New tracker from Apogee?

[afadeev]

said: ↑
Ouch! at $395 I can buy a whole heck of alot of EggFinders! Or a couple more Featherweight GPS units. Both of which I fly. But each to their own

What else would one have to purchase to use the EggFinder or the Featherweight GPS?

Nothing.
Both come with complete "starter packs" (transmitter & receiver, antennas always included, batteries are extra).
Neither adds up to even 1/2 of $395.

Details here:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...er-rocketry-holiday-sale.149080/#post-1835972
https://www.missileworks.com/store/#!/T3-GPS-Tracker-System/c/25228124/offset=0&sort=normal

I have no experience with Featherweight GPS.

Do those additional purchases add up to about $395? or close? I see a lot of units out there where I first have to purchase a receiver then a transmitter and dont forget the antenna......

No, they do not.
If you are not sure, please do your own homework.
Your post is implying that all GPS trackers are as expensive as Apogee, or are incomplete and dysfunctional.
That's just not true.

I get the enthusiasm for the new product, but that's no reason to put down those already in the marketplace.

Based on the items Apogee does sell and how they stand by them, I dont really think he (Tim) is going to try and sell something that is a total pile of junk

I agree with you here.
Time and Brian Hatton (sp?) of Fins & Fire Rocketry (per Apogee's video) who looks to be the brains and the manufacturing behind Apogee's Simple GPS Tracker, must have done some serious testing to bring this to market.

And yes, Apogee's transmitter looks suspiciously like Eggfinder that I am looking at right now, with identical key ingredients, only the whip antenna is replaced with a helical:
- same Maestro Wireless A2235H GPS module
- same Hope RF HM-TRP-915 RF module
See here for yourself: https://eggtimerrocketry.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Eggfinder-TX-Assembly-Manual-RevC1.pdf

I'm not knocking Tim M or Brian H. God knows we need all the vendors we can find for this hobby.
Just stating the facts.

If this was coming from an unknown vendor or manufacturer, I would be more sceptical.

Does anyone know who Brian H is?
Is he on TRF?
Just curios.

If you know anything about Apogee [...] they simply have the best customer service i have ever seen (if there are issues).

I would have to disagree here.
Superior service may have been how Apogee had earned its reputation in the past, but the recent expansion have taken their toll, and not for the better.
I have first-hand experience to back up this statement.

Still, Tim M and Apogee do this hobby a service by providing one-stop-shop for most rocketry needs, and educational YouTube videos on how to utilize may of their products.
I wish them well.

a

 

[Buckeye]

Hmm. I don’t think you looked at that right. A starter kit consists of two identical trackers and a case for the one you assign as a base station. Every unit can be either a transmitter or a base station. Each unit is $150 so for $395 I can buy two complete units, a base station case, and plenty of spare batteries. If I already have one unit that acts as a base station, for $395 I can buy 2.63 trackers.


Tony

Ps: a single base station can track multiple transmitters at the same time so if you’re friends with someone who owns a complete system you can buy just the tracker for $150. They pair via Bluetooth so it’s very easy to move trackers between base stations.

Yeah, I get the multiple trackers you can add on later. However, If you are starting from scratch with nothing, then you probably get the Featherweight starter pack for $352 (plus you need an iOS device). This is similar starting price to the $395 Apogee Simple GPS.

 

[BSNW]

I see every ones point and tend to agree. It is good to see what people are saying before I invest my hard earned hobby money.

It is just that I have been (and others) frustrated with the tracking choices out there other than $600 Garmin. If I spend money on a tracker but need to purchase an iOS device....wait...I dont even know what an iOS device is....then what kind of iOS device.... I know I may be ignorant on things like this, but everyone has their skill set and computers and electronics are not mine.

I am enthusiastic about this product because I can purchase it...and "it" only and use it out of the box. It is limited in what it can do?...yes, but I, like many...just want it to track my rocket. I am willing to pay for that.

I may be wrong (if I am I am very sorry), but is cost the real issue here? folks often spend way more than that on reloads and kits. In this hobby, $400 is nothing for something I can use over and over that will help me find my close to $1000 rocket.

I do see the points of folks who are seriously sceptical...I am thankful for your input. But I tend to be optimistic and am excited that finally someone is selling a tracking device (GPS) that is less than $600 and it works...out of the box. I wanted (and maybe others too) a "just follow the arrow stupid" device.

