The phantom(?) Klima motors

[Winston]

New German Composite Engines coming soon

https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=9680&page=1&pp=10

New Quest/Klima Engines are Closer!
August 17, 2013

https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2013/08/new-questklima-engines-are-closer.html

That article made it sound like they were going to import the current Klima line which only goes up to D total impulse.

So, what are/were these all about? Some of them being Klima motors never released anwhere?

18 mm: A6-X, A10-X, B6-X, C6-X, D7-X, longburner: C3-P, D3-P
24 mm: C12-X, D18-X, E18-X, longburner E7-P
29 mm: E22-X, F22-X

Video of firings. Beautiful shock diamonds and flame color:

https://www.leo.nutz.de/videos/forums/Klima_Motoren_Solaris_2011.mpg

Anyone know what the Klima nozzle material is? It has the shiny look of plastic.

Anyone know some links to any Klima motor patents or any relevant patents that would describe their propellant formula? I can't find any at the patent search engines. The NAR web page on European motors comments about the possible use of a pressed AP/rubber mixture.

https://www.nar.org/contest-flying/fai-spacemodeling/european-motors/

 

[tab28682]

I would have to see much newer news that the links above (three years old) to get any excitement going about Klima motors in the US......

 

[bob jablonski]

With AT owning Quest. Dont expect Quest to bring these motors into the US.
And with the insurance, profit margins, Quantity they can produce, Shipping regulations. Dont expect to see them on our shores soon.

 

[iqsy59]

Maybe one of our European members (Leo?) will chime in, but I had the pleasure of meeting the manufacturer at a launch in Germany last year. I got the impression that he would very much like to import to North America, but we should not expect that to happen anytime soon. It seemed to me that they can barely support demand in Europe where they have higher margins, lower shipping costs, a big market share, a strong dealership network, and unified regulations.

It's too bad, really... their 18mm D9 is really cool!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[rstaff3]

I thought someone recently commented just that - they can only feed their current market.

 

[Winston]

I thought someone recently commented just that - they can only feed their current market.

Yes, I read that. It was by Bob Krech and I considered putting a link to it in my original message. I'm just wondering what is the story behind these produced and tested but apparently never released Klima(?) motors and what is the nozzle and propellant composition of Klima motors, something which might be founds in patents or EU/CE related safety certification documents, but I haven't been able to find any.

A few years ago, I emailed NAR to ask for an article just about foreign motors. They said it was a great idea, but the motor collector who might write it was in Europe competing at the time. I don't recall ever seeing that specialized article about European motors.

 

[rstaff3]

I thought I heard discussion about both why only some were released and the propellant composition. I don't remember anything about the why. I'm pretty sure the propellant is neither BP or APCP. I'm sure this info was on YORF.

It's here too, the propellant is a composite using potassium perchlorate base. https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?69040-Klima-Motors

 

[Winston]

I thought I heard discussion about both why only some were released and the propellant composition. I don't remember anything about the why. I'm pretty sure the propellant is neither BP or APCP. I'm sure this info was on YORF.

The photos I linked to are from a German user on YORF named Leo. Here's here, too, same user name.

 

[rstaff3]

Yeah, he's the fellow.

 

[Leo]

The motors in the picture are prototypes that where shown and fired for the first time in public. After that the 18mm went into production. The highly versatile but very complex motor making machine had some problems in the beginning causing less motor being produced than had been planned. The machine is now running at full production speed. However the 24mm / 29mm motor development had to be halted because of the problems. A more severe reason we don't have any 24mm motors right now is the fact that Quest didn't produce anymore rocket kits and accessories for the last couple of years and left vendors like Klima out to hang dry. These vendors were unable to provide rocket kits for their motors. Klima therefore had to put all resources into making their own rockets and accessories. I helped by developing and testing their new staging method for use with composite motors. These rockets should come out in the summer 2017.
I personally don't expect to see 24mm or 29mm motors in the near future because of other priorities within the company. Also don't expect to see these motors in the States, no matter what you read.
I do not know what type of nozzle material they are using.

 

[ed.brown]

Here is a SDS on the Klima Motors.

