Princeton University attempt at a suborbital space shot?

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Pretty sure UCLA is doing a student-built liquid lol. Not sure how that's more down to Earth
 
Aren't you part of that Princeton team with the marginally stable two stage stack with the sustainer that didn't light? How many years did y'all work on that and how many test flights did you successfully attempt before claiming you were going to reach space? To quote CJ from another thread.

2 stagers are not 2wice as hard,,,,,,,they are 10x more difficult!

Sure, biprops aren't simple. But from a "reaching space" perspective a single stage biprop isn't outside the realm of reality, especially since they've already hot fired multiple engines, flown their own engine, and have set a time frame to attempt a space shot that isn't months out like some of the others out there.

All that implies a team with an actual plan and and eye towards incremental improvements and milestones to reach their final goal. At least they didn't come out of nowhere and loudly proclaim they're going to 100km+ with COTS solid two stage stack and no actual body of work to give them confidence in said premature claim.
 
I'm of the opinion that the hubris and overly ambitious nature of some university students and teams, whilst quite prevalent, is definitely not the rule. I say this as I've been involved in mentoring two university teams out here in Western Australia for the AURC competition. We're a little more challenged out here in the west in terms of fire bans and only being able to fly in winter. That said one of the teams I've been working with showed up to our season opener in April with low power rockets in hand. Nearly a dozen students all up. They launched, talked to others, watched people working on bigger and more aggressive flights, and left enthused. They've spent hours in my shed learning and asking questions. By the end of July they were successful in both their L1 and L2 cert attempts. By the end of August they were flying their competition vehicle that is 100% scratch built. On our last launch of the season which took place 10 days ago they flew this rocket on a big K to roughly 60% of their target altitude (and they were limited to that due to our 7k' ceiling at our lower altitude launch site). When they told me about their K plans I told them they needed to thicken their fins or else they'd shred them. They listened and the fins worked fine given their added thickness. They've been to every club launch we've had this year even though they've not flown at every one.

They're all engineering students, roughly 15-20 of them in all, and yet given it's the first year of the competition and none of them had ever flown HPR before they've decided to go the (what I describe as the more scientific) path of attempting to hit 10k' first before going the whole hog and attempting the 30k' launch. I can't commend them enough on this approach. They can hone their component fabrication and build skills, iron out any issues with their in house avionics/telemetry system, and most importantly they can build actual flight experience with reasonably grunty L2 motors before attempting their L3. This approach is both inherently safer and more logical from my perspective. Their next flight will be the competition in April 2019 and I'm both comfortable and confident that they'll be able to both fly and recover successfully given all the hard work they've put in thus far and the results they've already achieved.

The other team had two members show up to a launch at the start of the year. One regaled me with grandiose declarations that he'd been studying liquid engines for a year now and felt comfortable to declare that he was going to build an "exotic biprop" and reach space. In between this monologue he made sweeping declarations about how our "toy rockets" were just that and they didn't interest him. I've not seen that guy come back. His compatriot is more logical and grounded but they showed up to our last launch of the season at 2PM with a rocket to attempt their L1. That was successful but they lawn darted their L2 attempt roughly 2 hours later. I believe they've decided to press the pause button and not compete in April. Conversely the other team had flown their K and left before both of these flights.

What concerns me is that apparently a majority of these teams have decided to start with the 30k' challenge and have ordered N5800s and O3400s to use for these attempts. I've been an L3 for just over 5 years now and I've never flown anything other than a baby Ms. I'm sure I could fly both the N5800 and O3400 successfully but my gut tells me many of these teams are going to fall victim to rapid unplanned disassembles during boost. The vast majority of them have only just certed L1 on kits and are expecting to fly some of the most aggressive motors we have in the hobby in 6 months from now. That level of hubris both frustrates and frightens me. I've joked about renting an APC for the competition.

More than anything what I don't understand is why someone didn't sit them down and explain to them that they'd probably be better off with a longer burn and less aggressive 98mm 6GXL motor (like the N1560 for example) instead of the likes of the N5800 or O3400. For such smart students it seems quite stupid to me. But as I like to point out to the team I'm mentoring that listens to me is that it's the "unknown unknowns" that will f them. And to be honest I believe many of the other teams in the comp are completely blind to the unknown unknowns that will most likely bite them in the comp.

