Winged rockets

[bigone5500]

WHat should I know or expect when building a rocket with wings?

In other words...the one I am designing has 3 fins and 2 wings located forward of the fins.

 

[TWRackers]

If the wings are forward of the CG (center of gravity), they'll reduce the stability of your rocket around the pitch axis (nose up/down), although they won't affect the yaw stability (nose left/right). Since the wings are usually bigger than the horizontal tail fins, that would be a bad combination, although a longer distance between the center of a fin and the CG increases its effectiveness, even if the fin is smaller. That would help smaller tail fins compensate for the wings.

If your wings are very close to the CG or even behind it, then they won't hurt the pitch stability as much.

You can use some existing models, such as Estes X-15 or Sunward's Desert Fox as examples of rockets with wings. The wings are behind the midpoint of the rocket on both rockets. You aren't going to see many rockets with the wings forward of center, like on private or commercial aircraft.

By the way... looking for a club WHERE?

 

[bigone5500]

Originally posted by TWRackers

By the way... looking for a club WHERE?

I'm in the NW LA area, near Shreveport. The closest thing to me, as I understand, is in winsboro...or somewhere near there...

 

[by basher]

I'm upscaling a Quest Intruder to get the hang of a MP winged rocket. As noted, with all the lumber keeping the CP behind the CG, the challenge is to keep things straight and flat to produce a nice boost. I'm expecting some tail-wagging but hopefully no corkscrew or loop. I've looped many a homebrewed boost-glider perfectly into the ground.

 

[adrian]

My own personal experience with winged rockets says that you should add enough nose weight to put the CG at least as far forward as the leading edge of the wing. Any time I've skimped on the nose weight, I ended up with something which was marginally stable - it took off, tipped over, became stable as the CG moved forward because some of the propellant wasn't there any more, then flew horizontally and crashed. After adding enough nose weight to move the CG where it should be, the rockets flew fine.

 

[te_groen31]

Hello,

Reading all this, I wonder what it would take to make an upscaled
model of Concorde and make it fly, just like the VMX-2 .... ?

Not IF it's possible....I believe it is .... but how should I make a model
like Concorde fly.

Next week a new model will be available on my club's website.
Not a rocket or satellite this time, but an airplane.
Concorde. This model is "an homage to the fastest and most beautiful
commercial airplane ever built", as you will read on top of one of the pages.
It's in scale 1:144, but when printed on A3 instead of A4, the model
will be 1.414 times larger, scale 1:102, approximately.
Just big enough for engines up to 18 mm. Should I launch a model
with such a shape with 1 or 2 engines ? 2 may be too risky, 1 engine means
I will have to cut the tail off, or at least make some big adjustments there.

Biggest question is : will this design in this scale be flight worthy?
The real thing was meant to fly fast and take-off were fast too.
Or it never would come off the ground.....

Does anybody has any experience making any model Concorde
fly ? I don't
like working on something that wasn't able to fly in the first
place ... ;-)

In the attachment you can see a test build of the model. Some parts are
still missing. This model has scale 1:100.

Preview can be seen under "modelbouw" :
https://www.lansbergen.net

If all goes as planned, Monday evening (June 26) my time ( afternoon
in the USA ) the model can be downloaded.

Greetings,

Erik.

p.s. model can be build in all possible configurations. Nose up, down, half down, wheels in or out, etc...
Ofcourse bot versions can be build, Air France and British Airways.

 

[teflonrocketry1]

There are articles about how to simulate glider or airplane like designs at:

https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter115.pdf

https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter116.pdf

https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter117.pdf

https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter124.pdf

Bruce S. Levison, NAR #69055

 

[te_groen31]

Thanks,

I may give it a try, one day.

Monday evening my time, June 26, the model of the Concorde will
be made available. ( (after)noon in the USA )


Erik.

 

[Pem Tech]

Originally posted by bigone5500
WHat should I know or expect when building a rocket with wings?

In other words...the one I am designing has 3 fins and 2 wings located forward of the fins.

First off, you should be aware of how the position and surface area of the wings will effect CG/CP relationship. Then there is physical construction, making sure the wings/fins are properly aligned (not cockeyed). But, in short, rockets with aircraft style wings will fly, and fly quite well, if proper precautions are taken.
See our Space Ark kit as an example....




Pem Tech Space Ark

The RockSim files are also available from our site.
(on request)

 

[falingtrea]

And here are some pic from NARAM of what can go wrong.

Naram Live Monday

Just go partway down.

 

[Tucker5246]

Originally posted by falingtrea
And here are some pic from NARAM of what can go wrong.

Naram Live Monday

Just go partway down.

Very interesting picture of the Snarky. It looks as if no spacer was used and the motor has been pushed up into the motor tube causing the CG to mover forward.

I wonder if the motor flown was a 24MM reload, that would require a spacer.

I flew mine on an E18-4W with a spacer, no problems.

 

[te_groen31]

Hello,

........and I thought I was the only one who had a few
bad days........

