the sheared of pin (you can use needle nose pliers for this if they are too difficult to grab with your fingers) and just screw them out. If you epoxy the bulkhead into the end of the shoulder, you can't do that.

This was discussed in post 94: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/apogee-level-2-build.162403/post-2060263

 

[Hobie1dog]

Don't get me wrong guys as I bought the kit specifically because it had the DVD showing every step by step to put this rocket together. I had not put a rocket together in 9 years. I definitely want to thank Apogee for going to all the trouble to do this video. I put in about 4 hours today on it and am now on chapter 16- putting in the shear pins. While doing the electronics bay I didn't see him drill the vent hole or say what size it is?

 

[mtnmanak]

I would be reluctant to build the rocket exactly according to the video, considering Tim's first launch of the rocket is a failure. If you watch the videos to the end, you will see that his main never deploys and the rocket comes in under drogue, which scrambles the ebay like an egg and cracks the nosecone.

The main reason for his failure was a poor ebay setup. They main culprit was probably the crappy little zip tie he used on the battery. If nothing else, ensure you drill holes to secure the battery in two directions and use much stronger zip ties. I also install my batteries on the opposite side of the sled than the flight computer because when a battery comes loose during the flight and the rocket comes in hard, you have a relatively heavy battery assaulting your expensive electronics like a pinball. Finally, in my opinion, that push button has no place in high powered rocketry. Even though his battery came loose and that most likely caused his rocket to burn in, the issue could just have easily been that something hit the push button after the drogue deployed which caused the computer to turn off and it was the impact that scrambled the ebay. There is no way to know for sure. What I do know is that I would not trust a switch that can easily be de-activated in flight, I would secure the battery much better and on the opposite side of the sled, and I would not use the nylon altimeter mounting "hardware", they snap off too easily. I know he says in the video this is a good thing, it is my opinion that it is not good.

For vent holes on a four inch rocket, three 1/8" or 5/32" holes should be good:

https://www.vernk.com/AltimeterPortSizing.htm

 

[Hobie1dog]

Thanks for the advice

 

[Hobie1dog]

For vent holes on a four inch rocket, three 1/8" or 5/32" holes should be good:

https://www.vernk.com/AltimeterPortSizing.htm

I'm going to use a different battery holder that fully wraps around the perimeter. The Missile Works model is the one I like:
https://www.missileworks.com/store/#!/9V-Battery-Holder/p/24591228/category=5760488I plan on getting a Missile Works RRC3 altimeter but I did not see a 3D sled to hold the RRC3 and a battery on the rear that has 2" on center mounting holes, which is what I would like to replace the stock wooden sled. Can anyone tell me where I can get a sled like this?

As far as a switch, I still prefer the metal ones with the locking key and red "Remove Before Flight" flags. With my messed up hands, I'm not going to be fumbling around with a small screwdriver trying to figure out where the screwdriver slot is inside of a tube that I can't see.

 

[mtnmanak]

The Missile Works RRC3 75mm sled is sized for 2" on center, but they are currently sold out:

https://www.missileworks.com/store/#!/RRC3-75mm-Modular-Sled-System/p/33422521/category=9045100
However, that sled is made by Additive Aerospace and they make a 75mm sled that is exactly the same as the one Missile Works sells:

https://www.additiveaerospace.com/collections/altimeter-sleds/products/76mm-smart-sled
You will notice that none of the missile works altimeters are listed on that sled's compatibility list and there is a note at the bottom of the page telling you to go to the Missile Works site for MW altimeters. This is in accordance with their agreement with MW so they don't cannibalize MW sales, but I can assure you the Additive Aerospace sled works just fine with the MW altimeters. It also has a very convenient 9V battery holder on the back of the sled, so you would not need a separate battery holder.

All those sleds are designed to work with either a Shurter rotary switch or a screw switch, but it would not be difficult to wire your altimeter to a key switch mounted to the switch band.

Here is a picture of RRC3's in the 4" version of that sled (with 3" on center tubes for threaded rods) - as you can see, the Missile Works altimeters work great on them:

 

[Hobie1dog]

The Missile Works RRC3 75mm sled is sized for 2" on center, but they are currently sold out:

https://www.missileworks.com/store/#!/RRC3-75mm-Modular-Sled-System/p/33422521/category=9045100
However, that sled is made by Additive Aerospace and they make a 75mm sled that is exactly the same as the one Missile Works sells:

https://www.additiveaerospace.com/collections/altimeter-sleds/products/76mm-smart-sled
You will notice that none of the missile works altimeters are listed on that sled's compatibility list and there is a note at the bottom of the page telling you to go to the Missile Works site for MW altimeters. This is in accordance with their agreement with MW so they don't cannibalize MW sales, but I can assure you the Additive Aerospace sled works just fine with the MW altimeters. It also has a very convenient 9V battery holder on the back of the sled, so you would not need a separate battery holder.