It's going to be interesting, that's for sure. I can't imagine how frightening it would be if they were planning on staging with homemade Q motors.

That’s exactly it. For the most part we have had wonderful experiences with university teams and others flying Class 3 projects. We need to be prepared to detect and adequately manage those who pass the Class 3 Review Committee process, which is more about helping with the FAA COA, yet don’t have the very basic experience to know that they shouldn’t prepare any rocket with the electronics armed. From the last day of BALLS I’ve used the phrase “they didn’t know what they didn’t know” more times than ever before and I don’t like it.
 
We need to be prepared to detect and adequately manage those who pass the Class 3 Review Committee process, which is more about helping with the FAA COA.

What's the % of student projects where they are working directly via Tripoli to get a Class 3 waiver, vs. student projects where they get the waiver on their own and have minimal contact with Tripoli before the flight?

Not sure if this makes sense, but maybe a rule where Tripoli will not allow a Class 3 flight in general unless the students can prove that they have at least some L3 level experience on their team? Not that this would mitigate overzealousness/stupidity, but at least you can say they've seen how sausage is made before starting their own sausage factory.

Thinking out loud- As a "normal" Tripoli member, I don't think the Class 3 committee would even listen to me unless I had at least an L3.. why should student projects be under less restrictions?
 
What's the % of student projects where they are working directly via Tripoli to get a Class 3 waiver, vs. student projects where they get the waiver on their own and have minimal contact with Tripoli before the flight?

Not sure if this makes sense, but maybe a rule where Tripoli will not allow a Class 3 flight in general unless the students can prove that they have at least some L3 level experience on their team? Not that this would mitigate overzealousness/stupidity, but at least you can say they've seen how sausage is made before starting their own sausage factory.

Thinking out loud- As a "normal" Tripoli member, I don't think the Class 3 committee would even listen to me unless I had at least an L3.. why should student projects be under less restrictions?

That’s a great thought. We already do that. All project teams (university or not) must have someone who is certified at the level required to fly the project rocket. At BALLS we only allowed Tripoli members on the field.
 
And from their Facebook page.

Traveler III has been recovered after its ballistic descent.
Rocket debris was all found in a single impact site, indicating that it was in one piece during re-entry.
Data recovery efforts are still ongoing.
 

When I first saw that picture, I was wondering why there was a picture of a wildebeest horn and not a rocket. Any guesses on how much of that damage was heat and how much was meeting the playa at speed? I guess if it had bent over like that under thrust, it would have torn itself to pieces in the air, so the bend at least is probably impact.
 
That’s exactly it. For the most part we have had wonderful experiences with university teams and others flying Class 3 projects. We need to be prepared to detect and adequately manage those who pass the Class 3 Review Committee process, which is more about helping with the FAA COA, yet don’t have the very basic experience to know that they shouldn’t prepare any rocket with the electronics armed. From the last day of BALLS I’ve used the phrase “they didn’t know what they didn’t know” more times than ever before and I don’t like it.

So what was the conclusion for what went wrong with the Virginia Tech launch? Also, the USCRPL launch which also involved premature ignition is also worrying because this was for a first stage which are generally larger and more powerful and also because first stage ignition should be something people in general are more experienced at. Any conclusions on that?

Bob Clark
 
So what was the conclusion for what went wrong with the Virginia Tech launch? Also, the USCRPL launch which also involved premature ignition is also worrying because this was for a first stage which are generally larger and more powerful and also because first stage ignition should be something people in general are more experienced at. Any conclusions on that?

Bob Clark

For the Orbital Launch Virginia Tech the immediate cause was that the staging electronics were powered on at the wrong time, while the students were assembling the rocket. Our Safety Code specifically prohibits arming any energetics before the rocket is upright and ready to launch.
Tripoli wasn’t involved in the USC launch so I have no firsthand knowledge. Their Facebook page says that due to a miscommunication the rocket was launched before telemetry and avionics were activated. My interpretation is meaningless.

Correction: The Tripoli Class 3 Committee reviewed the USC project. I’m trying to determine what level of involvement Tripoli members might have had.
 
