Estes 1969 Saturn V Status

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mikec said:
Looks pretty decent to me!

The 1969 version only has four ullage rockets, so that should decrease the amount of masking on the interstage substantially. And if the fairings fit better, that should also help. But I don't think there's any way to get away from the masking being pretty painful as long as they use the vacuform wraps.
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If you zoom in on the right hand F1 engine fairing, you can see the white blotch in the middle of the black area. I was so hung up about the edges I didn't notice the tape had actually lifted in some of the middles of the black sections and got underspray on the centers of some of the black areas!!! Turns out the Peter Alway trick of a fresh black sharpie is *amazingly good* on the Rustoleum 2x Flat black paint. You have to view it in very glancing light to even notice it... even in sunlight.
 
Alright... anyone have a favorite spray adhesive for these wraps? Two down and my corners are pulling up. Need to solve it before I try to put the S-I/S-II big one.

Homer
 
Homer_S said:
Alright... anyone have a favorite spray adhesive for these wraps? Two down and my corners are pulling up. Need to solve it before I try to put the S-I/S-II big one.

Homer
Click to expand...
I've used Scotch 3M permanent photomount spray for my 1/100 little Joe II's wrap. Still holding after 5+ years.

You could tack the edges down with a very careful application of cyano.
 
I jumped over to Apogee and looked at their Saturn V assembly videos. They give two options: CA or double sided tape. They also seem to suggest scuffing the back side. Further note the tape will result in a bit of a gap or leave the wrap a little long to cover up. I'm going to try CA on my edge issue. Still not positive if I'm sticking with the spray I'm using or switching to something else. I have the feeling edges will still end up with CA either way.

Homer
 
Some people swear by contact cement (the old smelly stuff in the bottle with the brush) and some have recommended 3M 90 spray adhesive. I used 3M Super 77 spray but don't recommend it -- it's too sticky to reposition but not sticky enough to hold down the edges well, at least in my experience.

Double-sided tape sounds like a good option.
 
mikec said:
Some people swear by contact cement (the old smelly stuff in the bottle with the brush) and some have recommended 3M 90 spray adhesive.
Click to expand...

+1 on the 3M High Strength 90 spray adhesive. It has properties similar to contact cement, but allows a few seconds for minor repositioning if necessary.

Just spray a single light coat on each surface, allow 5ish minutes for the solvent to flash off, and bring the parts together. Be aware that the adhesive comes out in an unusual web-like lace patter, which leads many to think that something has gone wrong, or that additional adhesive is required.

Trust me: use a single coat on each surface, don't freak out at the unusual appearance, allow time for the solvent to flash off, and you'll be thrilled with the results. I've had none of the lifting problems that many report with the Type 77 adhesive.

Conveniently, the High Strength 90 is available at Home Depot.

James
 
Homer_S said:
I jumped over to Apogee and looked at their Saturn V assembly videos. They give two options: CA or double sided tape. They also seem to suggest scuffing the back side. Further note the tape will result in a bit of a gap or leave the wrap a little long to cover up. I'm going to try CA on my edge issue. Still not positive if I'm sticking with the spray I'm using or switching to something else. I have the feeling edges will still end up with CA either way.

Homer
Click to expand...
I've used the CA method on both his Saturn V and Saturn 1b with great success. I've been using it on the styrene wraps on Sheri's Saturn V as well. No problems to date.
 
A word of caution: test whatever adhesive you will use on some scrap styrene first. I have had a certain brand of contact cement melt styrene. And a certain brand of thin CA crumble the wrap. Even when used sparingly. Thick CA, however, worked fine for me.

Styrene wrap after a line of thin CA was wicked on the seam:
IMG_20190104_083611.jpg
 
Homer_S said:
I jumped over to Apogee and looked at their Saturn V assembly videos. They give two options: CA or double sided tape. They also seem to suggest scuffing the back side. Further note the tape will result in a bit of a gap or leave the wrap a little long to cover up. I'm going to try CA on my edge issue. Still not positive if I'm sticking with the spray I'm using or switching to something else. I have the feeling edges will still end up with CA either way.

