Any commercial pilots here? I have some questions..

eggtimer rocketry
SilicdyneTRF
The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
rockets

rockets

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
1,274
Reaction score
56
Location
Denver, CO
Are there any commercial pilots here on TRF? If so, I have some questions for y'all.
I have always loved flying, and I've also wanted to be a commercial pilot for a year or so now.

I have some questions, though about how to become a pilot for an airline or a cargo line..



1. Do you have to do have a college degree to become a pilot?
I would be OK with getting a degree in aeronautics, but spending around 50K for college plus spending another 50K on flight training would not be very doable for me.


2. What do you do to get hours in a decently quick manor?
I know that most airlines won't hire anyone unless they have several thousands of hours, but how do you get those hours in a year or 2? Who would want to hire anyone with little to no experience?



Here's my plan for becoming a pilot, and please correct me if any of these things would not be possible, or would need to be thought through more.



From age 18-20 Save up as much money as possible. Live at home, and try to spend a very minimal amount of money. Hopefully I can save up around 60K in 3 years time.

At age 20 or 21 start flight training.

At age 22 or 23 complete regular flight training and start getting ratings for instruments, jets, etc..

At age 25 Complete all flight training and ratings, and get a job with an executive jet (or prop) airline that goes out of a small airport, (For me it would be Lunken airport in Cincinnati, OH)

At Age 29 I would hopefully have enough flight hours to apply to a feeder airline for Delta, United or American Airlines, and start flying regional jets.

At age 34 apply to a cargo airline, like Amazon Prime Air, DHL or something similar flying Boeing 767 or similar jets.

And that's my goal!



Any help, suggestions, criticism or any general comments are welcome!





Thanks,
 
My understanding ( I am not a pilot ) is that even these small regionals are poorly paid and highly competitive. That's just what I believe I recall from people who had military flight hours.
 
dhbarr said:
My understanding ( I am not a pilot ) is that even these small regionals are poorly paid and highly competitive. That's just what I believe I recall from people who had military flight hours.
Click to expand...
Yes, regional jet pilots usually only make around 30K per year..



Thanks,
 
You are kinda on the right track. While I don't fly anymore and never flown professionally I do have some insight as mistakes were made. I went the route you outlined on line 1. I obtained a degree in Aviation Sciences from an expensive four year and missed my shot due to 911. Flight schools were boarded up while the FAA looked into every school, instructor and student. Ultimately it diverted me to the military where I found out during OCS I was going home due to a severe high frequency hearing loss. This is known as the NAMI Whammy.

So how most people do this is get their private, then instrument, then commercial, then CFI. Once you get a CFI start working as an instructor. Not only do you get paid (a very little bit) but others are paying for the planes you are PIC in so you build time off their dime. While you are working as a CFI, start making connections and get your multi then MEI. Same thing here, use your MEI and have others pay for your time. When I was training, you needed something like 2000 total with 300ish multi to get a job at the regionals. Multi time is your friend.

Getting a corporate gig flying small jets takes even more as you need to meet the insurance warranty for the airplane. Most will say something like 50 hours in type so nobody will hire you unless you have a type rating in a given airplane with the required hours. You won't get those without a job flying those to begin with. It's also very hard to get those types of jobs. I talk to these people on a daily basis and most will tell you they were in the right place at the right time and knew the right person.

I don't know for sure how old you are but I seem to recall you are a young buck. That's a shame as flight schools right now are filled to the brim with international students due to industry demand. There is a serious lack of pilots and every school I am aware of is cranking out pilots as fast as they can. Down here, the schools are chocked full of Korean and Indian students. They are cranking them out around 50-60 hours. Instrument takes about three times that if I remember correctly (20 years ago).

If it were me, and I were to do it all over with an eye to flying, I'd skip the 4 year degree and get the flight training with an associates degree in something useful like underwater basket weaving. I'd work my fingers to the bone as a CFI and MEI until I met the miniums for the regionals and I'd start applying like mad. Work there for a couple of years then start looking towards freight. That's exactly what a good friend of mine did and he regularly flies overseas driving boxes for a large shipper.