Last week I finished my first commercial model. I bought
Estes' "Laser". A small, red rocket, 18 mm tube. Streamer
recovery.
With models like these you have to roll some tape around
the engine to make a tight fit.
I used an A8-3 and with a small, lightweight model like
this one it flew faster, higher and further than expected.

The streamer was WAAAYYYYY to small ( 1 x 6 inch ) but
hey.... I gave it a try. After all, it was a commercial model
and somebody once tested...and approved... this model.

For the second launch I used a B4-4 engine, bought via
internet. A German manufacturer. Since the cardboard
cylinders of these engines are thinner en lighter I expected
a great flight.

And great it was. I launched into the wind and boy....did
this one fly.....
I saw the separation.....saw it decent.....and the the Sun
blinded me....
Where did it land ? Over there....somewhere......

Well..... I walked for an hour.....left to right.....front to back.....
Nothing.
There was a ditch. Or at least, it once used to be. Overgrown
with reed, grass and other big, tall plants..........
I went back the next day. This time I took my binoculairs
with me. Stared over the field for another hour, like a tank
commander looking for another target to destroy.

Finally, I gave up.
Two launches. 10 minutes. 20 euros of primer, paint, glue
and the model itself.....
Gone.
Forever, I guess.

Why does this only happen to me.................................???


Erik.

p.s. It was painted in glossy metallic red ! The streamer was
a bright orange strip of plastic. And STILL I couldn't find it.
This episode made me decide not to build small rockets
anymore.
And from now on I will only use BIG and LONG streamers. ;-)
In bright colors !

 

[shockwaveriderz]

the thing to remember is to keep the CG forward of the Cp suring boost and coast. This can simply be accomplished by using a "Renger" internal parachute pop pod.

You add nose weight to the internal pop pod to move the CG as far forward as required.

With ther CG forward of the CP , the fins will as fins..

the wing still may or maynot produce small amounts of lift during boost and coast(depending on any non zero angle of attack of course).....I would use a 6 ft 1/4" launch lug at a minimum, as the velocity will be higher at guidance separation. Launch it at -2-4 negative.....

the above assumes you want the "winged" rocket to glide back.. if not, just use nose weight and a parachute to bring it back..

terry dean
nar 16158

 

[falingtrea]

Here are some pics of my Quest Intruder upscale I did about 8 years ago. Used a Color copier for the decals. It has a 38mm motor mount but I only flew it on a H97.

 

[adrian]

Originally posted by te_groen31
Why does this only happen to me.................................???


Erik.

p.s. It was painted in glossy metallic red ! The streamer was
a bright orange strip of plastic. And STILL I couldn't find it.
This episode made me decide not to build small rockets
anymore.
And from now on I will only use BIG and LONG streamers. ;-)
In bright colors !

Hah! Been there, done that, wish I had the rocket. It was an Estes Zinger, it was my second kit, it went up on a B6-6 and probably came down. I stopped building small rockets with streamers for quite a while after that, on the theory that once the rocket was back on the ground, a parachute would probably be the most easily visible part.

I do build small rockets now, but they only use 13mm motors. And I try to keep a really good watch on them until they're down, so I have a good line on where they should be. One of them has survived 35 flights.

 

[eizzle]

Originally posted by te_groen31
Hello,

........and I thought I was the only one who had a few
bad days........

Last week I finished my first commercial model. I bought
Estes' "Laser". A small, red rocket, 18 mm tube. Streamer
recovery.
With models like these you have to roll some tape around
the engine to make a tight fit.
I used an A8-3 and with a small, lightweight model like
this one it flew faster, higher and further than expected.

The streamer was WAAAYYYYY to small ( 1 x 6 inch ) but
hey.... I gave it a try. After all, it was a commercial model
and somebody once tested...and approved... this model.

For the second launch I used a B4-4 engine, bought via
internet. A German manufacturer. Since the cardboard
cylinders of these engines are thinner en lighter I expected
a great flight.

And great it was. I launched into the wind and boy....did
this one fly.....
I saw the separation.....saw it decent.....and the the Sun
blinded me....
Where did it land ? Over there....somewhere......

Well..... I walked for an hour.....left to right.....front to back.....
Nothing.
There was a ditch. Or at least, it once used to be. Overgrown
with reed, grass and other big, tall plants..........
I went back the next day. This time I took my binoculairs
with me. Stared over the field for another hour, like a tank
commander looking for another target to destroy.

Finally, I gave up.
Two launches. 10 minutes. 20 euros of primer, paint, glue
and the model itself.....
Gone.
Forever, I guess.

Why does this only happen to me.................................???


Erik.

p.s. It was painted in glossy metallic red ! The streamer was
a bright orange strip of plastic. And STILL I couldn't find it.
This episode made me decide not to build small rockets
anymore.
And from now on I will only use BIG and LONG streamers. ;-)
In bright colors !

The same thing happend to me! That is why I love my big fat rockets now! I mean, the same exact thing. I lost sight of mine after the ejection charge. Oh well, I just feel better knowing I'm not the only one!

 

[by basher]

Originally posted by falingtrea
Here are some pics of my Quest Intruder upscale I did about 8 years ago. Used a Color copier for the decals. It has a 38mm motor mount but I only flew it on a H97.

Excellent!