Falcon 54 extreme minimum diameter build

[mperegrinefalcon]

Looks to me like you've made the most sound decision possible given the circumstances. Everybody gets go fever now and then, it's not easily overcome.

You did the right thing.

Thank you for the kind words. This was an ambitious project to do, and seriously pushed my build skill. I have six more of the body tubes, just waiting on a new order of fins to come in. After that, I will have everything I need to start the fincan over again. This time I have the motor to properly space the retainer, and after that I have a better idea of how I can do everything on it. The launch will have to wait until the summer, probably Mile High Mayhem at NCR in 2019. Unless there are launches with the necessary waiver going on sometime in December. I will have to look into it. If you know of a club that is within a 6-8 hour drive of Denver and has a waiver that high, please let me know.

 

[manixFan]

I've flown a MD CF 54mm rocket (Mongoose kit) on a couple of L935s. Well past Mach 2. Fins were held on with the black pro-line epoxy that comes with the kit, nothing more. It was nicely finished but not optimized. I built a second 54mm rocket that beat the old one by 1,500' (but comparing flights on an L265, I did not have a second L935 to fly). My first rocket got to 23,500' at BALLS on the L935 and the new one sims to about 25,000'. I don't understand how you are getting 30,000' in your sims. I would love to get anywhere near that next year at LDRS but I've not been able tweak my sims to get much above 25K'. It would be great if you could share what weight you are flying at so I can plug that into my sim.

Thanks,


Tony

 

[rfjustin]

Same story here... minimalist 54mm bird just flown at Airfest on an L-935 and went 22,968, also over mach 2, also surface mount fins with no tip-to-tip.

 

[mperegrinefalcon]

I've flown a MD CF 54mm rocket (Mongoose kit) on a couple of L935s. Well past Mach 2. Fins were held on with the black pro-line epoxy that comes with the kit, nothing more. It was nicely finished but not optimized. I built a second 54mm rocket that beat the old one by 1,500' (but comparing flights on an L265, I did not have a second L935 to fly). My first rocket got to 23,500' at BALLS on the L935 and the new one sims to about 25,000'. I don't understand how you are getting 30,000' in your sims. I would love to get anywhere near that next year at LDRS but I've not been able tweak my sims to get much above 25K'. It would be great if you could share what weight you are flying at so I can plug that into my sim.

Thanks,


Tony

Same story here... minimalist 54mm bird just flown at Airfest on an L-935 and went 22,968, also over mach 2, also surface mount fins with no tip-to-tip.

I am cheating a little bit and starting at 5400 feet. The 30,000 is AGL. The finished weight of my rocket was 1,300 grams with everything in it except the motor and camera, and the paint is set to polished. I get 31,681 feet. For the next fincan I might just use one layer of carbon to reduce the tail weight.

 

[manixFan]

I am cheating a little bit and starting at 5400 feet. The 30,000 is AGL. The finished weight of my rocket was 1,300 grams with everything in it except the motor and camera, and the paint is set to polished. I get 31,681 feet. For the next fincan I might just use one layer of carbon to reduce the tail weight.

Hmm, my rocket weighs 1165 grams all in and is 60" tall. I have to add about 8 oz. of nose weight to get it to an appropriate CG/CP for Mach+ flight. Even with a ton of tweaking I can't get above 26,000' even starting from 5400' (even if I leave off the nose weight in the sim). Did you mean 30,000 ASL? I just don't see how you are getting to 30,000' when my sims are so much lower with what appears to be a very similar rocket.

So far I have flown 54mm MD on the L265, L640, and L935, with two flights each on the L265 and L935. All have been very close to the OR sims when I plug in local conditions. If there is some way to get a MD 54mm rocket on a L935 to 30,000' in OR, I can't figure out how to do it. I'd happily build another rocket from scratch is there is some secret sauce I need to apply to get to that altitude.


Tony

 

[rharshberger]

really? 1.5oz Ripstop?

I've never done any bagging and I always just kind of assumed whatever went against the actually layup had to be special so it didn't adhere.

That's kinda cool.

Not quite, the raw ripstop wont work very well, it needs to be coated with something like a silicone waterproofing. That being said I have tried other materials and while they will work they are nowhere near as good or easy to use as purpose made peel ply, perforated peel ply or release film. In a pinch other things might work, but best results are gained from the proper material.

 

[FalconRocketry]

Hmm, my rocket weighs 1165 grams all in and is 60" tall. I have to add about 8 oz. of nose weight to get it to an appropriate CG/CP for Mach+ flight. Even with a ton of tweaking I can't get above 26,000' even starting from 5400' (even if I leave off the nose weight in the sim). Did you mean 30,000 ASL? I just don't see how you are getting to 30,000' when my sims are so much lower with what appears to be a very similar rocket.

So far I have flown 54mm MD on the L265, L640, and L935, with two flights each on the L265 and L935. All have been very close to the OR sims when I plug in local conditions. If there is some way to get a MD 54mm rocket on a L935 to 30,000' in OR, I can't figure out how to do it. I'd happily build another rocket from scratch is there is some secret sauce I need to apply to get to that altitude.