Good luck, Aviation is a great field and provides wonderful rewards but it's also a cruel mistress. It took me a very long time to get a job in the field I am happy with but I'd do it all over again in a heart beat.
 
grouch said:
You are kinda on the right track. While I don't fly anymore and never flown professionally I do have some insight as mistakes were made. I went the route you outlined on line 1. I obtained a degree in Aviation Sciences from an expensive four year and missed my shot due to 911. Flight schools were boarded up while the FAA looked into every school, instructor and student. Ultimately it diverted me to the military where I found out during OCS I was going home due to a severe high frequency hearing loss. This is known as the NAMI Whammy.

So how most people do this is get their private, then instrument, then commercial, then CFI. Once you get a CFI start working as an instructor. Not only do you get paid (a very little bit) but others are paying for the planes you are PIC in so you build time off their dime. While you are working as a CFI, start making connections and get your multi then MEI. Same thing here, use your MEI and have others pay for your time. When I was training, you needed something like 2000 total with 300ish multi to get a job at the regionals. Multi time is your friend.

Getting a corporate gig flying small jets takes even more as you need to meet the insurance warranty for the airplane. Most will say something like 50 hours in type so nobody will hire you unless you have a type rating in a given airplane with the required hours. You won't get those without a job flying those to begin with. It's also very hard to get those types of jobs. I talk to these people on a daily basis and most will tell you they were in the right place at the right time and knew the right person.

I don't know for sure how old you are but I seem to recall you are a young buck. That's a shame as flight schools right now are filled to the brim with international students due to industry demand. There is a serious lack of pilots and every school I am aware of is cranking out pilots as fast as they can. Down here, the schools are chocked full of Korean and Indian students. They are cranking them out around 50-60 hours. Instrument takes about three times that if I remember correctly (20 years ago).

If it were me, and I were to do it all over with an eye to flying, I'd skip the 4 year degree and get the flight training with an associates degree in something useful like underwater basket weaving. I'd work my fingers to the bone as a CFI and MEI until I met the miniums for the regionals and I'd start applying like mad. Work there for a couple of years then start looking towards freight. That's exactly what a good friend of mine did and he regularly flies overseas driving boxes for a large shipper.

Good luck, Aviation is a great field and provides wonderful rewards but it's also a cruel mistress. It took me a very long time to get a job in the field I am happy with but I'd do it all over again in a heart beat.
Click to expand...
Thank you for all of the suggestions!
I will look into becoming a flight instructor, and what steps are involved with that..

I am 15 years old, so I could start flight training now, but I want to wait until I have enough money to keep the training going, and not to keep stopping and starting..



Thanks,
 
Our pilots all happen to be veterans, although some of them went to flight school after they left the service.

They don't all have college degrees. The ones that didn't fly in the military went to private flight schools and obtained all the necessary credentials for a commercial pilot license.

Most gained PIC hours as instructors and tour operators.

Pilots are in high demand. The job involves a lot of stress, a lot of expense to get the hours you need, and a lot of moving. The jobs are there, hit don't hedge your bets on sticking around Cincy.

For what it's worth, mechanics are in high demand too.
 
CFI huh? That's easy. In order to be a CFI you need a commercial license. All the commercial does is let you get paid for your services. You get a commercial after the private but most people get the private then instrument then commercial.

I have an instrument private ticket. I have completed all my training for my commercial and CFI and CFII (certified instrument instructor) but never took the check rides past instrument. The reason was I knew I would be going into the military and did not want a commercial as I knew it wouldn't be utilized and at the time. The thinking was you would be held to a higher standard if anything ever happened like hit a taxiway light. That turned out to be a load of crap but heh, listen to the peanut gallery and get peanut advise. So that was my big mistake. Had I done that, I could get a new medical then go down to an FBO now and get about 10-15 hours to become "comfortable" the take my BFI and get a job as a flight instructor. As it is, I could do what I just outlined and start flying again for funzies but I have no desire to anymore.

Want my advise? Talk your parents into letting you take a discovery flight. They are about 30 minutes or so and generally cost about $50 or at least they used to. See if you like it before you start steering your life in that direction. Then if you like it, get a job at the FBO as a line guy when you are 16. Fuel planes and start learning as much as you can. Heck you'd be making money and building connections as you go. People will give you free rides in all sorts of stuff. I have been in more cool planes than you could imagine but my favorite was a clipped wing Pitts S2B (look it up if you don't know). Get your parents to buy you a good headset and keep it with you during the summer. You never know when you will get an opportunity to take a spin in something cool. Spin....see what I did there??
 