All those sleds are designed to work with either a Shurter rotary switch or a screw switch, but it would not be difficult to wire your altimeter to a key switch mounted to the switch band.

I knew I liked you. Thank you very much for a great response. That helps a lot.

 

[kcobbva]

I finally got all the fillets smoothed out and went on to starting the electronics bay today and so far I've got 2 hours in it and still really not finished,But at the end of the video section you are supposed to take the left over bulkhead plate and stick it inside the nose cone. Well whoever grabbed the bulkhead plate, grabbed the one that is the same outside diameter as the nose cone, instead of getting the smaller one. So I've already put the eye bolt and epoxy around the nut according to their video so now I'm going to have to take a Dremel and carefully whittle away till I can get it to fit inside the nose cone.

That's going to be a major pain in the butt.

Oh man. That's not good. Serious PITA!

 

[Hobie1dog]

Oh man. That's not good. Serious PITA!

The bad part as even being 65 years old, I'm still dumber than a sled load full of manure and forgot to put my goggles on and only had my regular glasses on and used the Dremel tool on the fiberglass and now I got fiberglass particles in my eyes and my eyes are swollen up again. Just as they got cleared up 2 days ago from the Bondo fumes.

 

[kcobbva]

Sorry I'd not seen this when you initially posted the nosecone. What I did - thinking ahead of high flights, was to change up the nosecone bulkhead so that I could slide in radio/gps electronics:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...ponents.132913/page-5#lg=post-1576258&slide=3https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...ponents.132913/page-6#lg=post-1580886&slide=2https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...ponents.132913/page-6#lg=post-1584073&slide=1

 

[Hobie1dog]

Sorry I'd not seen this when you initially posted the nosecone. What I did - thinking ahead of high flights, was to change up the nosecone bulkhead so that I could slide in radio/gps electronics:

This is a great fiberglass rocket to learn about HPR on, so if I can afford to do a L3 rocket in the future, I'll implement your bulkhead ideas.
Thanks for the links.

 

[JackC]

I'm going to use a different battery holder that fully wraps around the perimeter. The Missile Works model is the one I like:
https://www.missileworks.com/store/#!/9V-Battery-Holder/p/24591228/category=5760488I plan on getting a Missile Works RRC3 altimeter but I did not see a 3D sled to hold the RRC3 and a battery on the rear that has 2" on center mounting holes, which is what I would like to replace the stock wooden sled. Can anyone tell me where I can get a sled like this?

As far as a switch, I still prefer the metal ones with the locking key and red "Remove Before Flight" flags. With my messed up hands, I'm not going to be fumbling around with a small screwdriver trying to figure out where the screwdriver slot is inside of a tube that I can't see.

Mach One/Badass Rocketry also has 54mm coupler sleds that are 6 inches long and should fit your application. The sled has space for two altimeters in the front and secures 2 batteries in the back . The batteries are held down by a brace that you screw into the sled and can also be held down by zip ties in slots the sled provides for them. The sled fits perfectly in a 3 inch coupler tube and leaves plenty of room for your wires.

https://www.mach1rocketry.com/product-page/badass-multi-bays

 

[Hobie1dog]

Mach One/Badass Rocketry also has 54mm coupler sleds that are 6 inches long and should fit your application. The sled has space for two altimeters in the front and secures 2 batteries in the back . The batteries are held down by a brace that you screw into the sled and can also be held down by zip ties in slots the sled provides for them. The sled fits perfectly in a 3 inch coupler tube and leaves plenty of room for your wires.

https://www.mach1rocketry.com/product-page/badass-multi-bays

I wish they would list what the Centerline measurements are, saying that they'll fit in a certain size air frame really doesn't apply to me having a 4-in diameter rocket . I just need one that is on 2 inch all thread centers. thanks for the website link.

 

[kcobbva]

For what it's worth, when trying to align and drill the holes to arm your sled through the ebay, I've turned to the Magnetic switches and just love them. Make a mark on the ebay so I know where to swipe and on my Level 2, I had two of them on opposing sides so I could arm two StratoLoggers for my 10K attempt. Magnetic Switch (featherweightaltimeters.com)