Save Rocketry Now - Update

[troj]

There's Still Time!!!

Due to the overwhelming positive manufacturer response to the raffle for
the legal expenses incurred by the sport rocket community, we've decided
to extend the deadline to buy tickets. There are some really tremendous
prize packages being assembled by our raffle team, all due to the
generosity of the sport rocket manufacturing community. To make sure as
many people have opportunities to purchase tickets as possible, we'll be
asking our local clubs to consider making raffle tickets available at
their upcoming launches. We'll also be making special arrangements at
national events this summer to promote the tickets.

However, all good things can't go on forever, so we're setting the new
time limit in a slightly different way. Raffle ticket sales will be cut
off at $40,000. When we have sold that amount, we'll cease selling
raffle tickets, get an announcement back out to all raffle ticket holders,
and conduct the raffle within 10 days. If sales fail to reach the
$40,000 target, then the final date for ticket sales will be at the end of
the NAR National Model Rocket Championships (NARAM), August 5, 2005.

Manufacturers have responded to the challenge of protecting our hobby
with their generous donations. Why not show your support, and perhaps
sweeten your range box or workshop with some really excellent
rocketry merchandise? You can see the great list of donations from 27
generous vendors at:

https://www.saverocketrynow.org/prizes.asp

and you can purchase tickets online with either a credit card or via PayPal
at:

https://www.saverocketrynow.org/entries.asp

And don't forget that every time you buy 5 tickets, we throw in ticket
#6 for free!

Please help support the fight to protect your rights to a safe,
educational and fun hobby.

Mark Bundick, President, National Association of Rocketry
Ken Good, President, Tripoli Rocketry Association

 

[11bravo]

Um, that seems to border on.... crooked.
I'm not sure, but seems that it may also teeter on illegal.
I mean we entered the contest with an expectation to have the drawing held starting AND ending any day now.
Those that did not, did not.
At no place on the website did I read anything about "send us your money and if we decide we got enough we'll have a drawing."
If vendor response is so terrific, what you should do is hold another raffle, not cheat those that entered according to the established rules out of winning this time around.
Gotta be honest with you, 'bout half tempted to demand a refund.

Greg

 

[BobCox]

I'm afraid I have to agree with Greg. Tickets were sold based on an existing prize pool and an announced end date. Extending the end date by 3 months to sell more tickets seems to a violation of most charitable gambling laws.

Then again, this whole raffle would be a violation of the charitable gambling law in my state unless the recipient organization is a 501(c)(3) charity or educational institution, the organization pays a portion of the proceeds to the state, and receives a license from the state.

If new prizes have arrived, they should be used to start the pool for a new raffle with a later end date.

 

[powderburner]

While the points posted above may be valid, I am curious about how much money has been raised (approximately) to this point.
Have we passed the $1,000 point? The $5,000 point? The $20,000 point?

Maybe next time around, you should put some qualifiers on some of the prizes such as: "This item will be raffled if total ticket sales exceeds the $XXXX mark"

 

[BobCox]

Originally posted by powderburner
While the points posted above may be valid, I am curious about how much money has been raised (approximately) to this point. Have we passed the $1,000 point? The $5,000 point? The $20,000 point?

Kevin posted this on RMR last night.

Originally posted by Kevin Trojanowski on rec.models.rockets at 9:06PM on 5/16/2004
Collection to date is $10290, plus at least one pending one I haven't added in yet. I don't know what's in the mail, or what has been submitted via PayPal in the last 12 hours, though.

Sorry if my last post sounded overly harsh. I appreciate the time and effort that Kevin is putting into this raffle, and I'm sure he has the best intentions. Unfortunately, whenever large sums of money are involved, somebody's going to complain about how it is being used.

What's the old saying, "No good deed goes unpunished"? By being a nice guy and volunteering to coordinate this effort, Kevin has opened himself up to all kinds of criticism.

 

[GuyNoir]

Originally posted by 11Bravo
Gotta be honest with you, 'bout half tempted to demand a refund.