View attachment MSDS Klima Motors.pdf

 

[Winston]

A more severe reason we don't have any 24mm motors right now is the fact that Quest didn't produce anymore rocket kits and accessories for the last couple of years and left vendors like Klima out to hang dry. These vendors were unable to provide rocket kits for their motors.

Versus the current owner of Quest who can provide rocket motors for their kits. Now I get it.

Klima therefore had to put all resources into making their own rockets and accessories. I helped by developing and testing their new staging method for use with composite motors.

New composite staging method? That sounds interesting. When and IF you can provide details, especially if it is usable with US composite motors, we'd love to hear the details.

These rockets should come out in the summer 2017. I personally don't expect to see 24mm or 29mm motors in the near future because of other priorities within the company. Also don't expect to see these motors in the States, no matter what you read.

Considering your production limitations, if you could license the motor manufacturing to a US company that makes kits but doesn't make its own composite motors (hmmm...), that would be great, but I have no idea of the economics of that for that US company. I'd guess it wouldn't be sufficiently profitable or they would have done it already. Quest was planning to use motors of your manufacture, so they didn't have the manufacturing equipment and facilities cost.

This situation is a real shame because those motors are actually cheaper even at DM prices than US BP motors while having much more total impulse in the same diameter case with a beautiful flame color and very prominent and clear mach diamonds in the nearly transparent plume. I encourage those who haven't done so to watch the video linked to in my original posting above.

 

[Winston]

Here is a SDS on the Klima Motors.

Thanks! So, its potassium perchlorate and sodium benzoate with unknown binder and in unknown proportions. However, the two listed components are those found in whistle mix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistle_mix

About the whistling phenomenon:

https://yarchive.net/explosives/whistle.html

The burning is believed to be a oscillating series of small explosions on the surface of the composition. A thin layer of the mixture explodes and generates a fast flow of gas out of the tube. The inertia of the gas causes a sudden pressure drop at the surface and the mixture is extinguished. Now the pressure in the tube drops even more, since gas isn't produced any more. As the underpressure turns the flow back into the tube, the hot gases ignite the mixture again causing a new layer of crystals to explode/burn and the cycle starts again.

This phenomenon closely resembles chuffing in a rocket engine. A high exponent of pressure enhances this phenomenon, thus, AP probably will make the whistle burn smoothly rather than oscillate. Potassium perchlorate based mixtures invariably have a high pressure exponent and a high minimal burning pressure - both facts favor the chuffing phenomenon.

Based upon that, perhaps they use some additive to decrease the pressure exponent or, perhaps, the nozzle orifice prevents the oscillatory behavior. I recall that firework whistles are simply casings with whistle composition pressed into the bottom portion of the tubular casing thereby acting in principle somewhat like a pulsejet engine which has no constricting nozzle.

EDIT: Through further investigation, I've learned that whistle mix is apparently fairly friction sensitive which means it would probably be far more of an automated load ramming hazard than BP - your machine would be more likely to go boom.

 

[rstaff3]

I may have missed it (small screen etc) but I wonder if the binder is a liquid or some gum more like whats used by fireworks? Is it known to ne rammed vs poured? Don't know why I care as I will never see one.

 

[Winston]

I may have missed it (small screen etc) but I wonder if the binder is a liquid or some gum more like whats used by fireworks? Is it known to ne rammed vs poured? Don't know why I care as I will never see one.

I don't know and I think the only place I got the idea of the mix being rammed is from the NAR page on European motors which is not referring specifically to Klima motors due to the components they mentioned:

https://www.nar.org/contest-flying/fai-spacemodeling/european-motors/

"Their motors use a pressed-powder propellant that is reported to include ammonium perchlorate and some form of rubber polymer and delivers about twice the specific impulse of black powder."

 

[rstaff3]

I don't know and I think the only place I got the idea of the mix being rammed is from the NAR page on European motors which is not referring specifically to Klima motors due to the components they mentioned:

https://www.nar.org/contest-flying/fai-spacemodeling/european-motors/

"Their motors use a pressed-powder propellant that is reported to include ammonium perchlorate and some form of rubber polymer and delivers about twice the specific impulse of black powder."

Thanks.