"Vanishing" Homemade Waterslide Decal - Red Decal on Black Paint

[eugenefl]

Greetings all. I've been excited to clone some of the classics on a budget and came up on my first challenge related to custom homemade waterslide decals. The subject is a BT20 Estes Ninja with red letters printed on clear backing. As you can see in the photo, the red isn't quite thick enough to stand out over the black paint and literally disappears when I transferred it only the model. I do have the option to print to a white backed decal paper, but then I run into the problem of having white background where I don't need it and I'm uninterested in cutting out each letter. So what's the secret? How did Estes make this decal? Do they have the special white-on-clear then red-on-white text printing capability? Plan B is to print to vinyl, but the thickness of the vinyl on a model this small won't look correct. I'm also considering spraying red, applying vinyl, spraying black, then peeling the vinyl leaving behind a painted decal. All of that seems like a lot more work, but if that's what it takes.

So what's the secret to homemade custom decals for printing color onto models with dark backgrounds?

Thanks!

 

[rharshberger]

In this case print the red on a white background paper surrounded by a black box, not perfect but it will work. OR...contact Mark Hayes at Stickershock 23 for red vinyl ones.

 

[neil_w]

In general: home-printed decals do not use opaque ink, so you can't generally clear-backed paper on dark backgrounds. Decals in kits are usually silk-screened with opaque ink, so you can do white-on-black or whatever.

For red-on-black, you might do a bit better with laser. I'm not actually sure how opaque laser-printed decals are.

As Rich says, you can print on white-backed paper with a background that that matches your paint... getting an exact match is difficult, but with black you can usually do pretty well because it's easy to get a close (not perfect) match. That's definitely what I would try, unless you want to get cut vinyl.

If doing black-background with inkjet, be careful of the black ink running at the edges when soaking. I've taken to making them a bit too large, then soaking, then trimming the edges (where the ink has run a bit), then applying the decal.

Good luck!

 

[eugenefl]

In this case print the red on a white background paper surrounded by a black box, not perfect but it will work. OR...contact Mark Hayes at Stickershock 23 for red vinyl ones.

Ok - just did a quick redraw with a black background and will give this a try on white decal paper. The black on black paint should work and match closely enough. As for vinyl, my wife has a vinyl cutter (Cricut) that I need to learn to use. I plan on doing midpower rockets with vinyl or 2.6" diameter or larger builds.

 

[eugenefl]

In general: home-printed decals do not use opaque ink, so you can't generally clear-backed paper on dark backgrounds. Decals in kits are usually silk-screened with opaque ink, so you can do white-on-black or whatever.

I have long forgotten printing techniques/methods. I feel like I used to be a student of this hobby in the early 2000's. Some quick searches reminded me of those ALPS printers (now extinct). Also came across Tango Papa. Sad to see nothing replaced APLS printers; however, companies are still printing/making decals so I'm stumped why the technology hasn't trickled down to consumers.

As Rich says, you can print on white-backed paper with a background that that matches your paint... getting an exact match is difficult, but with black you can usually do pretty well because it's easy to get a close (not perfect) match. That's definitely what I would try, unless you want to get cut vinyl.

Yeah, I think I will go this route. Black print on black spray paint should not be all that discernable unless in really bright sunlight or LED's. These are all nostalgia builds so "close enough" works for me.

If doing black-background with inkjet, be careful of the black ink running at the edges when soaking. I've taken to making them a bit too large, then soaking, then trimming the edges (where the ink has run a bit), then applying the decal.

Good luck!

Oddly enough, I had the same concern regarding trimming into the printed area. Nothing is ever new anymore so I figure someone had run into this problem before where the cut/exposed part of the decal bleeds when soaking. I think I may re-spray them after they're cut and give that a try.

I appreciate the assistance and knowledge.

 

[K'Tesh]

In general: home-printed decals do not use opaque ink, so you can't generally clear-backed paper on dark backgrounds. Decals in kits are usually silk-screened with opaque ink, so you can do white-on-black or whatever.

For red-on-black, you might do a bit better with laser. I'm not actually sure how opaque laser-printed decals are.

As Rich says, you can print on white-backed paper with a background that that matches your paint... getting an exact match is difficult, but with black you can usually do pretty well because it's easy to get a close (not perfect) match. That's definitely what I would try, unless you want to get cut vinyl.

If doing black-background with inkjet, be careful of the black ink running at the edges when soaking. I've taken to making them a bit too large, then soaking, then trimming the edges (where the ink has run a bit), then applying the decal.

Good luck!

Typically the silkscreened decals are done over a base of opaque white ink. I wish it wasn't so hard to find (afford) a printer that does white, but it is what it is.

 

[neil_w]

I think I may re-spray them after they're cut and give that a try.

I feel like I tried that once and it didn't work. But by all means, do your own experiments. I *can* vouch for the trim-after-soaking method, although you have to be careful handling the wet decal (still on the backing paper!!!)

