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Launch Complex 39

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NJRick

Saturn 1b nut
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I hope this is OK to post here...but I had a question regarding Nasa's LC 39and there is a lot of knowledge on this board...I know that pad 39b was used only once during the Apollo program...for Apollo 10....but is there a reason why? After 11 landed, did they switch pad B over to Skylab? Did they make the pad inactive due to budget reasons?

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Rick
 
I know that pad 39b was used only once during the Apollo program...for Apollo 10....but is there a reason why? After 11 landed, did they switch pad B over to Skylab? Did they make the pad inactive due to budget reasons?
I'm no expert, but I think during Apollo it was just a matter of timing; it looks like they preferred to use 39A unless there wasn't enough time to refurb it from the previous launch, which only happened on Apollo 10.

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4204/contents.html -- see Appendix A.

Skylab itself was launched from 39A and the Saturn IB manned missions from 39B; there were modifications to the mobile launcher (the "milkstool") but not to the pad itself AFAIK.

See https://www.savethelut.org/MLDocs/ML_History.html
 
The "pads" weren't converted for Saturn IB.
Originally the Saturn I/IB's launched from over at Space Launch Complex 34, which was there long before the VAB and pads 39A and B. The rockets were stacked on the pad-- the stages were trucked out to the pad on transporters and then lifted upright by cranes and installed on the pad. All the work to complete and check out the rocket was done on the pad, more or less in the open. There were a lot of drawbacks to this method, especially for the HUGE Saturn V, which is why it was designed with the new paradigm of integration and checkout performed inside a massive permanent building and then transport the rocket to the pad via crawler. This required that the rockets be assembled on massive "Main Launch Platforms" (MLP's) that, in the case of the Saturn vehicles, also had a large steel tower with all the requisite vehicle umbilicals and service arms necessary to serve the vehicle. The "pad" is merely a concrete hardstand with the service connections necessary to connect the vehicle with its propellant supply storage tanks, with the firing room, etc. The MLP's were all built with Saturn V in mind, with the towers having the umbilical and service arms at specific locations and heights for that vehicle alone.

Now, when the moon landings were pared back, and the Apollo Applications Skylab space station approved (along with ASTP), it was realized that there would be a lot of benefits to launching the Saturn IB from the existing MLP's and pads at SLC 39, even though they were never designed for that. After looking at the problem, the easiest (and cheapest) was convert the Saturn V MLP's for use by Saturn IB by building a steel tower (a "milkstool") to raise the Saturn IB up the same height as the S-IVB would be at on a Saturn V, enabling the use of the existing white room and umbilicals to the S-IVB and spacecraft, and adding connections for the S-IB first stage. The "pad" itself wasn't changed much if any-- it simply wasn't necessary.

Now, when the shuttle was approved, the original idea was to abandon the KSC Saturn infrastructure and build an entirely new setup to support shuttle, and not even necessarily at KSC. They even looked at building a new shuttle launch center in Matagorda County, Texas, to be called the Spiro T. Agnew Space Center, which would have been about 90 miles west from Johnson Space Center. The shuttles would have flown dogleg trajectories out over the Gulf and dropped their boosters into the Gulf of Mexico on ascent, probably off the west coast of Florida for recovery and return to the launch site. Of course this would have been TREMENDOUSLY expensive to start 'from scratch', so this plan basically didn't last til the ink was dry (much like the Orion's methane SPS engine or the Prometheus nuclear engine). The shuttle program was directed to re-use the existing Saturn infrastructure at KSC's SLC 39, which meant reusing the VAB, MLP's, pads, and crawlers.

The SRB's are extremely heavy (due to having to be moved from the VAB fully fueled, versus the liquid fueled Saturn V that was moved empty) and the Saturn tower was designed and built quite specifically for the Saturn V (and as mentioned modified for Saturn IB) so the tower served no further purpose, and they were scrapped. The MLP's were modified to support the shuttle, with the offset exhaust holes necessary for the twin SRB's and the orbiter. The requirements of integrating the payloads into the shuttle with it standing erect, often fairly quickly before launch drove the design towards the Fixed Service Structure (FSS) built at the pad to support the shuttle's umbilicals and white room, and the Rotating Service Structure (RSS) being rolled into place against/over the orbiter to load the payload bay with whatever was to be carried, and checkout of the payload with the vehicle. The payload bay doors would then be closed and the RSS moved back to its "parking" position for launch.

