How are such launches possible?

[tmazanec1]

I thought the highest power you could go is o.
Here is a video of a Q:
[video=youtube;959E5Oh7gPM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=959E5Oh7gPM[/video]
Am I missing something?

 

[Titan II]

Go to the end....

https://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Documents/Safety Code/SLP - May 2016.pdf

 

[tomsteve]

that is quite an impressive rocket,eh? I'm not the most knowledgable on motors, but I think that "N" class motors are the highest impulse class motor available from companies like aerotech and cessaroni. above that, the motors are considered( I think) experimental or amateur motors- made by individuals or groups of individuals.
to launch, theres guidelines,rules, and laws that have to be followed and met. they aren't something people like myself can just go out and launch. theres some information in these 2 links:

https://www.tripoli.org/Certification
https://www.nar.org/

 

[OverTheTop]

but I think that "N" class motors are the highest impulse class motor available from companies like aerotech and cessaroni

I know CTI have an O3400, of which I have one sitting in my cupboard for flying next year

They also did some O25000 motors (single use) which we used in the 1:1 V2 we flew last year.

 

[rstaff3]

There have been 'R' flights at BALLS. Not many. [video=youtube;Eq5t0nD-nIY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq5t0nD-nIY[/video]

 

[OverTheTop]

There have been 'R' flights at BALLS. Not many.

I am guessing they are research motors, not commercial.

 

[scsager]

Launching a rocket with a motor or motors in excess of 40,960 N-s of total impulse is NOT allowed under the NAR high Power Safety Code. This is also falls outside the limits defined in NFPA 1127.

It IS allowed under the Tripoli Research Rules, and requires review and approval by the TRA Class 3 Committee.

 

[SpaceManMat]

CTI actually make motors for comercial rockets, if you have mega $ then you can get much bigger than that.

 

[jimzcatz]

Stratospheric Dreams, Mike Ward's "S"cato. The largest certified commercial motors are 0. I'm not sure about the Cti P8000. TRA /NAR recognize up to O. Anything else is strictly research.

 

[FredA]

Not to hijack this thread, but how many R's have been attempted at Balls?
I remember USC tried one that CATO'ed about 3 seconds into flight.
Jacobs flew a hybrid that was claimed to be an R that preformed more like an O.....
Any others?
Does anybody know how many have been attempted? How many worked?

 

[dave carver]

I know for a while Wildman has some 8" P's...I really want one of those....

 

[Dwatkins]

You mean like one of these 😆

 

[markkoelsch]

Not to hijack this thread, but how many R's have been attempted at Balls?
I remember USC tried one that CATO'ed about 3 seconds into flight.
Jacobs flew a hybrid that was claimed to be an R that preformed more like an O.....
Any others?
Does anybody know how many have been attempted? How many worked?

The Frank Kosdon/ Paul Robinson R Rocket.

 

[FredA]

The Frank Kosdon/ Paul Robinson R Rocket.

Did it work?
How long ago was this?
How high did it fly?
Did it recover successfully or was it "Kodson Recovery?"

 

[rstaff3]

Not to hijack this thread, but how many R's have been attempted at Balls?
I remember USC tried one that CATO'ed about 3 seconds into flight.
Jacobs flew a hybrid that was claimed to be an R that preformed more like an O.....
Any others?
Does anybody know how many have been attempted? How many worked?

My comment was totally from the peanut gallery. I remember three 'according to the press'. The two hybrids that you probably know more about than I do and the Kosdon one mentioned elsewhere. That appeared in ads, I never saw the report.

 

[rstaff3]

GoFast was an 'S'...do you count it?

 

[NateLowrie]

GoFast was an 'S'...do you count it?

It should be counted as an amateur attempt.

Any rocket with a combined total impulse of P (40,960Ns or greater) is considered a Class III rocket. From the Tripoli website:

2) What is a Class 3 rocket?

As of the December 4, 2008, final ruling on the Requirements of Amateur Rocket Activities, the FAA Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Title 14 Aeronautics and Space, Part 101, Subpart C, 101.22 Definitions state:

“(b) Class 2—High-Power Rocket means an amateur rocket other than a model rocket that is propelled by a motor or motors having a combined total impulse of 40,960 Newton-seconds (9,208 pound-seconds) or less.

