Revision to Tripoli Rule Regarding Wireless Remote Switches

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FWIW, the screw switch failures I’ve had were with commercially available screw switches from a rocket vendor.

I sense a run on Fingertech switches. :) I looked online for a place to order just the contacts like what is in those and I couldn’t find them. I know several people planning to embed the Fingertech contacts directly into 3D printed sleds...it’d be great to find a supplier of similar contacts.
I wasn't familiar with those, so I took a quick look. It uses an aluminum conductor between what appear to be copper endplates. Aluminum oxide being non-conductive doesn't instill confidence in me...
 
Ground testing in many cases will not test the electronics. In a lot of older simple altimeters like the adept22 do not have a test mode. The only way to get them to fire the charges is to simulate the rocket flight with a vacuum cleaner and reduce the pressure in the AV-bay. This is difficult to do without being right beside the rocket when the charges are fired.

Therefore, I just run a wire out of the static ports and connect it to a test harness I have created with a 9v battery and a push button to fire the ematch. However higher end altimeters and the eggtimer quantum (probably others I haven’t used) have the test mode.

No you are probably saying then how do you know the system is wired right. I test that by putting mini Christmas light bulbs in place of the ematch and then use the vacuum or just sucking on one of the static ports (for small diameter rockets).
I think our definitions of ground-testing may be slightly different. In my version of ground testing, I'm testing charge size for sure, but I'm also verifying that the electronics comes to life as expected when powered-on. I power-cycle my electronics at least 25 times with an e-match attached to verify that there is no glitching at power-on (which tends to be the most vulnerable scenario for electronics).
 
I wasn't familiar with those, so I took a quick look. It uses an aluminum conductor between what appear to be copper endplates. Aluminum oxide being non-conductive doesn't instill confidence in me...
I think the bigger problem is that it has the same issue as others have brought up about other switches - there's nothing that prevents it from closing due to vibration in e.g. a car or vehicle. All the screw has to do is rotate.
 
I think the bigger problem is that it has the same issue as others have brought up about other switches - there's nothing that prevents it from closing due to vibration in e.g. a car or vehicle. All the screw has to do is rotate.
The screw would have to back out a lot for that to happen, but it's possible. They're meant for robotics, specifically for motors... current capacity is more important than vibration or acceleration tolerance. What's really needed in rocketry is a switch that locks closed (and open!) somehow, and cannot be moved by any force normal in rocketry.
 
OK, for your military guys... what kind of switches do they use to arm air-to-air missiles before takeoff?
In general, the ground crews pull a pin or rotate a small handle to un-safe the weapons. That’s the external action. I’ll have to do some digging to see what of their internal designs are releasable. (Probably not much.) Airborne arming and the launch sequence are different.
I wasn't familiar with those, so I took a quick look. It uses an aluminum conductor between what appear to be copper endplates. Aluminum oxide being non-conductive doesn't instill confidence in me...
We should just make gold ones! Seriously though...The aluminum screw looks plated, but I’m not sure with what. It could also be replaced with a copper one (or pick your favorite conductive screw).
 
Steve Shannon: Since the board has decided that silicon based technology is not safe enough I respectfully ask that you please list some suggested MECHANICAL SWITCHES THAT ARE 100% reliable that i can retrofit my level 3 rockets with. I am sorry but I know of none yet and have not had good experiences with any screw-switch or switch to date.
 
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The aluminum screw looks plated, but I’m not sure with what. It could also be replaced with a copper one (or pick your favorite conductive screw).
I believe it is anodized, and to the best of my knowledge most - if not all - anodized finishes are not great conductors as well. The anodized finish will wear over time in the screw threads due contact force, but then we're left with... AlO2. Copper would have been a better choice to my way of thinking. You would just need to be careful torquing it down due to copper's relative softness.
 
I believe it is anodized, and to the best of my knowledge most - if not all - anodized finishes are not great conductors as well. The anodized finish will wear over time in the screw threads due contact force, but then we're left with... AlO2. Copper would have been a better choice to my way of thinking. You would just need to be careful torquing it down due to copper's relative softness.
That’s my guess too. I can’t speak to the conductivity of their screw with its coating/anodizing. Digging on their website, it’s a 7075-T6 screw which isn’t too horrible for corrosion. I plan on checking it out for myself. The robot hobby people sure like it.
 