Tony

The Falcon 54 without the payload section is only 47.5" long. I am also using the CTI tailcone rear closure, which really helps the altitude. I am having to make everything perfect with this build, otherwise I won't get it to go as high as I want. The kit is going to be in stock shortly, but is available for pre-order now.

I will be continuing on this thread with this account. It's just easier to manage if it is all on one account.

 

[manixFan]

The Falcon 54 without the payload section is only 47.5" long. I am also using the CTI tailcone rear closure, which really helps the altitude. I am having to make everything perfect with this build, otherwise I won't get it to go as high as I want. The kit is going to be in stock shortly, but is available for pre-order now....

All my flights have been with the CTI tail-cone as well but I never thought to include it in my sims. I'll have to see if I can figure out how to do that. In spite of that, they are still very close.


Tony

 

[FalconRocketry]

All my flights have been with the CTI tail-cone as well but I never thought to include it in my sims. I'll have to see if I can figure out how to do that. In spite of that, they are still very close.


Tony

I just added a tailcone to the sim. It is 1.42" long and the end diameter is 1.9"

 

[jlnel]

Id love to hit 30,000 feet...25,000...20,000..well, anything over 1,500 would be fine ;-)

 

[FalconRocketry]

Hey peeps! Good news! I have gotten a CTI K711 and will fly this booster on it.
Why let all that work go to waste, right? Pictures of the build coming later today.

 

[manixFan]

Really interested in what your sim shows vs. actual altitude. Thanks for keeping us posted.


Tony

 

[FalconRocketry]

Really interested in what your sim shows vs. actual altitude. Thanks for keeping us posted.


Tony

Me too! I hope I can launch it. The club I go to has 2 launch sites. The north site has a 25,000 standing waiver, and 35,000 call in waiver. The Atlas site has waiver to 12,000.

There is a slight slight confusion. One calender says it's the North Site and a different one says it's the Atlas site. I have sent an email to club president to find out. I will let you know when I find out.

Also, my Telemetrum has been repaired, so I will be able to fix up the Av-Bay for the flight. I will be using a K711 6g from CTI and that is simming to 24,000 feet and some change. Also just over mach 2. Should be no problem for the fincan to handle, even with a slighly bent fin.

 

[FalconRocketry]

Here are more of the build pictures:

Completed fillets with the Duralco epoxy:


Next up the Vac bagging setup and the epoxy when it arrived:

I didn't take any pictures while I was bagging it because I wanted to focus on what I was doing.

Here is the shots after it has been laminated:



The airframe changed color quite a bit during heating. The epoxy used for it obviously doesn't like the 250 degree heat very much, but it handled it.

Post sanding and filling and waiting to be painted: I filled all the holes in the lamination with JB weld.

You can see the discoloration more here from the heat.

And painted and polished:


I am not too bothered by the paint job. It is just two coats to keep the weight down, then wet sanded to 3000 grit and polished with car wax. It's nothing fancy, but it will just get burned off most likely, so no point giving this rocket an amazing finish.

Hopefully this launch will be at the north site so I can fly this bird.

 

[tfish]

Issue 5:
Fins. Upon an inspection I found that one of the fins was warped slightly. I have no clue how, but it was. On a rocket going over 2,000 mph I do not feel comfortable having a fin warped, even as slightly as this. I do not know where this happened.

Should be no problem for the fincan to handle, even with a slighly bent fin.

You've brought the fin issue up twice now. You must be questioning it's affect on the flight.

So, your not going to fix it and hope the RSO dosen't catch it?

Tony

 

[FalconRocketry]

You've brought the fin issue up twice now. You must be questioning it's affect on the flight.

So, your not going to fix it and hope the RSO dosen't catch it?

Tony

The opposite,
I will show it to the RSO and see if he thinks it's safe to fly. I showed it to Bdale at the launch I went to on the 20th, and he thinks it should be fine to launch. It is very slight, so it shouldn't be too bad. It honestly might just not be sanded as much on one side. I am okay with launching it on the K if it is cleared by the RSO. I'm expecting it to spin a bit, but it seems to be bent along the span axis, not warped. Here are some pictures of the fin:


It is a weird angle, and I have no clue how it happened. Let me know what you people think, especially if you have done projects like this before. I am a little concerned about it, but I want to see what the RSO thinks. I probably won't fly it on the L935, especially if I can't figure out how to get the retainer out. I am really on the fence about it.

-Matthew

 

[FalconRocketry]

The motor vendor is actually out of the K711, so the options are a K750 and a K260. I think I will go for the K260. I have to wait to get home and check the sim.

 

[FalconRocketry]

I will fly it on a K260. This sims to just mach 1.77, and 24,840 feet. Looking forward to seeing how it works!

 

[OverTheTop]

Looks ok to fly from what I can see in the pics.

I would fly it if it were mine .

 

[FalconRocketry]

Looks ok to fly from what I can see in the pics.

I would fly it if it were mine .

Okay. I feel comfortable with the Mach 1.7 of the K260, just not the 760 mph faster of 2.7 for the L935. It still sims to almost 25,000 on the K. I want to build another fincan for the L935.