(c) Class 3—Advanced High-Power Rocket means an amateur rocket other than a model rocket or high power rocket.”
​

There is a dearth of paperwork and simulations required for Class III rockets. All the appropriate info can be found here: https://www1.tripoli.org/Launches/FAAClass3Requirements/tabid/266/Default.aspx

 

[tfish]

The Frank Kosdon/ Paul Robinson R Rocket.

Did it work?
How long ago was this?
How high did it fly?
Did it recover successfully or was it "Kodson Recovery?"

Depends..."the motor worked", the rocket held together, recovery issue.
8/16/1996
94K (?)
No..but it did have recovery gear in it!

60% R18000

https://rasaero.com/dloads/OuR Project R Rocket.pdf

Interesting read...

Tony

 

[Rocketjunkie]

I tried a P in 1995 - it catoed. In 2001 I static tested it with a few changes. It worked and provided 74,000 N-s
Video of the test [video=youtube;a5d841QLhN4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5d841QLhN4[/video]

 

[dave carver]

View attachment 304263View attachment 304264

You mean like one of these ��

Yeah, that's the one $1500 at one point I believe...bargain...

 

[FredA]

Tony - thanks for the post - indeed an interesting read.
Surprised by what a "pig" that thing was - 200 pounds of propellant and only made about 100k AGL.

Any successful "R's" that you know of?

 

[MClark]

Depends..."the motor worked", the rocket held together, recovery issue.
8/16/1996
94K (?)
No..but it did have recovery gear in it!

60% R18000

https://rasaero.com/dloads/OuR Project R Rocket.pdf

Interesting read...

Tony

I was there! Even in one of the pictures and took a picture in the article.
Robin and I found the landing/impact point.
A cool thing was the video was downlinked, that night in the bar at Bruno's they showed it. Some antelope hunters who were over the mountains said they saw it go up, they were amazed. In the video the "black sky" can be seen.
It was a dog performance wise but was one of the first big high flights. They had to figure everything out for themselves.


M

 

[FredA]

Mark - same question(s) - any "successful" R flights at Balls?
Any guess on how many attempts over the years?

 

[NateLowrie]

I can only remember Jacobs "R" (not really) attempt and it wasn't successful. I wouldn't expect too many R flights because the success on Q flights over the years is still pretty abysmal. There have been plenty of CATOs.

 

[tfish]

It was interesting to plug in the OuR Projects grain configuration into Burn Sim. The motor used text book grain configurations. I happen to have a formula that "fit" the burn profile of the formula they used. 600 psi peak, "typical" 1.8 diameter to length grains, mellow mass flux, and a low throat to port area. One thing....I do not remember reading...was how the motor ends were retained. A 10" motor sure has a lot more sq in of area in it's closures to retain. 6 (?) times as much as a 98mm motor.

Maybe Fred's "pinned motor design" method would be a good option for an R motor?

Tony

 

[MClark]

Mark - same question(s) - any "successful" R flights at Balls?
Any guess on how many attempts over the years?

Not many.
Jeff keeps trying with the hybrid but no 100% successful flights.
There was a rocket with 3 or 4 P's. But I don't recall if it worked.

The Q motors are doing better.

M

 

[FredA]

Maybe Fred's "pinned motor design" method would be a good option for an R motor?

We shall see next Balls. ;-)

Provided the FAA likes our paperwork.......
You didn't think I was asking these questions just for the halibut....

 

[tfish]

Maybe Fred's "pinned motor design" method would be a good option for an R motor?

We shall see next Balls. ;-)

Provided the FAA likes our paperwork.......
You didn't think I was asking these questions just for the halibut....

Fred, I knew your round of questioning had a point. I threw out the bait and see I got a bite!

Good luck you your R project.

Tony

 

[FredA]

Good fishing Tony!
We will see how this thing shakes out.....

 

[RocketFeller]

Good fishing Tony!
We will she how this thing shakes out.....

Well, that is exciting! Are you going to talk about this project at a future OROC meeting? I wouldn't want to miss that one....