The Fingertech switch is great. It is highly unlikely to vibrate in or out as the head of the screw is friction-fit into the chassis. The ones I've had are not anodized.

They're also bullet-proof. This one is *technically* still functional.
Buffout.jpg
Lack of imagination for what could go wrong is what tried to kill this one.

I've got four more on the way.
 
I think the bigger problem is that it has the same issue as others have brought up about other switches - there's nothing that prevents it from closing due to vibration in e.g. a car or vehicle. All the screw has to do is rotate.

Remove the screw in transit. Problem solved.
 
The screw would have to back out a lot for that to happen, but it's possible. They're meant for robotics, specifically for motors... current capacity is more important than vibration or acceleration tolerance. What's really needed in rocketry is a switch that locks closed (and open!) somehow, and cannot be moved by any force normal in rocketry.

You could alway use a jumper across two unconnected terminals on a terminal strip.

The Omron or Honeywell microswitches come in 100 gee ratings. That’s sufficient for any flight profile I know of. I flew an H999 in a rocket that weighed 2.75 pounds once. That’s about 89 gees.
 
I'm not a Tripoli member, so not currently affected by this, but I expect that I will be through NAR. I'm nowhere near as experienced as most who've posted; I've certified to NAR Level II but haven't flown more than was required to do that. What strikes me most about this thread is not the vitriol, but the knowledge and wisdom that have been relayed - it may not be in the majority of the posts, but the thread (especially the questions asked and answered, and the questions asked and as-yet unanswered) should be required reading for any group that plans on touching this subject in the future.

Modern electronic devices can be remarkably robust and reliable when competently designed into a sealed and protected enclosure and operated within specified electrical, mechanical, and environmental limits. Hobby rocketry, as it's practiced at this time, doesn't meet most or all of these limitations, so I don't see how one could safely rely on them (and before you argue, please be sure to honestly tell me that you always handle your altimeter at an approved static-safe workstation using appropriate personnel procedures, that it never exceeds the vibration and G-loads spec'ed by the manufacturers of all the components used on it, and that it is always protected from mechanical, electrical, or environmental damage). The important thing to recognize when it comes to electronics is that "broken" doesn't mean "dead, inert, safe", it means "I don't know what it's going to do, could be anything from nothing to everything to going up in smoke, or perhaps combinations of all three". The problem comes in deciding how far down the rathole you want to go, how far you want to go to meet the "Must". An inline diode might be a great way to solve #2, for example; but a diode, as robust as it is, is still an electronic device subject to the previous paragraph.

I will say that it seems to me that a revision to safety codes that simply lays out what is expected out of ejection/airstart electronics is sufficient. There's no real need for TRA/NAR to get into the certification biz, the specification biz, or even the waiver of requirements as they did for the WiFi switch. A relatively small set of general requirements that the community can police should be sufficient; this thread can be distilled down to start such a list. Note that some of these will fall on equipment manufacturer shoulders, and some on the Rocketeer:
Electronics for energetics:
1. Must be designed to prevent accidental firing at power on (Mfg)
2. Must be designed to prevent accidental firing due to battery reversal (Mfg)
3. Must be designed to prevent accidental firing due to a tipped, dropped or transported rocket (Mfg, Rocketeer)
4. Must be capable of unpowered RSO inspection (Rocketeer)
- Silicon devices cannot be relied on as a means of rendering a rocket unpowered
- Magnetic devices cannot be relied on as a means of rendering a rocket unpowered
- A relay cannot be relied on as a means of rendering a rocket unpowered
5. Rocketeer SHOULD be capable of assembling and continuity testing prior to RSO inspection with (almost) NO danger of accidental firing

I think this is the beginnings of a list that is probably less than 10 items long; all it really needs to do is set out the expectations. Some of these expectations will be different than they have been in the past; some of what I've read in this thread has frankly shocked me.

I've been involved in other hobbies that had to go through wrenching changes in safety culture, due to the realization that what had been perfectly acceptable was killing people and needed to change. I don't think this needs to be as wrenching, but I do think that some well accepted building techniques are going to need to change. Some well-flown rockets are going to need major rework. But the overall changes aren't really that extensive.
 
