Now that "Mad Mike" Hughes is gone

[jqavins]

But it does raise a good question. Is anybody using a steam rocket like that in our hobby, even just for the heck of having done it? Yes, I know, it probably wouldn't count as a research motor at a Tripoli sanctioned event since it's neither APCP not R-candy.

 

[Bruce]

So, just wondering, why haven't any unmanned hobby type rockets like ours used steam as the power source? You'd think that at least one person would have tried it...

 

[heada]

Weight. A pressure vessel that can support high pressure steam is really heavy. And the performance is nowhere near what you get from APCP. It isn't just hobby rockets, have you seen any professional (military or commercial) steam powered rockets in the last 50 years?

 

[Bruce]

The manned rockets were carrying a ~150lb payload (the man) so it seems that the weight of the pressure vessel can't be so heavy that it keeps the rocket from flying. After all, isn't the solid rocket motor case a type of pressure vessel too? And it's cylindrical, not the ideal spherical shape like the boiler.

You'd think the steam powered motor would favor smaller rockets if the weight of the boiler is going up fast as the size gets bigger.

Agreed, I have not seen any professional steam powerer rockets ever. Were there ones built before 50 years ago?

 

[heada]

The manned rockets were carrying a ~150lb payload (the man) so it seems that the weight of the pressure vessel can't be so heavy that it keeps the rocket from flying. After all, isn't the solid rocket motor case a type of pressure vessel too? And it's cylindrical, not the ideal spherical shape like the boiler.

You'd think the steam powered motor would favor smaller rockets if the weight of the boiler is going up fast as the size gets bigger.

Agreed, I have not seen any professional steam powerer rockets ever. Were there ones built before 50 years ago?

No on purpose but if you have a water heater without a pressure relief valve, you end up with a steam powered rocket going up through your roof.

 

[Nytrunner]

No on purpose but if you have a water heater without a pressure relief valve, you end up with a steam powered rocket going up through your roof.

Which is why my answer a few posts up didnt read "Steam powered devices aren't regulated"

 

[Glasspack]

It is sad.
It's one thing to be a daredevil who works hard to understand the science and physics and uses them to make their stunts work as safely as possible while looking dangerous to the average Joe. That's the kind of person Eddie Braun and Scott Truax are, the stuntman and rocket builder who successfully recreated Evel Knievel's rocket jump. That I can respect and admire. That's the kind of role model you want your sons and daughters to emulate.
It's quite another thing to do those same stunts while ignoring the physics and science. Everything I've read or seen about Mr. Hughes leads me to believe he fit into the latter category, kind of a "Never tell me the science; I know what I'm doing!" type of person. That kind of behavior is not to be admired or celebrated.

I could not agree more Steve !!

 

[Steve Shannon]

But it does raise a good question. Is anybody using a steam rocket like that in our hobby, even just for the heck of having done it? Yes, I know, it probably wouldn't count as a research motor at a Tripoli sanctioned event since it's neither APCP not R-candy.

There may be a way to do it under Tripoli rules. I don’t know if the rule about liquid motors would necessarily ban it. Thinking about how to do it, it would require remote heating and an ability to safely dump pressure. If you’re really serious about it come up with a proposal.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Water and steam pressure vessels aren't controlled substances by the ATF, and don't require significant knowledge of chemistry and combustion to get working

Exactly. And because of that they don’t suffer from the ability to suddenly increase in pressure without application of some external energy. They’re very stable.

 

[heada]

I have to say, I have just thought of several steam powered rockets but they're not steam in a "boiler with pressure vessel" kind but more "high test hydrogen peroxide catalyzed into steam" Not something you see in the hobby level stuff but amateur and commercial level there have been some. Getting a source of HTP is difficult and its quite dangerous stuff.

 

[Steve Shannon]

I have to say, I have just thought of several steam powered rockets but they're not steam in a "boiler with pressure vessel" kind but more "high test hydrogen peroxide catalyzed into steam" Not something you see in the hobby level stuff but amateur and commercial level there have been some. Getting a source of HTP is difficult and its quite dangerous stuff.

And when asked, the board has nixed requests to fly self contained H2O2 rockets as TRA Research motors.

 

[jqavins]

There may be a way to do it under Tripoli rules. I don’t know if the rule about liquid motors would necessarily ban it. Thinking about how to do it, it would require remote heating and an ability to safely dump pressure. If you’re really serious about it come up with a proposal.

I wasn't really serious, just musing. Now I'm musing harder, but still not really serious. For now. (Insulated pressure tank, electric heater with power from GSE, safety vent, dump valve, nozzle. Hmmm.)

Getting a source of HTP is difficult and its quite dangerous stuff.

More than 10 years ago (15 years?) I read the web site of a guy in Mexico who was selling it in gallon quantities, and selling rigs to make your own by starting with a 35% solution, which is not so hard to get. He said that it's really not so hard if you just make sure that the rig is 1) made completely of glass, and 2) scrupulously clean. He had pictures and video of, among other things, his daughter riding a rocket powered bicycle.

One can take HTP further in rocketry than monopropellant, but I guess any more said than that belongs in the research forum.