It just seemed like before it actually got wider use and a chance to prove itself...it was beginning to get panned.

 

[manixFan]

Regardless of which system you like, the good news is that there seems to be a system for everyone at a wide range of price points. I find that really amazing for such a small hobby. Kudos to all the vendors who invest the time and money to make it so.


Tony

 

[BSNW]

TeleGPS from Altus metrum was $214. Then you need a laptop and teledongle starter pack and charger/batteries at another $120-155. Or an Android/iPhone more apps then telebt receiver. Then an arrow antenna 440-3 or -5 yagi at another $110 plus bnc to sma connectors. Then expect the rocketry forum to help you actually use it because sixty pages of manuals sucks. Was it worth the $15 ham ticket? I’d argue yes. Is it simple to use for a novice? No. It took about two weeks of ground testing to get familiar with that system from zero experience. And that was the most plug and play ham setup off the shelf they had.
Add a $30 Uv-5R radio to announce your using the frequency in ham band.

And don’t get me started on RDF. That Telemini V3 turned into a $700 electronics adventure because you need a yaseu VX-6R at minimum to have a “signal meter” functional on a hand held radio to actually track the radio beacon in Telemini. And RDF is a lot more like you play the arrow and sweep with the yagi antenna for a continuing narrower radio beam measured on the signal meter on the hand held rather than all knowing gps with its direction and range.

Granted RDF works in some rocketry high acceleration loadings where gps loses lock. It’s also not bound by ITAR restrictions on Mach or altitude. And I liked electronics as a mechanical engineer student. It still felt confusing at times and without this forum I wouldn’t have gotten past setup of radio equipment. So I understand the valid complaint of somebody wanting a product that works out of the box with limited features for simplicity.

That ham exam is not as simple as a dmv license exam. They ask you about freaking spacecraft antennas at some point. And modes of transmitting. The study guides helped me pass. Otherwise expect to use P=IV and V=IR formulas and some knowledge of identify circuit components is useful from wiring diagrams. Once you have the technicians license it really opens up the doors to better quality trackers but the learning curve is up there. You’ll get more range on the units per dollar spent.

If unit range ,data, or technical details isn’t important then go the simple route. The ham band units act as micro black boxes literally in real time and live real time store data even if the rocket completely explodes in flight. That capability was sorely missing on Featherweight units a college team flew this year. You had to go into google maps and video record the actual phone device then plot a route. The more pricer units do that for you real time. The nicest thing about having a gps flight route in real time stored remotely is Incase the transceiver stops for whatwver reason you still have a valid path of flight. Not just a location. Which is handy for when winds dink with the rocket or obstacles that block RF signals.


There sorry for the rant. It was a helluva learning curve.

I guess THIS (quote above) is really what point I was trying to make in a most basic way....He said it (above) better than I could ever have......Anyway ITS ALL GOOD!

 

[Bat-mite]

As with anything in rocketry, different folks have different interests. For some, least expensive is most important. For others, they like components that they can design and build. For others, an all-in-one, RTF solution is desired. Different price points for each, and no one "right" solution.

I like the BRB900 because it has always worked well for me. $350 for the Tx/Rx, and another $25 for an old handheld hiking navigator gets me to my rocket every time. I don't have the soldering skills (or time to learn) for an Eggfinder, and I likewise don't have time for getting a ham license. The Apogee, for what you get, an all-in-one, stick it in the rocket and walk to it solution, is adequately priced. It could stand to be a little cheaper, but everything at Apogee is a little over-priced. But not overpriced with no give-back. Their newsletters and videos, and really informative web site, make it worth a little extra.

Unless you are a "least expensive is most important" guy, in which case please ignore everything in my second paragraph.

 

[Mick Kelly]

I for one really appreciate that this is available. About 7 or 8 years ago I had some med issues that forced me out of rocketry. Just before that I was eagerly looking at tracking systems but had zero knowledge of what it took to get started, so I didn't get anything. Now that I am back this new tracker is ideal for me to stick my toe in the tracking realm. I am anxiously waiting for next years flying season to try this out. Plug and play for me is just right at this time and I thank the guys for producing such a tracker as this. To me it's amazing that we have this type of support for such a niche hobby. We all want things to be cheaper, but...