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Probably old news, but I've been reading over Princeton's design doc. What was the final verdict on the ignition failure? I can't find any evidence that they capped the nozzle to keep some air in, nor any information about how they mounted the igniters inside the motors. In fact, I can't see any information about upper stage ignition at all.

Apparently high-altitude ignition failure is what's been plaguing a lot of uni teams, and the design docs I've found have all been kind of cagey about their solutions to the problem. Seems consistently overlooked.
 
"Apparently high-altitude ignition failure is what's been plaguing a lot of uni teams, and the design docs I've found have all been kind of cagey about their solutions to the problem. Seems consistently overlooked."

To ME this seems to be the root of both accidents at Balls.
People/Teams doing un-safe things to BE SURE their sustainer lights.

The first accident was a re-cycle from last year that didn't light the sustainer .... so let's try THERMITE.
The second accident wanted to be sure it would light and when one part of their "redundant" system failed, they hard wired around it to be extra sure....and no switches were used because that might fail too....
 
"Apparently high-altitude ignition failure is what's been plaguing a lot of uni teams, and the design docs I've found have all been kind of cagey about their solutions to the problem. Seems consistently overlooked."

To ME this seems to be the root of both accidents at Balls.
People/Teams doing un-safe things to BE SURE their sustainer lights.

The first accident was a re-cycle from last year that didn't light the sustainer .... so let's try THERMITE.
The second accident wanted to be sure it would light and when one part of their "redundant" system failed, they hard wired around it to be extra sure....and no switches were used because that might fail too....

I think that's a very fair assessment of the situation. I understand that igniting at altitude is hard, but there really seems to be a handful of right ways and many orders of magnitude more wrong ways. Grain sliver + ematch + nitrile glove finger seems to be the best way that a collegiate team could do it (I've been told elsewhere that even partially plugging the motor to keep a little air in is a recipe for a pipe bomb). The accessible literature on this topic is also pretty sparse AFAICT, which is probably why these teams are coming up with such poor to dangerous solutions.

Maybe there's a space in the market for COTS high-altitude igniters? Unless ITAR wants to rear its ugly head.
 
I think that's a very fair assessment of the situation. I understand that igniting at altitude is hard, but there really seems to be a handful of right ways and many orders of magnitude more wrong ways. Grain sliver + ematch + nitrile glove finger seems to be the best way that a collegiate team could do it (I've been told elsewhere that even partially plugging the motor to keep a little air in is a recipe for a pipe bomb). The accessible literature on this topic is also pretty sparse AFAICT, which is probably why these teams are coming up with such poor to dangerous solutions.

Maybe there's a space in the market for COTS high-altitude igniters? Unless ITAR wants to rear its ugly head.

Heat transfer rate is proportional to the pressure in the system. If you do not plug your motor, your only option is to hope your igniter is violent enough to get good direct contact with your grains, or large enough to deliver some pressure to the motor with the nozzle open. Both of these come with their own respective hazards. It's not about keeping the ambient air in, just in delaying the escape of hot gasses enough to provide sufficient heating.

There is nothing black magic to plugging your nozzle, and is done in the professional world as well. There are some issues you can have depending on your motor design, with some water hammer like effects that could cause a CATO and similar oddities. But if you put some design into it, and do a ground test or two. Plugging your motor is probably one of the safest approaches, as it lets you use a more conventional igniter to get your motor lit.

Just have a method that lets your plug let go at a repeatable pressure.
 
With regard to high alt motor ignition, what testing has been done with painting the core of the grains with pyrogen? I know Rocketflite sells a 40gram kit that supposedly burns for >1 second at >2000 degrees F for $39. I imagine that amount would be more than enough to prove both heat transfer and gas pressure on most M or N upper stage motors.
 
With regard to high alt motor ignition, what testing has been done with painting the core of the grains with pyrogen? I know Rocketflite sells a 40gram kit that supposedly burns for >1 second at >2000 degrees F for $39. I imagine that amount would be more than enough to prove both heat transfer and gas pressure on most M or N upper stage motors.

I do not think so. You need not only heat but pressure too. Without some pressure in the motor you will not have much heat flux.