 

[Steve Shannon]

I wasn't really serious, just musing. Now I'm musing harder, but still not really serious. For now. (Insulated pressure tank, electric heater with power from GSE, safety vent, dump valve, nozzle. Hmmm.)

More than 10 years ago (15 years?) I read the web site of a guy in Mexico who was selling it in gallon quantities, and selling rigs to make your own by starting with a 35% solution, which is not so hard to get. He said that it's really not so hard if you just make sure that the rig is 1) made completely of glass, and 2) scrupulously clean. He had pictures and video of, among other things, his daughter riding a rocket powered bicycle.

One can take HTP further in rocketry than monopropellant, but I guess any more said than that belongs in the research forum.

You should join Tripoli. You’d like it.

 

[heada]

More than 10 years ago (15 years?) I read the web site of a guy in Mexico who was selling it in gallon quantities, and selling rigs to make your own by starting with a 35% solution, which is not so hard to get. He said that it's really not so hard if you just make sure that the rig is 1) made completely of glass, and 2) scrupulously clean. He had pictures and video of, among other things, his daughter riding a rocket powered bicycle.

Starting with 3% (publicly available) or even 30% (commercially available) and then distilling it is where a lot of people get into trouble. When distilling, there are some practices that are mandatory that most people wouldn't think about and even with H2O2, wont get you into trouble until you get above the 70% or so level. If your feed stock isn't 100% either H2O or H2O2, you tend to concentrate those contaminates and then suddenly, unexpectedly, it'll start to decompose into very hot H2O and very hot O2 and you.

I fully support TRA's refusal to allow H2O2 based systems in research launches. It's up there with fuming nitric acid.

 

[CoyoteNumber2]

So, just wondering, why haven't any unmanned hobby type rockets like ours used steam as the power source? You'd think that at least one person would have tried it...

Around 2003 I saw a guy give a presentation at an RRS meeting on his steam-powered go karts and [unmanned] rockets. I don't remember his name. For all I know, it could have been Mad Mike.

 

[Reinhard]

The manned rockets were carrying a ~150lb payload (the man) so it seems that the weight of the pressure vessel can't be so heavy that it keeps the rocket from flying. After all, isn't the solid rocket motor case a type of pressure vessel too? And it's cylindrical, not the ideal spherical shape like the boiler.

You'd think the steam powered motor would favor smaller rockets if the weight of the boiler is going up fast as the size gets bigger.

Agreed, I have not seen any professional steam powerer rockets ever. Were there ones built before 50 years ago?

As @heada mentioned, the performance of steam is abysmal. Also, it's more cumbersome than the motors that we are using. So it is unattractive both for the serious folks as well as for the just for fun folks.

So what's a good reason to use steam?
1) APCP is expensive. Even a small hop with a human on board will cost you thousands of dollars. If you want to get higher, start adding zeroes. Water is cheap, even in bulk.
2) Big solid rocket motors are hard to build. If you don't get everything right, you have a good chance that it will blow up on ignition with rather unpleasant effects for the payload/pilot. Solid motors for valuable missions are built with extensive quality control (X-ray etc.) and tested often, which makes everything even more expensive. On the other hand, preventing a boiler from blowing up is engineering 101, especially if you don't care about weight/performance.

Reinhard

 

[Bruce]

As @heada mentioned, the performance of steam is abysmal...

Abysmal seems a bit harsh. After all, it lifted the weight of a person across the Snake River Canyon. That's better than 99% of our rockets can do isn't it? You don't always need the absolute highest performance to get the job done. And as a bonus, steam leaves a nice big white billowing "smoke" trail!

Also, just to clarify, the H2O2 rockets that were mentioned are completely different from the "steam" rockets that Mad Mike and other private manned rockets have used. H2O2 is Hydrogen Peroxide and its use as a gas generator was developed in the 1930s in Germany. H2O2 was used to power the turbo pumps on V2 rockets. The Hydrogen Peroxide is run over a catalyst which causes the violent release of energy.

As I understand it, Mad Mike's steam rocket had a filament wound spherical boiler that contained very high pressure superheated steam that was released into the rocket motor chamber and out a de Lavel type nozzle. If anyone has any more information, like how the steam was heated, I'd be interested.

I wonder if a simple, safe, Estes sized steam rocket could be made...

 

[Mugs914]

What Nyt said...

There were a few steam rocket powered drag cars back in the late 60s/70s. It was a pretty good application for a steam rocket: they had decent punch off the line, short duration and were (relatively) safe. Just like solid propellant motors though, they cannot be stopped one "fired", so if things got a bit sporty you were just along for the ride until it decided to stop (wherever that may be).

 

[Ez2cDave]

Starting with 3% (publicly available) or even 30% (commercially available) and then distilling it is where a lot of people get into trouble. When distilling, there are some practices that are mandatory that most people wouldn't think about and even with H2O2, wont get you into trouble until you get above the 70% or so level. If your feed stock isn't 100% either H2O or H2O2, you tend to concentrate those contaminates and then suddenly, unexpectedly, it'll start to decompose into very hot H2O and very hot O2 and you.