Mick Kelly
TRA#02937

 

[Woody's Workshop]

This is kinda what I was looking for.
Except 2 things.
I wanted one for $100.
And I wanted something you could clip to any nose cone BT-50 or larger.
Similar to Estes simple Altimeter.

 

[GlueckAuf]

Next time I decorate the top of yet another of Michigan's 100-year-old oak trees with my handiwork, I'll at least be thankful it was carrying a $200 Trackimo rather than a $400 Apogee Simple GPS Tracker (assuming the lost half isn't separately available).
Either solution will take me to the foot of the right tree. I'll just cuss $200 less with the Trackimo.
Good skies,
GlueckAuf

 

[Bat-mite]

Yes, losing them absolutely sucks.

 

[GlueckAuf]

If the Trackimo-carrying rocket does happen to land in a recoverable location though, finding it is pretty easy. Trackimo relays its GPS-determined location up to once a minute to its central server via the 3G mobile network. Logging in to your account via their web site, or the Trackimo Android (see attached) or iOS app shows the user his location (blue dot), the rocket's location (the rocket icon), on a Google-provided map or satellite view of the terrain in the vicinity of the two. Orient the phone to north, walk in the direction of the rocket until the blue dot overlays the rocket icon, and Bob's your uncle.
Good skies,
GlueckAuf

 

[amirpc]

If the Trackimo-carrying rocket does happen to land in a recoverable location though, finding it is pretty easy. Trackimo relays its GPS-determined location up to once a minute to its central server via the 3G mobile network. Logging inView attachment 367881 to your account via their web site, or the Trackimo Android (see attached) or iOS app shows the user his location (blue dot), the rocket's location (the rocket icon), on a Google-provided map or satellite view of the terrain in the vicinity of the two. Orient the phone to north, walk in the direction of the rocket until the blue dot overlays the rocket icon, and Bob's your uncle.
Good skies,
GlueckAuf

I've been using a $100 Whistle dog collar gps for a while now and it works perfectly: Whistle 3 GPS Pet Tracker & Activity Monitor https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N7MWKWY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Tracks from my phone, I haven't lost one yet.

 

[Rainmaker]

I've been using a $100 Whistle dog collar gps for a while now and it works perfectly: Whistle 3 GPS Pet Tracker & Activity Monitor https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N7MWKWY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Tracks from my phone, I haven't lost one yet.

Those devices might be great, but they come with a monthly subscription cost that should be factored in. It seems l I'll keep a waste to me when I dont get to fly every month.

 

[ksaves2]

Or crash a $50.00 Eggfinder (black friday special) and feel much more comfortable. Kurt

 

[DAllen]

Those devices might be great, but they come with a monthly subscription cost that should be factored in. It seems l I'll keep a waste to me when I dont get to fly every month.

True but a lot of these devices are coming with subscription plans that can be turned off and on without penalty. I get great cell coverage at our field in Three Oaks now so these GPS trackers are looking more and more appealing.

Heck...this Samsung comes with 12 months of free service for $75. With service at $5/month and I only fly about 5-6 months out of the year and I already have several smart devices for receiving the location - how long will it be before I break even with Apogees device? Lets see...

$395 - Apogee
-$75 - Samsung GPS
------
$320 left over = 64 months of service = 5.3 YEARS + 1 year free service

So if I bought the Samsung GPS and just left the subscription service on all year which everyone is wringing their hands about I could theoretically use it for 6.3 years before breaking even with the Apogee set up. In 6.3 years time how likely is it that I will have a CATO, drill the rocket into the ground, land in some body of water (which for me is VERY likely apparently)? With the way tech evolves what is the likelihood that we will have a much better and cheaper options at the end of that time frame?

To me, I think these subscription based GPS trackers are the future for rocket tracking as the monthly subscriptions come down in price. I think demand from the pet market and the paranoid parents/employers market are going to make these devices more common with more and more subscription options as tech improves and more providers get into it.

 

[Wallace]

What will sell this is you put the darn thing in your rocket and walk in the direction of the arrow. Most folks simply want to know where to go and find their rocket. Many many times I have asked questions about one unit or another....how it works what to do and asked for replies in simple, common language. What I receive from vendors and electronics folk is advanced jargon. which leaves me confused. Some folks are into the radio/electronics/receiver/transmitter guru stuff.....that's cool. I simply want an arrow to show me where to go. This is cheaper than Garmin GPS and you need no APP, no HAM, no soldering iron. It does what most people want it to do and that is not a problem with most. Just show me an arrow and let me go get my rocket. I am no less of a rocketry enthusiast if I don't want to study for HAM, and learn electrical engineering to find my rocket. I am saying all this before folks pile on the comments on what it doesn't do... before we define what it does do....it finds rockets....I love it. Yes, its pricey...but have you added up the cost of a typical 4" fiberglass rocket with a 54mm or 75mm reload in it?