I'm not a Tripoli member, so not currently affected by this, but I expect that I will be through NAR. I'm nowhere near as experienced as most who've posted; I've certified to NAR Level II but haven't flown more than was required to do that. What strikes me most about this thread is not the vitriol, but the knowledge and wisdom that have been relayed - it may not be in the majority of the posts, but the thread (especially the questions asked and answered, and the questions asked and as-yet unanswered) should be required reading for any group that plans on touching this subject in the future.

Modern electronic devices can be remarkably robust and reliable when competently designed into a sealed and protected enclosure and operated within specified electrical, mechanical, and environmental limits. Hobby rocketry, as it's practiced at this time, doesn't meet most or all of these limitations, so I don't see how one could safely rely on them (and before you argue, please be sure to honestly tell me that you always handle your altimeter at an approved static-safe workstation using appropriate personnel procedures, that it never exceeds the vibration and G-loads spec'ed by the manufacturers of all the components used on it, and that it is always protected from mechanical, electrical, or environmental damage). The important thing to recognize when it comes to electronics is that "broken" doesn't mean "dead, inert, safe", it means "I don't know what it's going to do, could be anything from nothing to everything to going up in smoke, or perhaps combinations of all three". The problem comes in deciding how far down the rathole you want to go, how far you want to go to meet the "Must". An inline diode might be a great way to solve #2, for example; but a diode, as robust as it is, is still an electronic device subject to the previous paragraph.

I will say that it seems to me that a revision to safety codes that simply lays out what is expected out of ejection/airstart electronics is sufficient. There's no real need for TRA/NAR to get into the certification biz, the specification biz, or even the waiver of requirements as they did for the WiFi switch. A relatively small set of general requirements that the community can police should be sufficient; this thread can be distilled down to start such a list. Note that some of these will fall on equipment manufacturer shoulders, and some on the Rocketeer:
Electronics for energetics:
1. Must be designed to prevent accidental firing at power on (Mfg)
2. Must be designed to prevent accidental firing due to battery reversal (Mfg)
3. Must be designed to prevent accidental firing due to a tipped, dropped or transported rocket (Mfg, Rocketeer)
4. Must be capable of unpowered RSO inspection (Rocketeer)
- Silicon devices cannot be relied on as a means of rendering a rocket unpowered
- Magnetic devices cannot be relied on as a means of rendering a rocket unpowered
- A relay cannot be relied on as a means of rendering a rocket unpowered
5. Rocketeer SHOULD be capable of assembling and continuity testing prior to RSO inspection with (almost) NO danger of accidental firing

I think this is the beginnings of a list that is probably less than 10 items long; all it really needs to do is set out the expectations. Some of these expectations will be different than they have been in the past; some of what I've read in this thread has frankly shocked me.

I've been involved in other hobbies that had to go through wrenching changes in safety culture, due to the realization that what had been perfectly acceptable was killing people and needed to change. I don't think this needs to be as wrenching, but I do think that some well accepted building techniques are going to need to change. Some well-flown rockets are going to need major rework. But the overall changes aren't really that extensive.

That’s one of the best posts on this subject.
You’re right. We don’t want to be in the certification business, at all. With help from the manufacturers we would like to develop some sensible minimum standards for rocketry electronics that manufacturers can use and our flyers can use to make their design decisions.
Thank you [emoji120]
 
You could alway use a jumper across two unconnected terminals on a terminal strip.

The Omron or Honeywell microswitches come in 100 gee ratings. That’s sufficient for any flight profile I know of. I flew an H999 in a rocket that weighed 2.75 pounds once. That’s about 89 gees.

Having difficulty locating the 100g rated switches on the manufacturers site. that would be a beginning but I would really prefer to switch all four batterys (8 legs for true disconnected) simultaneous in a compact size capable of fitting within 3” frame.
 
This is a poorly defined , and a crap rule.

Difference between a gram of bp in a smaller md and 24g in a 6 inch diameter bird is huge . i dont miss sticking my head next to the vent hole to hear if the electronics were energizing when i started flying the egg wireless altimeters or switches and could verify arming continuity and batt level with my phone screen , from a distance , without a ladder or screwdriver.