I fully support TRA's refusal to allow H2O2 based systems in research launches. It's up there with fuming nitric acid.

Speaking of Hydrogen Peroxide . . .

This is "Slam'n" Sammy Miller in the "Vanishing Point" Hydrogen Peroxide-powered rocket car . . . At its fastest, 3 second - range 1/4 Mile ET's were run, at well over 350 mph, in the late 1970's - early 1980's. The H2O2 used was 90%, by weight.

https://www.vetechnet.com/rocketcar.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp_0oMQnhlo

Dave F.

 

[Flyfalcons]

I'm curious about these low altitude manned rocket flights. Have there been any other private manned flights besides Evel Knieval, Eddie Braun and Mad Mike Hughes?

I understand that all 3 of them used steam powered rockets where a high pressure boiler is employed and superheated steam is released to create the thrust to power the rocket. Why didn't any of them use conventional APCP solid rocket motors? Is it thats the steam setup is somehow more suited to manned flight by being simpler or safer? An if so, have any amateur unmanned rockets been powered by steam?

Johnny Knoxville did and the thing CATO'd on him.

 

[Bruce]

I watched Johnny Knoxville's manned rocket flight on YouTube,



and it looked like a cluster of rocket motors with flames coming out, not steam. Does anyone have any more information on what motors he used?

 

[NateB]

and it looked like a cluster of rocket motors with flames coming out, not steam. Does anyone have any more information on what motors he used?

Just a guess: the flames and rockets coming off the back looked like pyrotechnic special effects.

It is possible that rocket and Knoxville performed EXACTLY as intended.

 

[DaveW6DPS]

Water and steam pressure vessels aren't controlled substances by the ATF, and don't require significant knowledge of chemistry and combustion to get working

There may be a way to do it under Tripoli rules. I don’t know if the rule about liquid motors would necessarily ban it. Thinking about how to do it, it would require remote heating and an ability to safely dump pressure. If you’re really serious about it come up with a proposal.

Steam pressure vessels are not regulated by ATF, however, they are regulated. If someone were to attend a launch with a steam powered rocket, they should be prepared to show their operator permit, the certification for the vessel if it will be pressurized above 160°F or 250psig and the certification and testing records for any safety relief valve for steam service. Every state has regulations, and they are very consistent. I am intimately familiar with California regulations. Any "proposal" should include a detailed review of applicable regulations and required licensure.

 

[Rocket501]

I'm personally 99% sure that Mad Mike didn't have the right permits for a pressure vessel.

The ISP of a good steam rocket is about 45 with black-powder usually being around 80. Meanwhile, our APCP is usually over 200 with rocket candy being around 120.

When it comes to ISP, higher is better.

As for HTP, I've made some myself, up to about 90% concentration for some research hybrids. You have to have some specialized knowledge and doing it properly isn't very cheap and slow. Some methods are easier than others, but so much can easily go wrong if you buy a base form that has the wrong stabilizers or make a mistake in storage or concentration, etc. My personal favorite process for 75-80% is reasonably safe, easy, and sane, but pushing up to 90% requires a rather more involved process or more expensive chemicals.

While I find the HTP rocket limitations irritating, as I know how to safely work with it, I think they are in place for a good reason. Also, the ISP is honestly around black powder levels.

Personally, I also find RFNA to not be as bad as many think. You just need to be willing to spend money for proper safety gear and follow the proper methods of handling and storage rigorously. It makes some rather nice hybrids and hypergolic biprops. However, I think amateurs would likely cut corners with storage, inhibition, protection, and transfer, so it is a good thing that it isn't used by most. Also, it is pretty much entirely obsolete at the commercial level.

 

[Bruce]

So far there are only 4 people on this very exclusive list of private manned rocket flights.

Evel Knieval
Eddie Braun
Mike Hughes
Johnny Knoxville


Does anyone know of more people who have tried this?

 

[CoyoteNumber2]

I watched Johnny Knoxville's manned rocket flight on YouTube,

and it looked like a cluster of rocket motors with flames coming out, not steam. Does anyone have any more information on what motors he used?

One of the rocket guys involved told me but I don't remember exactly. I think it was four or five H180s.

So far there are only 4 people on this very exclusive list of private manned rocket flights.

Evel Knieval
Eddie Braun
Mike Hughes
Johnny Knoxville


Does anyone know of more people who have tried this?

Brian Binnie, Peter Siebold, Mike Melvill, Mark Stucky, Michael Alsbury, David Mackay, Mark Nichols, Mike Masucci, Frederick Sturckow, Beth Moses.

 

[DaveW6DPS]

I'm personally 99% sure that Mad Mike didn't have the right permits for a pressure vessel.

Hughes had nothing. He launched from private property to avoid any BLM or county permits, and there was no record of a NOTAM or COA from the FAA.

 

[Rocket501]

Hughes had nothing. He launched from private property to avoid any BLM or county permits, and there was no record of a NOTAM or COA from the FAA.

That does not surprise me in the slightest. He didn't seem to be the type of person that respected such things.

 

[Ez2cDave]

It looks like Ky Michaelson has something in the works . . .

 

[Ez2cDave]