Now that shuttle is retired, the FSS/RSS towers at 39A and B serve no purpose, and have already been demolished at 39B. In fact the white room from the FSS at 39B just arrived a few weeks ago at JSC to eventually be installed as an exhibit. The paradigm has switched back to a Saturn-like "clean pad" design where the umbilical tower will again be installed on the MLP.

As for specific use or non-use of the pads at KSC, originally SLC 39 was laid out for up to FIVE pads... with 3-4 actually slated to be built. (The remaining pads were to be built north of the existing pads at A and B, which would have been C and D, with "E" reserved for any 'follow on' vehicles that might require larger or stronger pads beyond the 11 million pound thrust the original Saturn pads at 39A and B were designed to handle, and of course being further from the VAB as well. Of course even with Apollo having a "blank check", money was an issue and so pads C and D were deferred, and subsequently never built. Pads A and B were deemed sufficient to handle the anticipated traffic of Saturn V's for the foreseeable future, even for a Mars program had one ever been approved... of course by the time of the first moon landing, the Saturn V program had already been canceled, Saturn IB's were stockpiled and their production halted as well, and later entirely scrapped. The remaining vehicles would be sufficient to fly out the pared back Apollo lunar landings and the follow on AAP/Skylab program, and the final Saturn IB flying ASTP.

Had the shuttle program ever even REMOTELY lived up to the wildly optimistic flight rates made to sell the program, then its quite likely that pads C and D would have been necessary to keep up with the flight rates. (Remember shuttle was ORIGINALLY justified by the low costs and economies of scale capable from "airliner" type operations with high flight rates, approaching 50 flights PER YEAR! Think about it... at that flight rate, the entire 134 flights of the shuttle program, over 30 years, would have flown in ONLY ABOUT THREE YEARS!!! This was a fantasy, but it's one that served everyone's purposes, so they went with it).

Now, supposedly NASA is going to 'adapt' the expensive and very vehicle-specific infrastructure at SLC 39 to support "commercial rockets"... the idea is, anybody who wants to RENT the KSC facilities can launch their rocket from KSC. Of course, this "rent" won't come cheap, and most of the vehicles are designed around specific ground handling and integration "paradigms" that aren't easily "plug-n-play" with other pads or facilities. Each vehicle has specific requirements, different propellants, different data requirements, different support requirements such as electrical, pneumatic, hydraulic, air conditioning, service connections, payload integration, checkout, etc... making this "plug-n-play" is going to be both expensive and difficult. The only way *I* can see it working is to build 'generic' MLP's that can be fitted with "kits" much like the milkstool, to adapt specific vehicles to the MLP and re-route the connections to the necessary points... (for instance, when launching an Atlas the LH2 connections would be sealed off, and the propellant lines re-routed to the proper connections with the vehicle umbilicals themselves, while when launching a Delta, the RP-1 lines would be sealed off and the lines routed on that kit for the proper connection locations to the Delta IV... differing vehicle heights and connection/umbilical/service arm requirements would have to be addressed by either having *all* or most of the different service arms on the umbilical tower on the MLP, or using various ones in combination with kits outfitted for each specific vehicle, perhaps in combinations with "mini-milkstools" or something similar to adapt the vehicle heights to the service tower heights, probably as part of the "kit" adapting the MLP for each specific rocket... Either way, I personally see the whole "21st Century Launch Complex" thing as basically make-work to keep KSC open for the next decade while nothing is flying from there... I don't see any "commercial" companies *choosing* to spend big bucks to modify their equipment to fly from SLC 39 when they have their OWN pads/infrastructure tailored to their specific vehicles just down the road... of course, if the flight rates ever get high enough, yeah, additional capability at 39 would be nice to have... heck with a high enough flightrate, even having a specific MLP for each different type/kind of rocket becomes cost effective, but from everything I see we're a LONG, LONG way from EVER seeing those kinds of flight rates, if at all.

Interesting topic! Later! OL JR :)
 
Mike,
thanks for the sites...there is some good information in there...but I have never coem across just why they stopped using Pad B after Apollo 10 in May 1969....they used the three LUT's though until one was dedicated to the Skylab Saturn 5 and one was modified for the 1b.