Adding to Grouch, we have some flying clubs with explorer camps during the summer months. One group visited our hangar for a few hours and then got to see some regional jets come in and talk with those crews. They were talking flying rockets the next day as they learned about aviation.

We also have a vintage flying club at our field that maintains a few aircraft amongst their members. They'll give free rides to small kids and have an explorer program for guys your age too.

Riding in a Pitts is on my bucket list, bonus points if I can get an aerobatic ride in one. A nearby FBO offers a thrill ride in a Super Decathalon which my wife has offered to buy me for my birthday. I'll do it, but I still want to fly in a biplane too.
 
grouch said:
CFI huh? That's easy. In order to be a CFI you need a commercial license. All the commercial does is let you get paid for your services. You get a commercial after the private but most people get the private then instrument then commercial.

I have an instrument private ticket. I have completed all my training for my commercial and CFI and CFII (certified instrument instructor) but never took the check rides past instrument. The reason was I knew I would be going into the military and did not want a commercial as I knew it wouldn't be utilized and at the time. The thinking was you would be held to a higher standard if anything ever happened like hit a taxiway light. That turned out to be a load of crap but heh, listen to the peanut gallery and get peanut advise. So that was my big mistake. Had I done that, I could get a new medical then go down to an FBO now and get about 10-15 hours to become "comfortable" the take my BFI and get a job as a flight instructor. As it is, I could do what I just outlined and start flying again for funzies but I have no desire to anymore.

Want my advise? Talk your parents into letting you take a discovery flight. They are about 30 minutes or so and generally cost about $50 or at least they used to. See if you like it before you start steering your life in that direction. Then if you like it, get a job at the FBO as a line guy when you are 16. Fuel planes and start learning as much as you can. Heck you'd be making money and building connections as you go. People will give you free rides in all sorts of stuff. I have been in more cool planes than you could imagine but my favorite was a clipped wing Pitts S2B (look it up if you don't know). Get your parents to buy you a good headset and keep it with you during the summer. You never know when you will get an opportunity to take a spin in something cool. Spin....see what I did there??
Click to expand...
I hope to get a job during the summer at one of my local airports, at CVG I could become a ramp agent, or at Lunken airport I could get a job fueling planes or something similar to that. It would definitely be a great opportunity, and as you said, when you meet people, they can hook you up with a better job, such as being a pilot.

I'll have to look into doing the discovery flight. At my local airport it costs $109 which doesn't seem to be too bad



Thanks,
 
Sounds like you are on the right track. FYI, you want to be a lineman, not a ramp agent. A lineman rules private planes and corporate stuff. A ramp agent taxis in commercial airlines. I can promise you a ramp guy does not have the same type of opportunities as a line guy. I worked a summer on the line in central Texas and it was one of the best and worst jobs I ever had. It was hot, trying and loud as all get out but it was fun and I learned a ton. Heck, sometimes I even miss it a little.
 
I'm days away from flying my Commercial check ride, but more importantly have been hanging around flight schools for years. Even more significantly, I've been around a collegiate Part 141 school for the past few years. This has given me the unusual perspective of being the Old Guy Who Will Never Fly Commercially hanging around all of the young guys getting hired by the regionals. You've been given solid advice up to this point in this thread. I'll add a few more thoughts:

If you can swing the cost for a college flight program, you can do Private, Instrument, Commercial, and CFI in two years. Spend the next two years of college teaching as a CFI and you'll have the hours necessary to get hired as a First Officer with a Restricted ATP by the regionals immediately. You'll have no life for a couple of years, but the money won't be quite as bad as what others have said, about $50K/year.

Spend a couple of years in the right seat at the regionals, and you'll have a couple of choices: slide into the left seat as a captain at a regional, or move to a major at a first officer. Pay will be about the same, about $75-100K/year. At the majors that will ramp up gradually over time. High-time captains at US-flag majors are making $250-300K/year.

A regional will let you fly with an Associates Degree. (Heck, they'll let you fly with an ATP and a pulse!) Currently, the majors want to see four year degrees (doesn't matter in what, so don't stress on that), but that may change as the pilot shortage becomes more dire. And that, my young friend, is the real point here: there is a significant shortage of qualified pilots looming.

