Adhesive tests- E6000 is great for low-power fin attachment

[tpw2000]

This week I tried out a few adhesives for fin placement. While I didn't get individual images of the carnage for the first two (I was busy maintaining a straight face as I gathered the pieces of shattered fins) I have one for the model I used- an Estes Sequoia. The paint jobs were hasty, so pardon that please. However, it turns out that a casual wood glue is pretty much inadequate if you do much as bump the fin, much less launch it. The fins practically stood still as a flying stick maintained marginally enough stability to go straight up and leave them behind. So I decided to move on to something stronger- "Oh CA glue is strong let's try that" forgetting the brittleness. There was a good flight, but landing at an angle snapped a fin right off. Seeing as this model was a mess I got a new one and saw a glue my grandmother recognized- E6000. She said she uses it in loads of crafts and said to try it, so I did. This stuff is great- it's a one part adhesive kind of like CA in strength but also has the flex of rubber cement, and easily sustained a launch and recovery. 9/10 would recommend E6000 for low power fins.

 

[rharshberger]

This week I tried out a few adhesives for fin placement. While I didn't get individual images of the carnage for the first two (I was busy maintaining a straight face as I gathered the pieces of shattered fins) I have one for the model I used- an Estes Sequoia. The paint jobs were hasty, so pardon that please. However, it turns out that a casual wood glue is pretty much inadequate if you do much as bump the fin, much less launch it. The fins practically stood still as a flying stick maintained marginally enough stability to go straight up and leave them behind. So I decided to move on to something stronger- "Oh CA glue is strong let's try that" forgetting the brittleness. There was a good flight, but landing at an angle snapped a fin right off. Seeing as this model was a mess I got a new one and saw a glue my grandmother recognized- E6000. She said she uses it in loads of crafts and said to try it, so I did. This stuff is great- it's a one part adhesive kind of like CA in strength but also has the flex of rubber cement, and easily sustained a launch and recovery. 9/10 would recommend E6000 for low power fins.

More info on the test please. A stock Sequoia should never shed the fins on recommended motors when assembled with wood glue. Proper prep for wood glue is removing the plastic/glassine layer from the bonding area on the airframe, I have rockets over 30 years old built only with wood glue that are still flown regularly (the Alpha in the photo below was built in 1985 as part of a Boy Scouts 75th anniversary jamboree, one fin has been replaced due to breakage but no sheds even on D21). CA not recommended for most rocketry builds with the exception of some manufacturers recommendations. E6000 and other adhesives will work fine too.

How long did the wood glue cure?

Was the double glue joint method used?

Was the glassine removed from the airframe where the fin bonds?

What motor was used?

 

[RKeller]

E6000 is a great adhesive for low power, it stays flexible and bonds very well. it is the absolute best glue for the plastic fins on a Maxi Alpha 3!

 

[tpw2000]

More info on the test please. A stock Sequoia should never shed the fins on recommended motors when assembled with wood glue. Proper prep for wood glue is removing the plastic/glassine layer from the bonding area on the airframe, I have rockets over 30 years old built only with wood glue that are still flown regularly (the Alpha in the photo below was built in 1985 as part of a Boy Scouts 75th anniversary jamboree, one fin has been replaced due to breakage but no sheds even on D21). CA not recommended for most rocketry builds with the exception of some manufacturers recommendations. E6000 and other adhesives will work fine too.

How long did the wood glue cure?

Was the double glue joint method used?

Was the glassine removed from the airframe where the fin bonds?

What motor was used?


View attachment 314426

The glue was cured for 48 hours on all adhesives, a direct bond face-to-face with one strip of glue ~1/8" in diameter the entire length of the fin with no fillets. The tube was not stripped, but it was sanded with 80 grit sand each time. I used a 1/2A3-4T for each test.

 

[dhbarr]

With WG, I would have expected either part of the balsa to break off on the tube or the surface of the tube to delaminate.

 

[MikeyDSlagle]

Yep.
Never had wood glue to fail. I have had to remove one or two misaligned fins and part of the BT always comes with it. Both my Berthas been flying for a while using wood glue without even removing the glassine. Grant it, l don't hammer them with big motors, but still.

 

[bill_s]

I was looking into E6000 for plastic, good to know a bit more about it.

 

[Nytrunner]

Where is this E6000 glue sold? May be worth checking out.

I do find that odd about the Sequoia.

I just flew mine for the 6th time and finally lost 1 fin when the chute didn't deploy and it fell 160' smack down onto asphalt. (carrying an altimeter)
I used the coat, touch, remove, wait a minute, reposition and hold method. Then TB quick and Thick fillets applied.