The more I think about this I think the upper stage motor might need an igniter integrated with the forward closure. Of course, you need to make sure you can safe this. Then maybe a paper diaphragm in the divergent nozzle topped with hot wax. Obviously a thin layer of wax is not going to take much pressure. Should be easily ground tested. Would also need to test it for vibration/acceleration tolerance.
 
I do not think so. You need not only heat but pressure too. Without some pressure in the motor you will not have much heat flux.

The more I think about this I think the upper stage motor might need an igniter integrated with the forward closure. Of course, you need to make sure you can safe this. Then maybe a paper diaphragm in the divergent nozzle topped with hot wax. Obviously a thin layer of wax is not going to take much pressure. Should be easily ground tested. Would also need to test it for vibration/acceleration tolerance.

Kind of what I'm thinking of in general - or an off-the-shelf metal burst disc of some kind. I'm really curious as to how the pressure in the motor would change during flight with an airtight nozzle burst disc. Obviously it would peak at ~1 atm, but a column of air about a meter long under 5-10 gs surely would drive up the pressure at the nozzle exit. Even if that drives up the pressure, I'd assume most large motors produce enough thrust to punch through the burst disc.
 
Kind of what I'm thinking of in general - or an off-the-shelf metal burst disc of some kind. I'm really curious as to how the pressure in the motor would change during flight with an airtight nozzle burst disc. Obviously it would peak at ~1 atm, but a column of air about a meter long under 5-10 gs surely would drive up the pressure at the nozzle exit. Even if that drives up the pressure, I'd assume most large motors produce enough thrust to punch through the burst disc.

No, a metal burst disk should not be used as a nozzle plug. It's ok as a burst diagram for pressurized tanks but the irregular burst shape affects the thrust. In professional rockets the plug is made from a material that melts more easily.

I started testing burst disks earlier on the year after running various igniter formulas in my test 'bombe'. The igniter tests are documented in a research thread here. I haven't completed my burst disk testing because the hot summer and work load got in the way. But it is a fairly cheap and simple method. The goal is to maintain 300-400 psi until the motor fully lights. The plastic disk weakens when hot. Then completely melts away. I will be writing this up as soon as I light a few more motors.

Likewise, I will be documenting my igniter testing. I have an easier way to make BkNO3 igniters without pressing pellets.
 
No, a metal burst disk should not be used as a nozzle plug. It's ok as a burst diagram for pressurized tanks but the irregular burst shape affects the thrust. In professional rockets the plug is made from a material that melts more easily.

I started testing burst disks earlier on the year after running various igniter formulas in my test 'bombe'. The igniter tests are documented in a research thread here. I haven't completed my burst disk testing because the hot summer and work load got in the way. But it is a fairly cheap and simple method. The goal is to maintain 300-400 psi until the motor fully lights. The plastic disk weakens when hot. Then completely melts away. I will be writing this up as soon as I light a few more motors.

Likewise, I will be documenting my igniter testing. I have an easier way to make BkNO3 igniters without pressing pellets.

Looking forward to reading your results John.
 
No, a metal burst disk should not be used as a nozzle plug. It's ok as a burst diagram for pressurized tanks but the irregular burst shape affects the thrust. In professional rockets the plug is made from a material that melts more easily.

I started testing burst disks earlier on the year after running various igniter formulas in my test 'bombe'. The igniter tests are documented in a research thread here. I haven't completed my burst disk testing because the hot summer and work load got in the way. But it is a fairly cheap and simple method. The goal is to maintain 300-400 psi until the motor fully lights. The plastic disk weakens when hot. Then completely melts away. I will be writing this up as soon as I light a few more motors.

Likewise, I will be documenting my igniter testing. I have an easier way to make BkNO3 igniters without pressing pellets.

Excellent point, and not one I would have readily considered. That's why it's always good to talk about these things before doing them.

Really looking forward to those results on both the igniters and the burst discs! I'm eager for a safe way to do high-altitude staging, and I think a lot of other people are, too. Gonna read through that thread in the meantime.
 
I've been "working" on BKNO3 staging igniter design lately. I put working in quotes because really I'm just following the lead of a mate who's way more knowledgeable regarding rocketry that I am. Here's what we're working towards.