Greg

If people don't want to support the legal fight with a raffle donation because of the changes, let Ken Good or I know, and we'll arrange for a refund. It'll take us a bit of time to sort out the mechanics of that, but we'll make it right for folks who can't see their way to stick around to the drawing date.

Look, I can understand why people might be disappointed about the shift, but at the end of the day, the prize pool is MUCH bigger than we expected. I think we should try to respect the support of the manufacturers by make the most effective use of their generosity. That means raising the most money we can to continue the legal battle.

(Aside: Forum members who are not familiar with the legal fight can get the complete history at the NAR's Regulatory And Legislative News Archive at https://www.nar.org/legislative.html)

So try not to get too mad, hopefully because the cause is the right one, but if that doesn't work, just ask for a refund.

 

[Todd Moore]

Kevin should be applauded for organizing this effort indeed.

He did a great job of getting vendors on-board as well as getting the word out for people to buy tickets.

I know he struggled with the whole idea of extension and as you can see, he didn't write the release extending the raffle. I don't believe it was 'his call' at all. - personal opinion only.

I'll also note that it was Kevin’s idea to offer a refund to anyone who felt like they had been shafted by the change to this raffle. I urge you to take them up on this offer if you can't live with the new ending criteria.

People who donated money by buying raffle tickets should be proud of what they did. You guys are doing something good for rocketry and putting your money where your mouth is. I personally thank you for that.

 

[lalligood]

I can understand why some folks are upset. At first I briefly had a similar reaction...but much like Mark & Todd have said, the money is going to an important and worthwhile cause.

So if someone is (still) upset & wants their money back, they were only interested in getting something (& cheaply at that). If you are one of those people, then get your money back & go bid on eBay or something... The point is NOT TO GET BUT TO GIVE. If it all works out (& it sounds like it will), EVERYONE WINS I already feel like a winner because I'm committed to being able to enjoy our hobby without any hassles. If I'm fortunate enough to win a prize, that's just icing on the cake

Just my $0.02.

 

[DynaSoar]

Originally posted by lalligood
I can understand why some folks are upset. At first I briefly had a similar reaction...but much like Mark & Todd have said, the money is going to an important and worthwhile cause.

So if someone is (still) upset & wants their money back, they were only interested in getting something (& cheaply at that). If you are one of those people, then get your money back & go bid on eBay or something... The point is NOT TO GET BUT TO GIVE

Then they could have given at any point, just as has been asked all along. I know I did. I could have had a whole lot of tickets for what I gave with no strings. I'm one of those who'd have been upset at the change, and so I'm glad I gave instead.

I disagree with the decision, but I don't fault Mark and Ken and Kevin for making it; they're trying to do what's best and I'm certain they thought it through hard.

Only time will tell whether this will be counterproductive in the end, making more people less likely to buy tickets next time, or even just give. As with most things, most of the people to whom it will matter won't say anything.

 

[troj]

Originally posted by BobCox
I'm afraid I have to agree with Greg. Tickets were sold based on an existing prize pool and an announced end date.

If you want a refund, please send me a request and it will be given, promptly. Prior to posting Mark & Ken's announcement, I coordinated w/ the person collecting the money, to be ready for just such a request.

Mark & Ken decided an extension was the best route to take; I agreed to publicize that and keep advertising it. Thus the reason the announcement came from them.

Personally, I can go either way on whether or not it's "fair". What I can say is I think it fair to try to generate that $5,000 for advertising, which we're not at yet.

 

[BobCox]

Even though I was one of the first to complain about the deadline change, I am not irritated enough to ask for a refund. Like Lance said, if I just wanted something cheap, I would have spent the money on an eBay auction.

I agree that the money is going to a worthwhile cause, and I thank Kevin for doing what is a mostly thankless job.

 

I thought the original timeline was too short. Despite some folks being dissappointed, I think that extending the raffle was the right thing to do. This effort deserves our support.