 

[Steve Shannon]

You can always fly it on a J350 first to see if the fin warpage causes excess spinning.

 

[AlphaHybrids]

Have you seen a rocket called the KestreL? It was build by an NCR flier, John Wilke. John was an exceptional flier and chased the K and L records at NCR ~10 years ago. He had a very good rocket in the KestreL. It would do 27K on a K300 stock. You'll see it on the forums here.

I'd take Steve's advice - toss a J350 in it and see how it performs. You wouldn't want it to cone and come apart.

Typically the November launch is at the North site and not the Atlas site, but confirm with Joe. November can be amazing - cool out, calm winds.

Edward

 

[FalconRocketry]

Have you seen a rocket called the KestreL? It was build by an NCR flier, John Wilke. John was an exceptional flier and chased the K and L records at NCR ~10 years ago. He had a very good rocket in the KestreL. You'll see it on the forums here.

I'd take Steve's advice - toss a J350 in it and see how it performs. You wouldn't want it to cone and come apart.

Typically the November launch is at the North site and not the Atlas site, but confirm with Joe. November can be amazing - cool out, calm winds.

Edward

I will have to look for it. I haven't heard of it, I will have to look for it. Sounds like it would be very educational.
I think that is a great idea. I don't know why I didn't think of it earlier... I have an I180 to test in it. I burned my J350 in Peublo on the 20th. The I180 will put this rocket to 3,932 feet and 169 m/s, so mach .5. should be a good enough test to see if it spins. I will prep the motor tomorrow and work out how to retain it. I have the Aeropack retainer and adapter, so I just need to get some threaded rod for it.

I just confirmed it with Joe and it is at the North Site. Now the weather has to cooperate....

-Matthew

 

[AlphaHybrids]

tfish (Tony) here on the forums put a modified KestreL up to 29k on the K300 motor. Probably also landed it in his back pocket. I haven't looked at winds yet, will probably start early next week.

Edward

 

[FalconRocketry]

tfish (Tony) here on the forums put a modified KestreL up to 29k on the K300 motor. Probably also landed it in his back pocket. I haven't looked at winds yet, will probably start early next week.

Edward

So far we are looking at partly cloudy skies, and winds WSW at 5-10 mph.

 

[AlphaHybrids]

So far we are looking at partly cloudy skies, and winds WSW at 5-10 mph.

For the 4K flight those winds will apply. For your higher flights you need to look at the jet stream at altitude. They can be a hundred miles an hour at 30,000'. You can easily break the waiver cylinder on recovery.

Edward

 

[FalconRocketry]

For the 4K flight those winds will apply. For your higher flights you need to look at the jet stream at altitude. They can be a hundred miles an hour at 30,000'. You can easily break the waiver cylinder on recovery.

Edward

Yep, I will check winds aloft the days leading up to the launch date. Luckily we have (I think) around 10 miles of recovery area around the launch site. The nearest highway is 9 miles away.

-Matthew

 

[AlphaHybrids]

Yep, I will check winds aloft the days leading up to the launch date. Luckily we have (I think) around 10 miles of recovery area around the launch site. The nearest highway is 9 miles away.
-Matthew

Well, we really don't have 10 miles around the site. Per the waiver (and double check with Joe) our cylinder for 20,000' is a radius of 2 nautical miles and for 35,000' is a radius of 5 nautical miles. This means that your rocket MUST land in this cylinder, otherwise we are breaking the waiver.

Additionally, most of the land beyond a 2 mile radius to the north and east is private. You MUST ask permission AND receive it before you go onto private land to look for the rocket. Any complaints to the USFS about our activity could get our land use permit pulled resulting in loss of the launch site.

The club had some growing pains during some high altitude flight activity and now we need to dot all our t's and cross all our i's.

Just an FYI, I've been flying at NCR since ~2003, which is the perspective I'm coming from. The file I have attached is an outdated (circa 2009) of the private parcels around NCR as well as contact information.

Edward

 

[FalconRocketry]

Well, we really don't have 10 miles around the site. Per the waiver (and double check with Joe) our cylinder for 20,000' is a radius of 2 nautical miles and for 35,000' is a radius of 5 nautical miles. This means that your rocket MUST land in this cylinder, otherwise we are breaking the waiver.

Additionally, most of the land beyond a 2 mile radius to the north and east is private. You MUST ask permission AND receive it before you go onto private land to look for the rocket. Any complaints to the USFS about our activity could get our land use permit pulled resulting in loss of the launch site.

The club had some growing pains during some high altitude flight activity and now we need to dot all our t's and cross all our i's.

Just an FYI, I've been flying at NCR since ~2003, which is the perspective I'm coming from.

Edward

Okay, thanks for the information. I perfectly agree with playing by the rules. I love that launch site and would hate to loose it. This is drougless so I shouldn't have too much of an issue with drift, but I will certainly check the winds aloft data beforehand. Hope to see you there if you are going.

-Matthew

 

[FalconRocketry]

So the current forecast is attached. Hopefully I can get a window to fly. There is a backup day on the 4th, so might have to just camp out and hope for the best.

-Matthew