Luke,
great discussion...its a shame where we as a country where we find ourselves right now...essentially, there is nothing. I realize that the country has certainly gotten its money's worth out of complex 39...but I would hate to see it go unused like this. I view it as a national asset. But I think you are right, its doesn't make cost sense for the private industry to modify its plans simply to get use out if it..if it doesn't lower the costs of launching, then they aren't going to do it and I don't blame them....
Do you think we are going to build SLS? I was surprised to see NASA roll out a new LUT...but I will be honest...I didn't even know they were building it. Perhaps it was built using funds already allocated from prior years? My first thought was why build a LUT if we don't have a rocket for it? But wehat do I know??

Rick
 
but I have never coem across just why they stopped using Pad B after Apollo 10 in May 1969....
After Apollo 11 the pace of the program slowed and I think they just didn't need to use more than one pad. And they did use 39B for the manned Skylab launches as I noted.
 
Luke,
great discussion...its a shame where we as a country where we find ourselves right now...essentially, there is nothing. I realize that the country has certainly gotten its money's worth out of complex 39...but I would hate to see it go unused like this. I view it as a national asset. But I think you are right, its doesn't make cost sense for the private industry to modify its plans simply to get use out if it..if it doesn't lower the costs of launching, then they aren't going to do it and I don't blame them....
Do you think we are going to build SLS? I was surprised to see NASA roll out a new LUT...but I will be honest...I didn't even know they were building it. Perhaps it was built using funds already allocated from prior years? My first thought was why build a LUT if we don't have a rocket for it? But wehat do I know??

Rick

The LUT they just rolled out is the one they've been building for Ares I.(actually LUT is Launch Umbilical Tower, the old acronym for what the rocket rides on above the crawler to the pad in Saturn jargon, which became known as the MLP Main Launch Platform in the shuttle era). Now that Ares I has been canceled, they've been talking about scrapping it, but of course after spending a hundred million or two on it it hardly makes sense. SO, they're modding it for SLS. That's how they 'cranked one out' so quickly-- work has been being done on it for the past couple years or so. Supposedly more will be built, but I guess we'll see... at the flight rates they're talking about for SLS and exploration missions, I severely doubt launch infrastructure constraints will be the limiting factor.

As for SLS, well, I try to be optimistic, but let's just say I'll believe it when I see it. SLS is very much a political solution... and the one constant in politics is that things change. What might 'make sense' today may not make any sense at all a year, two years, or a half dozen years from now. SLS certainly wouldn't be the first project canceled well on its way to completion. What worries me the most is that only the very vaguest suggestions have been made as to what SLS is actually FOR, what it's actually to DO, other than vague handwaving about "touching an asteroid" in 10-15 years, and "going to Mars" some time beyond that. This isn't a very solid foundation upon which to commit hundreds of millions of dollars and a decade or more of work. Remember Mars missions have been talked about since before the lunar landing, and have been "on the agenda" for the past 30 years, and we're NO CLOSER to a Mars mission today than we were 30 years ago... a "mission to Mars" is always 20-30 years in the future... so open ended a commitment as to be virtually pointless. Unfortunately, my political sense is that SLS is just a political solution to the statement "well, shuttle is retired, so we have to do SOMETHING". Most disturbing is, other than Orion (which can go nowhere and do nothing on its own) there are NO payloads for SLS in the pipeline or on the drawing boards... no firm design reference missions (DRM's) or outlines of what the mission is, how it's to be performed, what equipment is necessary, etc... It's all disturbingly familiar to the "all hat and no cows" "city farmers" that come out, buy a 20 acre 'ranchette', build a new $600,000 brick home and a barn on the place, turn 4-5 longhorns out on the place, buy a new shiney $50,000 diesel dually and a 30 foot aluminum gooseneck cattle trailer, and think they're going to retire in the cattle business... Dreams are a long way from reality!

It's not like we haven't seen this thing before... Constellation, whether you agree with its premise or not, at least described the mission (return to the moon to stay, then develop what's needed for Mars) and outlined how the mission was to be accomplished (the DRM) and the hardware necessary to do it. Even if we had a moon rocket sitting on the pad TODAY, we wouldn't be going to the moon for another decade-- it'll take that long in time and money (to pay for the development) to build the hab and/or lander to actually go back and do anything... and NONE of that stuff is being worked on! Heck it's not even on the RADAR screen! A shiny new SLS gets you nothing if you don't have anything to put on top of it, but it DOES cost you money to keep the capability alive-- it's not like a Chevy plant in the Rust Belt that you can just mothball and send everybody home on furlough til you need it, then call them all back and turn the lights on and start cranking out cars (or rockets). The knowledge and tooling and equipment and skills are VERY specialized and you either have to pay folks to build rockets, or pay folks to polish wrenches til you're ready to build rockets, or you cancel the program and reconstitute it at great expense later on...