The military isn't producing nearly as many pilots as they once did, yet more commercial aircraft are being produced today that ever before. More people fly as passengers in a single day today than did as passengers in an entire year 50 years ago. It's a perfect storm of demand, and a qualified young person starting out today will have an exciting, well-paid career for life. The catch, of course, is the $80-100K barrier of entry to get to the CFI point.

Do it. Learn to fly, learn to teach, get the degree. Live the dream, see the world, and get paid to do it.
 
I've also used online flight simulators as well..
I used to use Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 until it crashed last year.

Now, I use something called GeoFS which is a free online flight simulator.
Sure, it's not 100% accurate, because I'm using it on a laptop and steering with the keypad on my laptop, but I enjoy it, and I have spent many hours doing it. I'll fly passenger planes, small jets and big jets. I practice takeoffs, landings, touch-and-goes, and I also put myself in scenarios where I need to make an emergency landing, so for example, I'll shut off my jets right after takeoff, and I have to try to land safely while at stalling speeds..



Thanks,
 
You may want to check with your local flight school for training discounts for employees. Line personnel can often get flight training at a reduced rate, and I have recently seen schools offering to pay you to get your CFI if you promise to instruct for them for a certain amount of time.

It's a strange career where timing and luck play more of a role than anything else in how successful you are. Beats a real job, though.

20181123_081337.jpg 20181123_081418.jpg
 
Flyfalcons said:
You may want to check with your local flight school for training discounts for employees. Line personnel can often get flight training at a reduced rate, and I have recently seen schools offering to pay you to get your CFI if you promise to instruct for them for a certain amount of time.

It's a strange career where timing and luck play more of a role than anything else in how successful you are. Beats a real job, though.

View attachment 369033 View attachment 369034
Click to expand...
Nice! What plane is that?

I'll look into the line personnel jobs and see what could possibly happen maybe next year..


Thanks,
 
A friend of mine is a private / corporate pilot. (Challenger 600). He got his thru going to an airframe / air-tech school, then working the line, as he worked on his flight time & training. For his solo and to get his hours, he rented a small plane and flew to Calgary (from Montreal) and back. that's about a 2 day flight each way, and a dozen stops! He then got to be a somewhat 'bush pilot' (Northern Quebec). Transitioning from prop to jet takes 'luck' as you need jet hours to get the job, but you need the job to get the hours. He managed to get his jet rating, then bounced around till he landed his current job. He also does freelance work, flying the same type in Italy, Saudi Arabia, and a few other places. He'll be overseas for a month or two. His routine is flying eh corporate head's family to Florida for the week end. He also used to fly a local by the name of Rene Angelil to Vegas to see his wife, Celin Dion.. When he does these flights, he flies them down, then spends 2-4 days in a hotel room. Or he might fly back, only to fly back down to bring them back..

As others have said, it's not a glamorous or hi-pay job as it once was.
 
Thank you all for helping me out and encouraging me!
I hope to score a job at my local airport maybe next year, and set myself up for flight school.

And, you guys are right, I checked, and at my local airport, they give you the flight school at a heavily discounted price if you work there as a line technician.



Thanks,
 
Hi Andrew. Looks like you are looking at this at the right time :). I read an article recently that showed there will be a world-wide pilot shortage which is kicking in now. I will see if I can find the article but I think it was something like 600000 pilots needed in the next 20 years worldwide. It is forcing the airlines to change the way they market the job, changing things to improve career progression, changing training from less air time to more simulator time (cheaper). It really is a major shakeup. The article was in either the AIAA Aerospace America magazine, or the RaES Aerospace mag (UK based).

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...ts-need-for-600000-pilots-as-shortage-451468/

I will post the better article here when I find it.
 
Last edited:
My cousin got flight hours by towing advertising banners. I don't know how available those jobs are, but it's another avenue.
 
I started taking flying lessons back in 2001. I got in about 25 hours (including a few solo) on a Piper Cherokee and Warrior before 9/11 derailed things and I never got back into it. Regarding your questions:

1) None of the flight instructors I knew who were pursuing commercial careers had college degrees.

2) They racked up hours quickly by teaching schmucks like me and taking any side gig they could get.

I don't know what has changed in the last 17 years, but I do know even then it seemed like US pilots were poorly-paid for what they did, especially early in their careers. Anecdotally it seems even worse now.