Homer
Click to expand...

Yeah I used some thin CA on my centuri wraps... it mostly worked but it did seem to have issues in a few small spots. Made me wonder whether it was the CA or the age of the wraps. Kuririn's experience seems to verify that it's the CA... dangerous stuff. Use thick then I imagine with a nice narrow teflon extender tip.
 
James Duffy said:
+1 on the 3M High Strength 90 spray adhesive. It has properties similar to contact cement, but allows a few seconds for minor repositioning if necessary.

Just spray a single light coat on each surface, allow 5ish minutes for the solvent to flash off, and bring the parts together. Be aware that the adhesive comes out in an unusual web-like lace patter, which leads many to think that something has gone wrong, or that additional adhesive is required.

Trust me: use a single coat on each surface, don't freak out at the unusual appearance, allow time for the solvent to flash off, and you'll be thrilled with the results. I've had none of the lifting problems that many report with the Type 77 adhesive.

Conveniently, the High Strength 90 is available at Home Depot.

James
Click to expand...


I don't know if the 3m photomount permanent spray I have is the type 77 or what... but it holds very well when applied to the surfaces of two sheets of printer paper. The next day I could not peel them apart without tearing the paper. I expect that the key to some of these spray adhesives might be to try and ensure good contact overnight... and it may be advantageous (if it's even possible) to spray the wrap and the surface of the tube and then wrap tape in effort to clamp it down, so to speak. In my case I joined the two sheets of paper together just short of 30 seconds after spraying them and gave it a good rub down.
 
I just finished putting most of the wraps on my Apogee Saturn V. I used the CA method that Tim uses in his video and it worked quite well. I used BSI Super Gold thin https://bsi-inc.com/hobby/super_gold.html it didn't attack the styrene like the regular thin CA I have. This would be my recommendation, although I wish I'd tried the two sided tape method.
 
kuririn said:
A word of caution: test whatever adhesive you will use on some scrap styrene first. I have had a certain brand of contact cement melt styrene. And a certain brand of thin CA crumble the wrap. Even when used sparingly. Thick CA, however, worked fine for me.

Styrene wrap after a line of thin CA was wicked on the seam:
View attachment 370565
Click to expand...
Use thin "Foam Safe" CA. It won't ruin the wraps, used it on several projects with no problem.
 
I used 3M Super 77, and it worked well enough for me. There were a couple edges that didn't stay down, so I wicked BSI thin CA, and it didn't harm the wraps. Where the wraps meet, to hide the seam, I laid down a thin piece of scrap and welded with Squadron Plastic Weld.
 
This hasn't failed me yet. Put a strip of wood over the seam. Wrap 3 rubber bands around it, walk away for a couple hours.20190105_092719.jpeg
 
I wasn't going to get one of these as I have too many now, but was intrigued by the blow molded transition, and the Revel lunar lander. Concerned that the Lunar Lander was 1/96, not 1/100 but knew I would not be able to tell the difference. So ordered it via MegaHobby, and received it last week. Just opened it to compare. Looks like a very nice kit, and was surprised on the Lunar Lander, as it looks like it is actually from the Heller 1/100th scale. I guess Revel acquired them? I have the Heller, and started building it some time back, and then set it on the shelf, but pulled it out to compare, and it looks like even the sprues are identical.IMG_20190105_110933320.jpg IMG_20190105_111006382.jpg IMG_20190105_110944578.jpg IMG_20190105_110950185.jpg IMG_20190105_110958870.jpg
 
mikeyd said:
I wasn't going to get one of these as I have too many now, but was intrigued by the blow molded transition, and the Revel lunar lander. Concerned that the Lunar Lander was 1/96, not 1/100 but knew I would not be able to tell the difference. So ordered it via MegaHobby, and received it last week. Just opened it to compare. Looks like a very nice kit, and was surprised on the Lunar Lander, as it looks like it is actually from the Heller 1/100th scale. I guess Revel acquired them? I have the Heller, and started building it some time back, and then set it on the shelf, but pulled it out to compare, and it looks like even the sprues are identical.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm... I was wondering about that myself. I never acquired the Heller kit and I knew Revell's original was 1/96.