 

[11bravo]

I agree, Kudos to those that are making this happen; I just happen to disagree strongly with the descision they made to extend the end of the drawing.
It's just plain ****-poor business practices.
I still feel that if they have gotten such great response and donations from vendors FANTASTIC, but they should use those donations towards a next raffle.
As for those that think that I'm "only interested in getting something (& cheaply at that)", what's your point?
Maybe some can spit out $50 a day towards this and that, I'm very proud of you, go pat yourself on the back.
I however cannot just give $50 out willy-nilly; $50 represents most of a day's take home for me.
I spent a long time trying to decide if I could justify giving that money away, and in the end I decided to knowing that I may very well not receive anything "real" in return; the payback would be helping out.
I very strongly disagree with folks getting receipts for charitable donations to use them as tax-write offs; seems to undermine the whole idea of giving.
This however is a raffle, and prizes are part of raffles.
I haven't decided if I'm going to ask for a refund, but I do know that the chances of participating in a Part 3 are very slim.

Greg

 

[troj]

Originally posted by 11Bravo
I haven't decided if I'm going to ask for a refund

I do understand that some will feel it necessary to go that route, which is why when it was decided to extend, I knew some may request a refund. So, when I saw the direction it was going, I informed the person collecting the money that we may need to do that.

If you choose to request a refund (or just request that we not bill your credit card, as we have not yet billed any), rest assured that it will not be a public event, unless you choose for it to be.

I'm not interested in making anyone feel humiliated because they feel they need to request a refund.

 

[Bill]

Originally posted by 11Bravo
I very strongly disagree with folks getting receipts for charitable donations to use them as tax-write offs; seems to undermine the whole idea of giving.

Why? The availability of a tax deduction often allows the donor to give more than he or she could otherwise afford. In effect, the government is subsidizing donations to the legal fund!


Bill

 

[rstaff3]

I don't see anything wrong with taking a tax deduction. Keep your charge card bill and a print out from Pay-Pal. However, I think this will work only if you loose. If you win you're supposed to deduct the value of the article. At least that's how it works with Girl Scout cookies.

 

[wwattles]

Originally posted by rstaff3
I don't see anything wrong with taking a tax deduction. Keep your charge card bill and a print out from Pay-Pal. However, I think this will work only if you loose. If you win you're supposed to deduct the value of the article. At least that's how it works with Girl Scout cookies.

So if I pay for Girl Scout cookies, but don't get any, I can write it off as a deduction?

WW

 

[rstaff3]

As long as you are prepared to prove this to an auditor I'd think so. However not getting something is hard to prove.

BTW, I am not a tax accountant and will only relate what I believe to be correct. Every year I hear that some organization or another sends the same taxes to multiple accouning firms, and calls in the same questions to different people at the IRS Q&A line...and they find even the 'experts' don't get it right

 

[Ray Dunakin]

Originally posted by 11Bravo

Um, that seems to border on.... crooked.
I'm not sure, but seems that it may also teeter on illegal.
I mean we entered the contest with an expectation to have the drawing held starting AND ending any day now.
Those that did not, did not.
At no place on the website did I read anything about "send us your money and if we decide we got enough we'll have a drawing."
If vendor response is so terrific, what you should do is hold another raffle, not cheat those that entered according to the established rules out of winning this time around.
Gotta be honest with you, 'bout half tempted to demand a refund.

Excuse me, but where is your concern for the good of the hobby???

Sticking to the original cutoff date might make it easier for you to win something but it won't pay the legal bills and it'll make the vendors think twice about donating anything in the future.

The whole point of the raffle is to raise money to save the hobby. Winning something is just a nice possible bonus.

 

[Ray Dunakin]

Originally posted by 11Bravo
I however cannot just give $50 out willy-nilly; $50 represents most of a day's take home for me.

Hence the old saying, Never risk more than you can afford to lose. A raffle's like a slot machine: you pay your money and _maybe_ get something in return. Most of the time you just lose your money. But unlike Vegas, in this case the money you lose goes to a good cause.

This however is a raffle, and prizes are part of raffles.

Prizes are still a part of this raffle.

 

[11bravo]

Originally posted by Ray Dunakin
... and it'll make the vendors think twice about donating anything in the future.