- When sizing BKNO3 igniters you need to know the following variables.
  • The throat diameter
  • The core diameter
  • The core length
- You then use the above values to calculate the mass flow rate of the operating motor.
- 10% of mass flow is the "target" for a staging igniter.
- A test rig will be used and will be a steel pipe the same diameter and length of the core of the motor we're looking to ignite. Both ends will be welded shut and then a hole will be placed on one end with a diameter identical to the nozzle throat diameter.
- Multiple tests will be run with either a pressure transducer or a load cell to measure the mass flow rate until we hit the 10% mass flow target.

Apparently the 10% mass flow metric was derived from testing at China Lake in the sixties. The theory behind it is that with 10% mass flow you generate enough gas to get choked flow at the nozzle. Once this happens and the exhaust is sonic there's no way for external conditions to affect the burning of the motor during start up. Given that you get repeatable results independent of altitude or airspeed. Plus plugging the motor isn't required.

I'll try to document this as much as possible.
 
We were planning on using a BKNO3 igniter. We did not have an ATF Explosives User's Permit and were developing pellets using polyester resin as binder per Mil Spec 46994B. With a professional BKNO3 igniter as plugger and others have said the goal is "instant-on" - the igniter is to bring the motor to above the critical pressure (50-150 psi) for appx. 100 ms and apply a certain heat flux. This pressure goal can be aimed for without worrying about the dynamics of sealing the nozzle to burst at a certain pressure.

Since such an igniter is quite violent, we intended to do a static fire test of the M1378 with the robust BKNO3 igniter the week prior to our launch, but another team member mistakenly sent the liner for the static fire to New Mexico, along with the flight hardware. Thus we had no way to static fire the igniter, and due to fears of over pressurizing the motor, we instead flew with a thin aluminum burst disk (a few layers of aluminum tape) and sealed/bonded it to the nozzle exit diameter Silicone glue. The igniter used was a Quickburst Fat Boy, a long burning igniter that isn't able to pressurize the motor rapidly enough. The igniter fired but the motor chuffed out. I suspect the ambient pressure in the motor core had dropped to that of the atmospheric pressure at 35 kft, meaning the motor wasn't perfectly sealed.


For future flights, both for Princeton Rocketry Club, and Operation Space, Inc., an organization that I serve as design lead for, we plan on obtaining BKNO3 pellets with a burn time of approximately 50-100 ms, and sizing the igniter charge per the Bryan-Lawrence relation, which is another method (like the mass flux plugger mentioned) used in industry. https://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/307914.pdf
FYI the quotes we are getting for the BKNO3 are over $5000 at this time for a MOQ, not including HAZMAT freight from GA.

The charge required seems quite large: I calculated 10g of BKNO3 from the equation, with a range of 5g-20g. This seems like a lot, but for reference the 2.75" FFAR rocket uses ~8g of BKNO3 pellets, with a total impulse of ~5000 Ns. Using this as a guideline, then one develops a testing apparatus of a steel pipe closed at both ends, with one end having a hole equal to the nozzle exit diameter. A pressure transducer is mounted to the apparatus to ensure that the pressure-time curve is appropriate, applying a pressure of ~50-100 psi for at least ~50 ms. The charge size can be modified at this time iteratively. We do not plan on sealing the nozzle since it was found to be unreliable last time.

Our plan for the igniter itself for Operation Space, Inc. is using the threaded bolt that goes into the forward closure of a Pro98 6GXL case, drilling a hole through the forward closure, and installing a much longer threaded bolt to serve as a solid mounting point for the threaded igniter assembly. Obviously the forward closure is sealed with epoxy. The igniter assembly is a 3D printed basket that is slightly smaller than the core diameter of the N5800 sustainer, and the igniter assembly holds the BKNO3 pellets. The 3D printed igniter basket is threaded and fits onto the rod, and sits inside the top grain core. 2 electric matches go inside the igniter basket for redundancy. For the N5800 motor I calculated a charge mass of ~30g.