Re: spray adhesive. I note the 3m 90 stuff says of one-sided application "not recommended" while the 3m 77 doesn't say that at all. I know it's certainly possible to mask off areas to spray adhesive on the tube but considering the amount of masking needed for painting, I'm not really relishing the idea of *more* masking! Not to mention the cans of 90 and 77 are around 5 times the size of this 30 year old can of photomount stuff I have, which is still at least 80% full still! Like I said, my 1/100 little joe wrap is as secure as the day I put it on the tube whose curvature is a lot tighter being a BT-58 vs a BT-101.

I'm just not sure it's worth getting the can of 90 since I can use the photomount and then run a light bead of plastic compatible cyano around the edges.
 
mikeyd said:
...looks like it is actually from the Heller 1/100th scale. I guess Revel acquired them?
Click to expand...

No, Revell (now Revell of Germany) and Heller are separate companies. Model companies lease mold tools from each other all the time. It is not uncommon for the same identical kit to appear in multiple boxings from multiple companies over the years.
 
I'm going with 3M 77 and tack down any floating seams with sparing CA. Taking a pause to fill in the "fillet divots" that appeared after a few days of drying: the top one is trivial, the bottom one is maybe 1/2 inch above the S-IC thrust mounting wrap and below the first S-IC intertank wrap. Pain to sand...

Homer
 
Anyone planning on using solvaset or something like that on the decals? I note that the instructions call for using flat paints... I'm expecting some issues there, and minimally requiring a coat of clear flat overcoat. Does something like solvaset on the decals help with adhesion and so on? My old Centuri Saturn Ib had a "USA" decal split in the middle at a diagonal and slightly peel up even though I gave it a clear overcoat... maybe I didn't use enough clear on that spot? The Centuri Saturn V instructions say apply clear overcoat after a few hours of decal drying... seems too soon to me...
 
From my model aircraft days, I think of SolvaSet being more about softening the decal to conform to the surface more than actual adhesion. What I have since leaned is that a glossy surface is better to let the clear backing of the decal "disappear." Then seal the whole thing first with clear gloss and then with clear flat. Flat looks more realistic but wears more quickly. Learned that sequence from painting Warhammer 40K miniatures. When it looks shiny, refresh the flat coat.

Homer
 
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Homer_S said:
From my model aircraft days, I think of SolvaSet being more about softening the decal to conform to the surface more than actual adhesion. What I have since leaned is that a glossy surface is better to let the clear backing of the decal "disappear." Then seal the whole thing first with clear gloss and then with clear flat. Flat looks more realistic but wears more quickly. Learned that sequence from painting Warhammer 40K miniature. When it looks shiny, refresh the flat coat.

Homer
Click to expand...

Gloss certainly works better from a decal point of view for sure. Personally I find it much easier to apply flat paint though for some reason (probably because building up mist coats results in fewer runs and it's a pain to get a good wet coat on gloss this way... at least from my experience with spray cans). I was thinking solvaset might be better for decals on flat paint to get them to conform to the rough surface but I have no idea if that'll happen for flats anyway... I guess I've got nothing to lose here by trying since I did my centuri saturn in flats already.

Reason why I didn't use gloss is I think it tends to cause higher ridges on masking tape. I've used scotch tape for masking gloss on some of my scale/non-scale jobs and it's not bad.
 
Good point on the drippy factor with glossy paints. Ditto on the mask lines. I'll try that: prime, paint flat white, clear gloss, mask, paint flat black, de-mask, clean up/cover any stray paint, clear gloss. Then decals, clear gloss, flat gloss. Lots of layers... should only add an ounce or three! Finished my sanding, now back to wraps.

Homer
 
DeltaVee said:
Funny, I don't really worry about weight much, just stability! I guess I've gotten over the need for maximum altitude (on just about every rocket) a long time ago!
Click to expand...
Especially with this model... appearance is everything!

Homer
 

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