 

[fyrwrxz]

OP- I may have a set in the low power bin. I am on the road right now due home next Monday. You can have it if I can find it.

 

[eugenefl]

OP- I may have a set in the low power bin. I am on the road right now due home next Monday. You can have it if I can find it.

That's a mighty generous offer. I would have to offer some form of recompense as I know those decals have been with your collection for some time. I am going to try out some experiments before throwing in the towel.

 

[eugenefl]

I feel like I tried that once and it didn't work. But by all means, do your own experiments. I *can* vouch for the trim-after-soaking method, although you have to be careful handling the wet decal (still on the backing paper!!!)

Thank you for all of the supportive comments and suggestions.

Some part of me feels heavy usage of cusswords coming on while trying this. LOL...I can forsee the edges bleeding out black ink exposing white decal paper, then having to carefully and with some degree of urgency trim out those parts to get the stable parts onto the model. Yikes! The method sounds doable. I found some other threads where similar discussions of light colored decals (homemade) did not show properly on dark colored base coated models. I may end up searching for the thinnest vinyl available and either using the positive vinyl as a mask for multiple layers of paint thus making the decals "painted on" or just adding layers of clear, then wet sanding and polishing the raised vinyl some to maybe level the clear down.

98.4% of this journey has been about the build and resurrection of long OOP models that I never attained in my youth. Materializing a rocket from parts is downright next to near a spiritual experience.

 

[neil_w]

It’s not that bad. In my experience the ink runs less than 1mm at the edges. Soak, trim, apply. Just make it so that your trimming only requires simple straight cuts.

 

[icyclops]

I have long forgotten printing techniques/methods. I feel like I used to be a student of this hobby in the early 2000's. Some quick searches reminded me of those ALPS printers (now extinct). Also came across Tango Papa. Sad to see nothing replaced APLS printers; however, companies are still printing/making decals so I'm stumped why the technology hasn't trickled down to consumers.



Yeah, I think I will go this route. Black print on black spray paint should not be all that discernable unless in really bright sunlight or LED's. These are all nostalgia builds so "close enough" works for me.



Oddly enough, I had the same concern regarding trimming into the printed area. Nothing is ever new anymore so I figure someone had run into this problem before where the cut/exposed part of the decal bleeds when soaking. I think I may re-spray them after they're cut and give that a try.

I appreciate the assistance and knowledge.

Companies that do a large enough run offset print their decals on decal paper and lay down white first then register black over the top…or run a 4-color black. Then they spot coat the top of the decals with a lacquer based clear. This is why you don’t have to cut them out As the lacquer coat holds the color below together.

 

[eugenefl]

Quick update on this relatively annoying challenge. So I tried 2 new techniques: red w/ black background on white backed decal paper (limited success) and Cricut vinyl. Neither really yielded authentic looking results, but this clone will be a wind tester and flyer.

First off, the detail in the fin decals (throwing stars) have too fine of detail and there are portions of the design that are just to close to one another for the fine point blade to cleanly cut the vinyl. The end result is the vinyl cutter lifted small details off of the backing making the pattern unusable. I tried a brand new blade and experimented with all 3 cut pressure settings. The only part that could be usable is the "Ninja" lettering.

Second, the red/black on white paper method worked, but it's still not as bright on the model. There is some degree of darkening that occurs likely because of how thin the decal paper is, but certainly makes the letters visible as opposed to invisible in my original post. The edges did not bleed off any black, but the finest of edges is discernable and could use some touchup with a runny/liquid black dye of sorts. Many years ago before I experimented with printable waterslide, I used to print to peel-n-stick paper, then coat with clear. It had a similar quality - at a distance the model resembled the original, but upon close inspection the transition lines were discernable.

In all, I will need to either source original kits at high dollar, find original decals, find a vendor that can accurately reproduce waterslide for these smaller models, or tolerate the shortcomings of light colored decals on dark painted models using the print-on-white technique.

I appreciate all of the help, suggestions, and recommendations in this thread!

 

[eugenefl]

Hmm...just had a thought. I wonder if I can layer another 1:1 decal over this one to increase the color. Might cause the underlaying decal to "lift" with other water though.

 

[neil_w]

You can absolutely do multi-layer decals.

 

[eugenefl]

You can absolutely do multi-layer decals.

Hmm....good to know! I suppose this is a low stakes opportunity to experiment.

 

[neil_w]

Needless to say, let the first layer dry before applying the second.

With multi-layering you can do assorted tricks to get color on a dark background... often, cutting a piece of unprinted white paper to act as a bottom layer lets you put a clear decal on top of it, and then you don't have to worry about bleeding edges. It all has to be planned out for each application.

When you're just trying to do text on a black background, though, it's hard to do much. For sure, you could try layering another clear decal over your first, just to intensify the red a bit. But I don't know if that's just going to make it darker, which is not what you want.

As you say, it's a good time to experiment.