I try not to be, but I'm pretty pessimistic about SLS's future... I think it's going to be INCREASINGLY hard to justify, not less... the arguments will go like "we don't have money for Mars missions, so why build a Mars rocket??" and other such things... I think the BEST we can hope for is a "China-style" space program of one launch every second or third year doing something interesting... I certainly don't see anything on the radar that makes me think otherwise.

More later... OL JR :)
 
Cont'd...

I think what we're seeing is the result of a house divided. There are those in NASA who WANT to go to the moon and Mars and asteroids. There are those who don't. There's plenty of infighting as to where to go as well-- some want to return to the moon to learn the hard stuff to go to Mars, some want to go straight to Mars and skip the moon entirely, and the asteroid camp is still another point of view... and there's plenty of blood shed amongst the various supporters of any of these paradigms... NASA's top leadership, which are political appointees, reflect the views of the Administration, which canceled Constellation's planned "Moon, Mars, and Beyond" plans (and replaced them with NOTHING except a bit of vague talk about touching asteroids and maybe going to Mars in 30 years). Remember that for awhile Orion was canceled as well, then grudgingly allowed in "zombie mode" as a Crew Return Vehicle for ISS, before finally getting a makeover and Congressional reprieve as the "MPCV" (multi-passenger crew vehicle). Orion is in the ignoble position of being too expensive for ISS crew transfer duties and not having ANY necessary support hardware for deep space missions... (no landers, so Earth escape stages, no hab modules, no nothing). So what's it for?? SLS is in the same boat-- It has Orion to lift, but no landers, so EDS stages, no habs, no modules... no PAYLOADS. Ya just ain't goin' nowhere without payloads...

Yeah, SLC-39 is a national asset, but we've sunk national assets before (some made sense, some extremely wastefully). Remember Saturn V was a national asset... billions spent to develop it and it was canceled after the first batch of the assembly line... it'd be sorta like Chevy spending millions to design and tool up to build new Corvettes, produce the first 100, and then scrapping all the tooling and imploding the factory... totally senseless. I think SLC-39 will continue in some form or fashion, and hopefully will even get put to some good use. A lot depends on how things unfold.

Back to the house divided thing-- I think the Administration and NASA HQ (well, the top dogs anyway) would like to see it all turned over to "commercial interests", but Congress doesn't want any part of that. Congress likes writing checks for parochial interests in their own Congressional districts-- things to point to for their reelection campaigns. Congress doesn't like letting go of power, especially funding things that they have little/no input on what happens to the money once the check is cashed... I've seen that personally as every Farm Bill since 96 has been touted as "the LAST Farm Bill" which will transition agriculture strictly to a "market driven" approach... thing is, they can't EXERCISE CONTROL over a "market driven approach", so they keep the Farm Bill alive, so that they have a carrot to dangle over everyone's head, which you can have so long as you follow their rules coming from DC, rules engineered to serve their parochial interests (usually big agribiz lobbyists/campaign contributors).

If you look at the long view, it's going to be VERY hard to maintain support for SLS over the long haul, and so it's an uphill battle to keep it. Uphill battles are usually VERY difficult and expensive to win, and require great sacrifice and substantial losses to achieve victory. I don't think Congress is going to be willing to fight those battles or endure those losses or sacrifice long term. SO, if SLS goes the way of Constellation, where does that leave us??

Apparently, with a "commercial spaceflight" paradigm... whether you agree with it or not or think it's a good idea... (I tend to think that it is, but much remains to be seen and proven). So, I see it as a more "likely outcome". It's basically what the Administration and NASA HQ wants to see happen anyway, and it's likely to happen "by default" in the end anyway... so the question then becomes, "how much time and money will be wasted between now and then?" The ball is basically in Congress's court... they're either going to HAVE to commit to SLS and Orion and payloads for it, FOR THE LONG HAUL, or simply piddle away billions and years on 'makework' projects until they simply cannot justify them in any way, shape, or form, and see them canceled and put us right back at square one AGAIN, only that much deeper in the hole and that many years further behind...