I totally concur. I actually started a thread regarding the same exact issue a while back explaining that ALL I want is a simple arrow pointing to my rocket.The only worthwhile response I got was a Garmin dog tracker that will do EXACTLY that. The downside is the tx unit is relatively huge and heavy. This appears to be exactly what I've been looking for. Has anyone seen/bought/tried one yet? I'd like to know that it's truly idiot proof before shelling out that kinda dough.

 

[ksaves2]

I totally concur. I actually started a thread regarding the same exact issue a while back explaining that ALL I want is a simple arrow pointing to my rocket.The only worthwhile response I got was a Garmin dog tracker that will do EXACTLY that. The downside is the tx unit is relatively huge and heavy. This appears to be exactly what I've been looking for. Has anyone seen/bought/tried one yet? I'd like to know that it's truly idiot proof before shelling out that kinda dough.

Yes, Be very careful with the dog tracker as it puts out 1 to 2 watts of Rf that can dork your deployment electronics. Some are more resistant than others. By dorking I mean the altimeter(s) recycle mid flight, blow charges on the pad or
or shutdown entirely. A deployment device with opto-isolation would be more resistant to Rf. Putting the tracker in the nose and the deployment electronics farther down can help. Since some of the earlier dog trackers I saw appeared based upon
the Garmin 60Cs or 60CsX, you can scroll from the map page that shows you and your "rocket" dog to one that gives you an arrow showing where to go plus screens that tell you on the fly how long it's going to take to get to your rocket. You can scroll from screen to screen on the fly. I've done that a lot with the 60 Cs(X) series and APRS beeline trackers.

Oh, another thing, 2 watts Rf on the MURS band (the band some of the dog trackers operate) https://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/Astro_320_DC40_QSM_EN_US.pdf will carry a heck of a long ways at altitude with that amount of Rf power. If one
takes the time to use an optimal tuned transmitter antenna in a long nosecone, I bet it would work dramatically well at 100k feet or more as long as the batteries don't freeze.

Incidentally, the Eggfinder and Missileworks products will give you an arrow if that's all you want. It's not that hard to manually transfer lat/long to a handheld device. You just have to be darned sure both are in the same units.
The best way in my opinion is to set both devices to "Degrees/decimal degrees" and be certain you know how each device handles N, S, E and W. As long as one is prepared in advanced, it's not that big of a deal to do things manually.

Showing up to the field to try it the first time with a nearly totally out of sight flight, is not the way to go. I've witnessed a fellow doing that and was on a wild goose chase. Once I realize what happened, I explained how simple it was to
attach a $16.00 cable from the Garmin 60 CsX to his Kenwood D72a and he could feed his rocked positions direct to the mapping GPS and never have to worry about it! Set the D72A to show the altitude screen and can read off the once every
5 sec altitude readout 'cause you don't need to be aware of the lat/long as you have the live map in your hand! Add your field elevation to your deployment altitude and you know when/where to look to see if you can catch the main deployment visually. And to believe, this was achievable back around '05 or '06 when the Beeline GPS came out along with a Kenwood D7! Only problem was Ham license and the equipment was very pricey back then.

You can do this with the NMEA (EggFinder, Missileworks and others) by piping the strings to the appropriate software too. Not as turnkey as APRS but it can be done. Kurt

 

[Zeus-cat]

Personally, I think more products for rocketeers is better than fewer products. And keep in mind that it was developed specifically for rocketry and made so that it is easy to use. Don't buy it if you don't like the way it works or the price, but complaining about someone bringing a new product to the market seems foolish.