I like that electronics in the past was left to rsos and taps to determine what they were comfortable with. On the TRF dual redundant is recommended but NOT mandated by tripoli ...on the TRF is recommended that said dual redundant systems dont share batts, or channels or switches.. Independent but NOT mandated by tripoli ..

Perhaps the writers of this rule should install some manual lock outs on their garage door openers so the doors that are activated with wireless remote switches dont lower while passing under the open garage door ..just to be sure .. Pull up ..hit remote switch ..door opens .. Walk in unplug garage door (just to be sure) then pull car in and then plug opener back in. ..we want these rule writers to be safe..lets notify their HOAs of the unfounded but not impossibility of those doors maybe hurting someone because they can be activated wirelessly from a switch and not just the safe wired wall switch .
 
I would like to see the clubs conduct investigations on failures and report them back to Tripoli so that we can make decisions on facts.
I would like to see ALL anomolous flights reported... I saw quite a few today, including a little glider on a lowly 1/2A that nearly took somebody out.
 
Having difficulty locating the 100g rated switches on the manufacturers site. that would be a beginning but I would really prefer to switch all four batterys (8 legs for true disconnected) simultaneous in a compact size capable of fitting within 3” frame.

I don’t think you’ll find one of these with four poles, but it would create a single point of failure for all four circuits anyway.
Here’s a Panasonic snap action switch that’s rated at 980 m/s^2

https://www.panasonic-electric-works.com/pew/eu/downloads/ds_asq_en.pdf
 
Mouser has those for about $10... I'm assuming the NC version, which would be best for pull-pin use. Panasonic p/n ASQ10327
 
I tried to answer this in the other thread you started. I can’t keep up with you. It’s like playing whack-a-mole.
emoji848.png


Is model rocketry a subset of fireworks?
https://www.rocketryforum.com/index.php?threads/Is-model-rocketry-a-subset-of-fireworks?.157486/
Nothing in that thread answers my question, your reply is in fact that’s why I asked this question. In that thread you mention "The references include NFPA 1126, which covers the “Standard for the Use of Pyrotechnics Before a Proximate Audience” and NFPA 495, which is entitled “Explosive Materials Code”.

If model rockets are not fireworks, and they are certainly not explosives, was there an affirmative decision to use those codes to regulate our hobby? Or are you saying that because they are largely the same committees that it follows that those rules should be applied to our hobby? Does the board see our ejection charges as being equivalent to commercial fireworks?

I'm just trying to understand why after 20 years of flying HPR, I am just now learning that we should have assumed that rules that apply to commercial fireworks should also apply to us.


Tony
 
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Also - just want to throw this out there -

I am very grateful for this forum and all the discussions and information. Helpful, thought provoking, enlightening - this is all good stuff, and I just want to say thanks.
 
Exactly, I think the shock ratings are for the low mass/high operating force pin lever models. I think the lever model is more susceptible to gee forces with the mass and lever arm.
Personally, I have never been comfortable using a momentary action limit switch for a power feed. No wonder you are searching for high gee specs since you basically have an internal "spring" holding the circuit closed.

BTW, for those that do like this option, Lab Rat Rocketry has some interesting offerings providing the housing, pin, etc., albeit in a larger profile: https://www.labratrocketry.com/shop.
 
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Personally, I have never been comfortable using a momentary action limit switch for a power feed. No wonder you are searching for high gee specs since you basically have an internal "spring" holding the circuit closed.

BTW, for those that do like this option, Lab Rat Rocketry has some interesting offerings providing the housing, pin, etc., albeit in a larger profile: https://www.labratrocketry.com/shop.

With the exception of screw switches almost every switch I know of relies on spring components to keep the contacts in contact. Otherwise they’re very difficult to operate or susceptible to clattering. Obviously push buttons have a spring, but so do slide switches, rotary switches, even knife blade switches have spring contacts that grasp either side of the swinging blade.
Mercury switches don’t.
Fortunately, we can measure the force it takes to move a spring contact and the mass of the contact and then physics allows us to calculate how much acceleration will break the contact. Having two spring contacts allows one to follow the other to maintain contact.
NKK makes miniature slide switches (I think it’s the CS series) that are rated for 50 gees.
 
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