Saturn V from Arkansas [Estes #2157]

[Crawf56]

Working on the plastic wraps. Using 3M 77 spray adhesive.

 

[Luzwingnut]

Crawf56, you're doing an impressive job. Thoroughly enjoying your build. Very instructive.

 

[afadeev]

Are you asking about conical paper shrouds, or plastic wraps?

The Paper Shroud. I attempted to get the shroud over the coupler, but the glue grabbed at the top of the shroud, and the paper had become "wet" by the glue, so moving the shroud = tearing the shroud.

Yeah, I had that happen plenty of times.
Sometimes, you can still peel the parts apart with minimal damage, but other times, they are set for good.

Now the real question is: how well does the plastic wrap fit over the paper cone?
And how much of a "lip" does the plastic wrap create?

I think the main reasons for the conical paper wraps are:

1. To look like the real Saturn V.
2. To aid aerodynamics (like the real Saturn V).
3. To give some strengthening, which is possibly more of a vibrational dampening effect than straight structural.

It's even simpler then that - without enough of a "lip" created by paper shroud + plastic wrap, the forward end / "3rd stage" of the rocket would just slide down into the main airframe.
That will really ruin the look of the rocket, and is likely not what neither you, nor Estes want.

So, what to do without much of a "lip" from paper conical shroud?
Perhaps, you can push the plastic wrap out a bit more to create more of a "lip", and then fill the gap between plastic and paper wraps with thick CA (to strengthen the exposed edge of the plastic wrap)?

I realize that - I was attempting to use the same terminology in the instructions

Fair point, I'm trying as well, though I keep catching myself wondering where the 2nd stage went ;-)

 

[Crawf56]

Putting the plastic wraps on:

 

[kuririn]

Nice job. I see you've got the tunnels nicely lined up, and did your homework on the adhesive. Looking good.

 

[Crawf56]

Thanks kuririn. And a quick assembly.

Some days, I am a Bear of Very Little Brain (no amount of education can stop you from being stupid, at times), and I finally understand what you guys are talking about with the 3rd Stage section.

Fortunately, there is a 3rd Stage Body Wrap Reduction [conical plastic wrap] that I can use to help save the 3rd Stage from sliding into the Main Body Tube. I might also add some stops for the 3rd Stage Section to seat against, inside the Main Body Tube.

The 3rd Stage section and the LM [Landing Module] section are combined to become the nose cone.

 

[Crawf56]

A closer look at the Nose Section (3rd & LM). Note that the conical shrouds/wraps are NOT glued yet.

 

[Crawf56]

And looking closer at the fit between the Main Body Tube and the 3rd Stage.

I cut the conical paper wrap [ok, actually called the "3rd Stage Foundation Wrap"] right on the cutting line. If I did it over, I might add 1/8 to 1/4 inch to the lower/wider side of the shroud/paper/conical thingy. There is a little bit of overhang (which I am pointing to......eww, need to trim my nail).

Any way, there is a plastic wrap that will also fit here, and allow me to add overhang.

Man, all this 'wrap' make'n me want some Gin & Juice......

 

[Crawf56]

By the way, thanks for the compliments, guys.

The 3M 77 Adhesive Spray is something of a "one shot" process: if you don't stick right, brother, then you stuck it wrong.

An important part of the process is sorting out how you are going to lay your tube, in order to apply the plastic wrap. That is why you have seen a series of pics at my kitchen table, rather than at my workbench.

After I figured out how and where to apply the plastic wrap, I took the plastic wrap outside (well ventilated), laid the wrap on some cardboard with the inner side facing up, and sprayed the 3M 77.

Note that you are NOT supposed to immediately apply the wrap on the model. Per the 3M 77 instructions, you supposed to let the adhesive dry until it is 'tacky' (no longer wet), then apply it to the tube. The dry time is about 5 minutes, then you press it on the model.

I got the 3M 77 at a local hardware store.

 

[Luzwingnut]

Did you use pencil mark indexing while trial fitting these plastic pieces to the rocket tube for alignment prior to final attachment?

 

[JJSR]

If you don't wait that few minutes, you'll be able to move the pieces around for alignment, It'll set just as good.

 

[Crawf56]

Did you use pencil mark indexing while trial fitting these plastic pieces to the rocket tube for alignment prior to final attachment?

Yes. One of the first things you do in construction is draw a line down the side of the Main Body Tube, and mark where the plastic wraps go. [See Post #24 in this thread.]

 

[BBowmaster]

The care and detail you’re putting into your build is impressive... and intimidating. I’m getting scared to start mine.

I have an April deadline for Discovery Days at our 4H Rocket Club though, so I’ll likely be using this thread as secondary instructions.

 

[Crawf56]

The care and detail you’re putting into your build is impressive... and intimidating. I’m getting scared to start mine.
I have an April deadline for Discovery Days at our 4H Rocket Club though, so I’ll likely be using this thread as secondary instructions.

A few thoughts:
1) Get started!
2) The Estes instructions are excellent. Pretty much all I am doing is following the instructions.
3) Be patient. Do some work, and let the glue dry.
And keep in mind that this is a sport scale model. A lot of the extra strengthening, modifying parts, etc., are not necessary for the basic model rocket, flying on E engines.

 

[captbk]

Ive been following your build and just want to say great job. Im at the same point with my build (kit #1969). Only thing I did different from the instructions is instead of spray adhesive, I used Gorilla Wood Glue on the wraps. I found there is a little time to adjust the final position of the wrap with the wood glue. Now Im at the point of attaching fins and farings and I am waiting to see how you are going to do yours. Im worried about popping fins off on landings or at the very least crushing the thin plastic fairings. It all seems so fragile at the base of the rocket.