 

[Wallace]

Yes, Be very careful with the dog tracker as it puts out 1 to 2 watts of Rf that can dork your deployment electronics. Some are more resistant than others. By dorking I mean the altimeter(s) recycle mid flight, blow charges on the pad or
or shutdown entirely. A deployment device with opto-isolation would be more resistant to Rf. Putting the tracker in the nose and the deployment electronics farther down can help. Since some of the earlier dog trackers I saw appeared based upon
the Garmin 60Cs or 60CsX, you can scroll from the map page that shows you and your "rocket" dog to one that gives you an arrow showing where to go plus screens that tell you on the fly how long it's going to take to get to your rocket. You can scroll from screen to screen on the fly. I've done that a lot with the 60 Cs(X) series and APRS beeline trackers.

Oh, another thing, 2 watts Rf on the MURS band (the band some of the dog trackers operate) https://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/Astro_320_DC40_QSM_EN_US.pdf will carry a heck of a long ways at altitude with that amount of Rf power. If one
takes the time to use an optimal tuned transmitter antenna in a long nosecone, I bet it would work dramatically well at 100k feet or more as long as the batteries don't freeze.

Incidentally, the Eggfinder and Missileworks products will give you an arrow if that's all you want. It's not that hard to manually transfer lat/long to a handheld device. You just have to be darned sure both are in the same units.
The best way in my opinion is to set both devices to "Degrees/decimal degrees" and be certain you know how each device handles N, S, E and W. As long as one is prepared in advanced, it's not that big of a deal to do things manually.

Showing up to the field to try it the first time with a nearly totally out of sight flight, is not the way to go. I've witnessed a fellow doing that and was on a wild goose chase. Once I realize what happened, I explained how simple it was to
attach a $16.00 cable from the Garmin 60 CsX to his Kenwood D72a and he could feed his rocked positions direct to the mapping GPS and never have to worry about it! Set the D72A to show the altitude screen and can read off the once every
5 sec altitude readout 'cause you don't need to be aware of the lat/long as you have the live map in your hand! Add your field elevation to your deployment altitude and you know when/where to look to see if you can catch the main deployment visually. And to believe, this was achievable back around '05 or '06 when the Beeline GPS came out along with a Kenwood D7! Only problem was Ham license and the equipment was very pricey back then.

You can do this with the NMEA (EggFinder, Missileworks and others) by piping the strings to the appropriate software too. Not as turnkey as APRS but it can be done. Kurt

Outstanding! Everything one should be aware of but might not occur to them at the time all in one well posed post. Thank you Kurt.

 

[Wallace]

Btw: Someone's gotta have real world experience with it by now. I just checked Apogee's site and they're showing "sold out". Either their 1st production run was absurdly small or they're sellin' like the proverbial hotcakes...

 

[Eljay]

Btw: Someone's gotta have real world experience with it by now. I just checked Apogee's site and they're showing "sold out". Either their 1st production run was absurdly small or they're sellin' like the proverbial hotcakes...

I think what they had initially was almost a test batch, with the first "real" run already set up before they were even for sale but not here yet.

 

[Wallace]

I think what they had initially was almost a test batch, with the first "real" run already set up before they were even for sale but not here yet.

That sounds reasonable. Can't really imagine them moving 1000 units in the first week priced @ $400. Now if they were $49.99 that would be a different story...

 

[Phil Hodges]

If the Trackimo-carrying rocket does happen to land in a recoverable location though, finding it is pretty easy. Trackimo relays its GPS-determined location up to once a minute to its central server via the 3G mobile network. Logging inView attachment 367881 to your account via their web site, or the Trackimo Android (see attached) or iOS app shows the user his location (blue dot), the rocket's location (the rocket icon), on a Google-provided map or satellite view of the terrain in the vicinity of the two. Orient the phone to north, walk in the direction of the rocket until the blue dot overlays the rocket icon, and Bob's your uncle.
Good skies,
GlueckAuf

I totally agree about the Trackimo GPS--it has saved me from losing many expensive rockets. It's a great solution for my tracking needs.

Words of caution though, for anyone thinking about buying one:

1) Make sure you buy the 3G version. I found out the cellular signal is carried by AT&T, and they have phased out 2G networks in rural areas (such as Snow Ranch where I launch with LUNAR--which required me to ditch my original 2G device). And compared to 3G, the 2G wasn't necessarily all that reliable anyway.

2) Even if you get 3G network coverage from AT&T at your flying field, the cellular data that your phone needs to track the GPS device in the iOS/Android app may not be available if you have different service on your phone.