Why would it make vendors think twice about donating in the future?
What do they care? They donated* and prizes are awarded; so what if it's in May or August or December?
However, changing the drawing date AFTER the drawing was supposed to have begun will certainly turn some off to entering in the future.

*Good for them for donating and doing whatever else to help out.

Hence the old saying, Never risk more than you can afford to lose. A raffle's like a slot machine: you pay your money and _maybe_ get something in return. Most of the time you just lose your money. But unlike Vegas, in this case the money you lose goes to a good cause.

Read the next sentance. I explaind that I decided after much consideration that I would buy the tickets and that I may well not win anything, but that "the payback would be helping out".
Of course I understand that I may not win and, in fact, chances are that I won't.
Gambling (and a raffle is in reality gambling) works on the basic idea that we all have an equal chance to lose, but that someone will win.
And we all hope it's us that does win.

Excuse me, but where is your concern for the good of the hobby???

Excuse me, but I did in fact give $50 to the cause.
Many gave more, many gave less.
Why don't you ask those that gave less why they are not as concerned as I?
And further, I don't beleive it's up to you to decide whether I have any concern about the hobby or not.

***************
Look, it's this simple.
I thought long and hard as to whether or not I could make this donation.
For me $50 is a reasonably large sum of money, but enticed by the possibility of winning something cool (and basically anyone that denies this is not being honest) I decided to.
I entered into what is in reality a contract offered by another party.
I gave them money, they promised to hold drawings begining May 15.
At no time, nor in any place did they reserve the right to make changes to the drawing date, based on response, be it positive or negative.
They reneged and I'm not happy about it.
There is nothing more to it.
***************

As for what anyone thinks of me about the whole thing?
I don't care.
Not one whit.
You can walk around feeling superior to me for not worrying about it.
Fine.
Don't trip.

Greg

 

[Bill]

Originally posted by 11Bravo
Why would it make vendors think twice about donating in the future?

Because some of the vendors were hoping to raise more than $15,000 so that there would be some money for advertising. Without more time, that was not going to happen.


Bill

 

[WiK]

Originally posted by Ray Dunakin
Excuse me, but where is your concern for the good of the hobby???

Sticking to the original cutoff date might make it easier for you to win something but it won't pay the legal bills and it'll make the vendors think twice about donating anything in the future.

The whole point of the raffle is to raise money to save the hobby. Winning something is just a nice possible bonus.

How is that any of your business? The date of the drawing was changed, and the organisers gave anyone the option to pull out if they wanted to. If someone wants a refund, that's their personal business.

Completely unnecessary question.

Have a nice day,

Phil

 

[Ray Dunakin]

Originally posted by WiK
How is that any of your business?

It wouldn't be, if it had been handled privately. Posting it to a public forum invites comment. If privacy was desired, the individual could have taken his complaint and/or refund request to the organizers privately, either by email or by Private Message.

The date of the drawing was changed, and the organisers gave anyone the option to pull out if they wanted to. If someone wants a refund, that's their personal business.

I agree -- in principle. But where is the sense in posting something where anyone can comment on it, and then when someone does comment, crying foul?

 

[Ray Dunakin]

Originally posted by Bill
Because some of the vendors were hoping to raise more than $15,000 so that there would be some money for advertising. Without more time, that was not going to happen.

That's one reason, but I was thinking more in terms of "bang for the buck". Say a vendor donates $100 worth of product. If the raffle only draws half the value of the total products, the vendor's just wasted $50. He could have simply sold the product and donated the $100. The reason they donate to a raffle is in hopes of raising more than the total value of the products.

 

[powderburner]

This has happened to me before.
At one of our church fund-raisers I made up some model rocketry sets for auction. They included launchers, ignition systems (even had batteries!), assembled rockets, a couple unassembled kits, an assortment of motors, some handy range gear (tape, steel wool, glue, etc), instructions, and anything else I could think of to turn each set into a 'one stop' setup.
The stuff auctioned for about 1/4 of its value.
I won't do that again.