(Its in the shop now)

 

[tpw2000]

Where is this E6000 glue sold? May be worth checking out.

I do find that odd about the Sequoia.

I just flew mine for the 6th time and finally lost 1 fin when the chute didn't deploy and it fell 160' smack down onto asphalt. (carrying an altimeter)
I used the coat, touch, remove, wait a minute, reposition and hold method. Then TB quick and Thick fillets applied.

(Its in the shop now)
View attachment 314580

I always got the stuff at Hobby Lobby (it's convenient and cheap there)

 

[TangoJuliet]

It surely sounds as if the wood glue wasn't applied properly. I don't even sand off the glassine layer and have NEVER had an issue with bonding. I use the double glue joint method using TiteBond II, and additional glue fillets after the initial setup. I recently purchased a bottle of TB Quick and Thick to use on my fillets.

 

[Micromeister]

I have to agree if ANY wood glue is applied properly the resulting joint is STRONGER the the materials it is bonding. That's ANY Wood Glue: Elmer's White School glue, Elmer's Glue All, Elmer's Yellow Carpenters glue, Tite-Bond II, Tite-Bond-III, Gorilla wood glue, Aleene's White Tacky Glue or Aleen's Clear Gel Tacky Glue.
These Wood Glue joints have been Lab Tested Proving it is the superior glue for bonding Wood to Wood or Wood to paper with or without the glassine removed.

Futher E6000 is a Crafters glue used mainly for Sticking one thing to another where very little movment will be made after application. My Better 2/3rds uses lots on her Ceramic Magnet offerings and other crafty things. At 4+ bucks a tube it's far more expensive then ANY of the Wood glues mentioned earlier and require 48hours to cure with full strength not obtained until 72hours. Using this stuff on Model rocket LPR or MPR fins is just a waste.

OP! If you haven't already learned, I strongly suggest finding a copy of "The Handbook of Model Rocketry" Any addition will do. Find and learn "The Double Glue Joint method". for joining Balsa, Basswood or any wood fin to Cardboard or Phenolic body tubing. I have 45 year old rockets without fillets using this method still flying today without any fin failure other then an occasional broken fin tip on hard landings. Add a simple White glue Fillet and these fin joints are almost indesturctable. Try it You'll like it!

 

[BABAR]

I have to agree if ANY wood glue is applied properly the resulting joint is STRONGER the the materials it is bonding. That's ANY Wood Glue: Elmer's White School glue, Elmer's Glue All, Elmer's Yellow Carpenters glue, Tite-Bond II, Tite-Bond-III, Gorilla wood glue, Aleene's White Tacky Glue or Aleen's Clear Gel Tacky !

John, just a clarification. You include elmers white school glue and Alene's white tacky glue. Are these also considered wood glues? I thought white glues gave you more working time (less likely to seize up, particularly with engine mount and thrust ring placement) and less likely to crimp than wood glues. My rule was always
Paper to paper or cardboard: white glue
Wood to paper or cardboard to wood: wood glue.
Plastic to similar plastic: plastic model cement
Plastic to just about anything else: epoxy
Am I missing something? Thanks.

 

[Micromeister]

John, just a clarification. You include elmers white school glue and Alene's white tacky glue. Are these also considered wood glues? I thought white glues gave you more working time (less likely to seize up, particularly with engine mount and thrust ring placement) and less likely to crimp than wood glues. My rule was always
Paper to paper or cardboard: white glue
Wood to paper or cardboard to wood: wood glue.
Plastic to similar plastic: plastic model cement
Plastic to just about anything else: epoxy
Am I missing something? Thanks.

While Elmer's White School Glue & Aleene's White or Clear Tacky glues are NOT actually considered Wood glues but they are just fine for LPR balsa or basswood to cardboard double glue joints on Motor mounts and fins. Both take a little longer to set the first glue line.

Plastic to plastics As long as they are Styrene, Acrylic or modified acrylic plastics then yes, Liquid Testors Plastic cement is the weakest but OK adhesive for the job. Better for those same types of plastic are MEK, ACETONE, or the very Best "Solvent Welder" would be Methylene Chloride (MC).

While most other plastics can be joined with some Epoxies, there are a few combinations that need a little more attention.
If you like Tech-Tip 017 "Working with Plastics" is an very indepth look at All kinds of plastics and methods for attaching, Joining and sealing others.
You might want to visit www.narhams.org in the library section under Tech-Tips.