In either case, you're screwed. I found this out the hard way when I went to LDRS37. Tripoli Central California's flying field has very poor cell coverage, and while the Trackimo3G appeared to get signal, my iPhone 8 on the Sprint network cut in and out with 1x signal (mostly out). If I were able to get out to TCC with any regularity, I would either have to switch cell phone service, or buy something RF based like the Apogee tracker. So it definitely will save you frustration to check with your club members to see what cellular services work at your launch site before buying a Trackimo.

As a happy side note about the Trackimo3G at LDRS37, my first flight went to 9,010 ft on a K275, and miraculously came down in plain sight not far from the parking area--no GPS necessary. My second flight of a different rocket was a shred on an L1000 (which shouldn't have happened according to the kit maker's advertising), but the Trackimo3G signal came in on my phone just long enough for me to find the mostly intact av-bay / upper airframe with all electronics surviving the shred at 968mph and a fall from nearly 4,000ft. I'm still using that Trackimo device, so they're definitely rugged!

 

[Normzilla]

$182 buys the whole enchilada with a mini transmitter from Eggtimer, getting you to an equivalent sizes and "follow the arrow" functionality. All you add to that are batteries and sleds. Add say 2-6 hours of assembly time to that depending on experience. If you have a phone that you're OK punching coordinates into, you can get down to $120 or so. Adding more mini transmitters runs $75 each.

Anyone have a YouTube video showing its operation?

 

[ghostfather]

I've used a cheap chinese clone pet tracker, similar to the Trackimo. There are several out there, but this was about $30 a couple of years ago. Google them on DealExtreme or AliBaba networks. Mine was based on a lk106 GPS design, but there are probably beter designs/chips by now.
You just insert a SIM card for a telephone network, program it to phone home, as well as a few other settings such as not to go to sleep after a few minutes of non-activity, and launch it.
If I didn't see the rocket or exactly where it landed, or it lands in a corn field, I call the tracker with my phone, and it texts me his GPS coordinates. I can also use a web site if it's set up to send data, but an SMS text works fine for me. Just click the GPS coordinates on my Android phone, and it's in Google Maps, and I can walk out to the rocket, accurate to about 30 ft. Works on an iPhone as well.
You do need cell coverage to use it. Won't work in places like Black Rock.

 

[jqavins]

wait...I dont even know what an iOS device is

An iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch (do they still sell those?). It stands for iPhone Operating System. In other words, with the Featherweight 2 you have to be an Apple user, or at least get a used one that only lives in your range box.

I'd be interested to count the phones at a typical HPR launch. Last I heard, iPhones outsold any other single brand, but were significantly behind Android phones collectively. And I bet Android is more popular still among us rocket nerds, but I have no data to back that hunch up. It seems like Featherweight must really be missing out here.

 

[tfish]

Anyone have a YouTube video showing its operation?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=eggfinder

Tony

 

[gwh]

The 9V battery is optional... it says right on the page:
"Transmitter: Supply Voltage: 3.7-16 VDC"
"Battery for the Transmitter. A 9V battery works fine. The LiPo batteries Apogee sells specifically for dual-deployment are not recommended because they do not have the safety circuit in them. However, LiPo batteries for RC airplanes do work well and are lighter weight than a 9V battery."

READING...its so much easier than arguing back and forth about battery life.

As for the cost, meh. I've been slowly working on an Eggfinder, its fun to learn and I really like the kit, but as the saying goes time is money...

 

[gwh]

That receiver it comes with is just stupid though.
Hey Apogee, its the 1980s calling: they want their hardware back.

"Unlike most tracking systems, the Simple GPS Tracker does not require the use of a computer, cell phone'"

Who doesn't have one of those two things?
Hmmm what would I rather have, a bluetooth module on a small receiver that connects to the phone already in my pocket and can interface with satellite imagery (e.g. google Maps), or a giant, expensive handheld device with a crappy 2 tone screen?

 

[jqavins]

Hmm, which would I rather have: two pieces of equipment requiring extra steps to "pair", perhaps occasionally needing to be paired over again, and providing pretty but unnecessary features, or an all-in-one altogether adequate tool for the job I want to do.

To each his own, but I do not get out the radial arm saw every time that the smaller, lighter, cheaper, and more portable chop saw will do.

Edit: Yes, I understand that the Apogee unit does not have all the advantages I just named for the chop saw. The point is that the tool with the most capabilities isn't always the best choice.