 

[Crawf56]

Ive been following your build and just want to say great job. Im at the same point with my build (kit #1969). Only thing I did different from the instructions is instead of spray adhesive, I used Gorilla Wood Glue on the wraps. I found there is a little time to adjust the final position of the wrap with the wood glue. Now Im at the point of attaching fins and farings and I am waiting to see how you are going to do yours. Im worried about popping fins off on landings or at the very least crushing the thin plastic fairings. It all seems so fragile at the base of the rocket.

For the fins & stuff, I am planning to use 5 minute epoxy [Gorilla Glue brand] with microballoons. The microballoons look like powder, and add a little more rigidity to the 5 minute epoxy. The microballoons also decrease the cure time, turning 5 minute epoxy into "3 minute" epoxy.

 

[Crawf56]

Well, some days the bear gets you...……

I got a bad glue joint when I made the wrap the first time. Going back with another paper splice to make it right. Which is why you should always keep scrap material.

 

[Crawf56]

OK, attaching the shroud/wrap/conic to the LM section.

I put the 'conical reduction' on the tube, then drew a line to mark location. Took the shroud off, then put the Elmer's All-Purpose Glue on. All told in the instructions.

 

[Crawf56]

You know, these Estes guys just may know what they are doing.

Using white glue, I put a bead around the inside base of the cone (per the instructions). Then immediately slid it over the tube.

The glue seemed to slightly soften the cone material, allowing it to slide over the top of the Lower Tube. End result was a very good fit (I hope).

 

[Crawf56]

Also adding a center section to the 3rd Stage tube, per instructions. This is one of the center pieces, after a fair amount OD sanding.

 

[Crawf56]

This is for afadeev: Aerotech E15-4W motors from Sirius Rocketry.

 

[Crawf56]

OK, working on the 3rd Stage shroud/conic/wrap/reduction. Note where the glue is applied: along the lower inside of the shroud. I added the glue all the way around.

Also, my second try at getting the seem glued correctly.

 

[Crawf56]

Here is the shroud in-place on the 3rd Stage. I am pointing to the line that I made when I originally marked the top location of the shroud/wrap.

After applying white glue, a immediately put the shroud over the tube, and in place.

The white glue SOFTENED the shroud/wrap a little (at top and bottom), allowing the shroud to slide down a little (and deform a little) to make a good fit on the base of the 3rd Stage.

NOTE: I had to use my finger nails to push against the top edge of the shroud/wrap to get it to move down that extra little bit.

 

[Crawf56]

Something that I had forgotten, is that most (not all) Estes rockets are designed to use white glue for construction.

The 'yellow' wood glues (such as Titebond) can be a little 'heavy' on the paper and tubes used to construct Estes rockets. In other words, the wood glues can sometimes cause model rocket components to deform, especially if too much yellow glue is used.

I have wondered if the best glue for constructing this model is simple Elmer's white glue.

 

[Matt_The_RocketMan]

SO was it worth the money to buy this Model? I was wondering if i could purchase one.
What would be its max altitude with those engines?

 

[Crawf56]

Starting work on the fins.

Man, I really, really, really considered making these out of balsa wood or plywood. Or purchasing some aftermarket fins.

But, to stay true to the project, I will use what I have.

 

[kuririn]

Something that I had forgotten, is that most (not all) Estes rockets are designed to use white glue for construction.

The 'yellow' wood glues (such as Titebond) can be a little 'heavy' on the paper and tubes used to construct Estes rockets. In other words, the wood glues can sometimes cause model rocket components to deform, especially if too much yellow glue is used.

I have wondered if the best glue for constructing this model is simple Elmer's white glue.

View attachment 374774

I have read that when dry, white glue is as strong as yellow (wood) glue. Just that it takes much longer to "grab" and dry. So it's a better choice for paper shrouds, especially. If you had tried to slide that shroud down with your fingernail using yellow glue, it probably would have resulted in a disaster.

 

[Crawf56]

SO was it worth the money to buy this Model? I was wondering if i could purchase one.
What would be its max altitude with those engines?

Yes, it is actually quite a bit of model for the money. But I would recommend the newer release [a re-release of #1969] over this model [#2157, roughly 10 years old].

The new #1969 has injection molded fins, which means they are completely formed (I think). Hence easier to assemble, and sturdier.

The Estes website lists the altitude with a E30-4 motor of 350 feet. It recommends a E12-4 for first launch.

At some point, I plan to purchase an altimeter to check this model.

 

[Matt_The_RocketMan]

Yes, it is actually quite a bit of model for the money. But I would recommend the newer release [a re-release of #1969] over this model [#2157, roughly 10 years old].

The new #1969 has injection molded fins, which means they are completely formed (I think). Hence easier to assemble, and sturdier.

The Estes website lists the altitude with a E30-4 motor of 350 feet. It recommends a E12-4 for first launch.

At some point, I plan to purchase an altimeter to check this model.

How much did you get yours for and where did you purchase it? i had several great websites sent for a cheaper price than the $89 one from Estes.

 

[SecondRow]

Starting work on the fins.

Man, I really, really, really considered making these out of balsa wood or plywood. Or purchasing some aftermarket fins.

But, to stay true to the project, I will use what I have.

View attachment 374775

View attachment 374776

It looks like you have an older version of #2157 with vacuform fins. Later production runs of the #2157 kit came with injection molded fins, which are much easier to put together and, from what I’ve read in this forum, hold up much better in flight. Mine came with the newer fins, and they have held up well. You can order a set of those fins from Estes. https://www.estesrockets.com/073156-saturn-v-plastic-fins