For a bit more information about solid rocket motor ignition, here is a paper from the development of the Black Brant sounding rocket. They experienced upper stage ignition failures, and redesigned their igniter to be more reliable. They found that for their APCP propellant ignition was probable at 50 psi for a heat flux of 627 W/cm^2 for at least 40 msec. They also note that the core mass flux guideline was wildly inaccurate.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u8cSIIOlEvsLKY0CcCBbqWKnNdOCtdOB/view?usp=sharing

Since their final igniter charge mass was similar to that predicted by the Bryan-Lawrence equation, I suspect that we will be okay without measuring the heat flux, and that an igniter charge mass in the Bryan Lawrence range will produce sufficient heat flux. I do think that measuring the pressure output in a vented chamber will be a useful experiment. Upon verification of the pressure-time trace, we will static fire the rocket motor to make sure it doesn't over pressurize and CATO.

For more information about the theory of solid rocket motor ignition and igniters see the following literature:

1.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19710020870.pdf
Be sure to read the igniters section, and the pelleted pyrotechnic igniters section. Pyrogen (propellant) igniters are typically for larger solid rocket motors like the Shuttle SRBs, from my understanding, and often have a pelleted pyrotechnic in the ignition train. Ignore the initiators section, as it is deceiving - this is only the initial spark that starts the ignition charge. For relatively small solid rocket motors like these we are using an ematch (squib) as an initiator. Read the ignition theory section, specifically about the critical pressure. Below the critical pressure (often equivalent to about 30,000 ft) ignition cannot be achieved regardless of heat flux applied. Since copper thermite igniters do not produce substantial gas, no matter how "hot" they are they will not light a sustainer at high altitude.

2.
"Igniter Material Considerations and Applications:"
A very useful, short, and simple paper detailing different igniters for solid rocket motors, from copper thermite to BKNO3, and how early igniters were a flash can of black powder, and how and why igniters moved to the precise wire cage BKNO3 pellets we see today (mostly to minimize shock from powder).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uzv4NAQa-V_2T_K86CjnDuqpjW5LL6KK/view?usp=sharing
 
By the way, I apologize for the flight report delay. We are working with ASTOS on trajectory analysis so we have a better idea of what caused a trajectory deviation. I'm also quite busy with school, but I plan to share it with the public within a month.
 
Just saw this:

Rocket club refines safety protocol in response to accidents at other universities
BY BERNARD MENDEZ
Posted:
February 13, 2019 12:00 am
https://dailybruin.com/2019/02/13/r...esponse-to-accidents-at-other-universities-2/


It involves greater oversight by professionals over the student teams. Sounds like a good idea for other university teams to follow.

Bob Clark
Having read through this, my one concern is that it may place too much authority in the hands of faculty disconnected from the project at hand. As the president of my school's rocket club, I can confidently say that I am better able to judge the safety of our launches than our faculty sponsor, whose area of expertise is not in launch vehicle or rocket motor design (he works in CFD research). While I am happy to take advice and direction (and do on a regular basis) from our NAR and TRA mentors, I don't see the advantage of having the faculty have control over the club leadership. However, I do think it would be worthwhile to have NAR and TRA mentors have greater involvement with the operations of a club, and more defined abilities to step in and make changes in the interest of safety. I just don't have confidence that the engineering faculty would do any better than the students working on the project.
 
Having read through this, my one concern is that it may place too much authority in the hands of faculty disconnected from the project at hand. As the president of my school's rocket club, I can confidently say that I am better able to judge the safety of our launches than our faculty sponsor, whose area of expertise is not in launch vehicle or rocket motor design (he works in CFD research). While I am happy to take advice and direction (and do on a regular basis) from our NAR and TRA mentors, I don't see the advantage of having the faculty have control over the club leadership. However, I do think it would be worthwhile to have NAR and TRA mentors have greater involvement with the operations of a club, and more defined abilities to step in and make changes in the interest of safety. I just don't have confidence that the engineering faculty would do any better than the students working on the project.

This is actually what we asked for as a result of our investigation into the OLVT incident at BALLS last year and our subsequent work with Dr. Eric Paterson of Virginia Tech. This doesn’t place authority in the hands of disconnected faculty so much as requiring connection to projects by faculty and better communication between faculty and Tripoli and NAR.
With Dr. Paterson’s help we were able to speak to the ADCA meeting at the AIAA SciTech Conference in San Diego in early January where we discussed the incidents mentioned in this article and urged the Aerospace Department heads to include rocketry safety as a prerequisite and involve more Tripoli mentors earlier.
 
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