FWIW this was in class D airspace in a town of 20,000, but ~40 NM from DTW.

Side rant caveat: US airlines seem geared exclusively toward providing the least-expensive airfare possible, at the expense of everything else. They will cut costs at every opportunity to shave $5 off a fare, because that's all most Americans seem to care about. There's a reason why every year the highest-ranked airlines are all outside the US (Singapore, Qatar, ANA, Emirates, EVA, Cathay, Lufthansa). If I were pursuing a career in commercial aviation, I would immediately jettison any notion of working for Delta, United, Southwest, etc. If you're open to working for an overseas airline, you just might make a living wage.

But hell pay aside, over my 42 years I've become a big advocate of "do what you like" and not "do what pays well." If you love what you do, adjust your standard of living accordingly and you're golden.
 
Last edited:
A lot of our expats are working on making their way back to the US. Carriers like Emirates may provide an excellent service to passengers, but the US carriers have clawed their way out of the post-9/11 era in regard to work rules and compensation for employees.
 
I just want to commend you on your goal! The fact that you have a goal and a plan to achieve that goal is fantastic. Put your plan into action and you will be amazed to see how it will all come together!
 
rockets said:
Yes, regional jet pilots usually only make around 30K per year..
Click to expand...

Our guys (RW EMS) make quite a bit more than that, but less than FW on the major airlines. I don't know what the pilots for FW ambulance services make. It has been a while since we had to assist one of those crews.

In an earlier post, you mentioned being near Cincinnati. I have done some work in the summers at the Middletown Airport with the skydiving team. They have a flight school out of there with what looks like reasonable rates too. For comparison, discovery flights in my city are $105.

https://www.mrfti.com/flighttrainingdiscflights.html
 
Another opportunity to consider at your age is USAFA. I was a cadet there and know you'll get experience on equipment you can't even touch elsewhere. After you serve your 5 years, you'll have experience that opens doors to big planes and long routes at the top levels of most airlines. Or you'll spend 20 years in the AF, solidify your retirement, and then be really tempting to the airlines at the grand old age of 43 or so. Serve your country, serve yourself, and fly supersonic with "the best of the best of the best, sir!"
 
My wife and I both fly chartered business jets similar to Flyfalcons. She used to be airline, I never was.
A typical progression to a major airline goes as such-

Flight training-
Private
Instrument
Commercial
Multi-engine Add-on
CFI
CFII
MEI

Then spend a couple years as a CFI teaching to build the 1500 hours required to get hired at a regional airline. In my opinion this is the best way to build time because you get paid rather than the other way around, and this is where you actually LEARN the things you need to know. Being an effective instructor also means you've learned to communicate effectively in the cockpit, in addition to being able to self-evaluate your performance. On top of that, as a captain of an aircraft that requires two crew members, you're once again an instructor.

Get hired at a regional airline. Contrary to popular belief, the money isn't too bad these days. And it's only getting better. Spend as much time there as it takes to upgrade to captain and get 1000 hours of turbine pilot in command time. Then start applying at whichever major airlines sound fun.

Work at a major airline. Make at least $200k/yr and work 12 days a month. Retire rich.

If you want to do cargo, do that after the regionals. FedEx and UPS etc are all great places to be.

If you like corporate (I fly the slightly less fancy Challenger 300, similar to Flyfalcons' 350) it's a slightly more convoluted path. I love it, though. You could potentially skip the regionals altogether and move straight into a major airline from here. Many folks at my company move on to Delta and Southwest. Both great places to be a pilot.

PM me if you have any more questions.
 

Similar threads

brockrwood
In-flight Refueling for Commercial Jet Airliners?
2
Replies
38
Views
2K
Bravo52
Bravo52
B
Do I really need a Cargo Van or U-hall to transport Motor?
2
Replies
42
Views
2K
NTP2
NTP2
S
Any RV people on the board?
2
Replies
30
Views
1K
Onebadhawk
Onebadhawk
stealth6
For the cyclists here (who might actually care about such things)....
Replies
22
Views
457
Kabulrocks
Kabulrocks
Back_at_it
Estes Little Joe I build thread
Replies
9
Views
685
Back_at_it
Back_at_it

Latest posts

Back
Top