I wish they'd PICK A PLAN and STICK TO IT... either go with commercial NOW and forget NASA owned/operated launchers (NASA alone will build/operate deep space capable capsules, landers, and habs, just as it does with exploration rovers and probes like Curiosity, but even NASA has the good sense to just buy a launch on Atlas or Delta for it's probes instead of building/maintaining their own expendable unmanned rocket capability-- manned operations/exploration could follow the same paradigm). Commercial isn't going to build deep-space vehicles for decades (if ever) because there's no other "buyer" for them BUT NASA... there's no economically justifiable mission that could afford them-- even if the moon were made of solid platinum, free for the taking... it costs more to go there and pick it up than it's worth. NASA should focus on habs, landers, and deep space capsules, rovers, and other support equipment, and just contract for launch services as they do with their unmanned probes. BUT, for some reason, Congress wants to see NASA stay in the launch business, designed IN HOUSE and built by contractors at great expense, and then operated by NASA. Congress just doesn't want to PAY FOR IT at the levels necessary to maintain and operate under that paradigm... The decision needs to be made and made NOW, and stuck to... otherwise time will make the decision for them, but it'll be that much more wasteful and expensive in the long run...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Luke,
from what you are saying we lack anyone with a clear vision for NASA. I didn't realize there was such an internal debate with manned space vs unmanned probes...I guess I always felt there should be both but I guess with limited funding the debate gets hot.
Regarding SLS...I think you are right...it sounds like the equivalent of the bridge to now where..except its a rocket. But what you are saying about keeping the design teams together is true....these are not Ford 150's that are rolling off the production line. I recall in one of your earlier posts on another topic regarding the quality of Russian rockets...and that surprised me. I know that they make good equipment, but I didn't realize that they are superior to ours in a number of ways.
Its a shame with the SLS...I would think there are many things we could do that could be tied to gether...I guess $$$ is the problem along with vision. But didn't you post a while back about old NASA plans to do a Venus flyby with the old Saturn and Apollo equipment? I would think that would be viable too...deep space navigation..long term real time test of the new Orion capsule etc...I am not sure if Orion could withstand the rentry speeds...but it is intriguing.
OK....going to head back upstairs and do some more work on My Dr. Zooch Titan....I just glued the SRB's to the main tube. Of course, when I glued the engine cones in last night and the cones this morning I noticed that I had glued one of the engines on on the wrong side of the wrap ( supposed to be a white band at bottom of the SRB) RATS!!! How could I not see that??? I redid the SRB with a back up wrap that I had copied but the black isn't as black as the orginial....oh well...live and learn. Still fun build though....I think your best tip is to be patient..I have to get better at that...but when his kits start to come together I am like damn this is cool!!! and I have to force myself to slow down...each build is fun.
Your tips have always been helpful Luke..I feel like each kit I make my balsa cones get a little bit better....I think I am going to make the Zooch Saturn 5 next...I have already book marked your build on that....I love his kits. Like a kid in the candy store on his website. I would like to try his Mercury Atlas one day....

Rick


ps- I am glad to hear you got some rain down there!!
 
Thanks Rick!

Yes, you're correct. There's plenty of blame to go around. It's not JUST "NASA's fault" (for always picking *THE* most expensive and difficult way to do something-- always looking for the "champaigne mission" on the beer budget that's available) it's also a problem with the way Congress does business and funds (or in most cases DOESN'T fund it *at the necessary levels*). When we throw industry lobbyists, parochial interests, and re-election politics into the mix, well, garbage in, garbage out... There are some fixes that haven't been tried... multi-year funding would give some stability, and quit using NASA as a latter day Works Progress Administration or a tool for corporate welfare to the aerospace sector would be a good start. Thing is, solving the problem would fly in the face of those getting their particular interests served (or making their money) off working the PRESENT system... Everybody talks about *change* but GOOD change is REALLY hard... it involves *selfless* decisions for the greater good... in a system like what ours has grown to be, where everything is focused on "how does this help *me* get re-elected, a multibillion dollar contract, etc..." it's a HUGE uphill battle. Most folks agree there needs to be "both" manned and unmanned exploration-- simple fact is that robotic exploration is absolutely necessary if we're to explore at all-- there are some places that a human being can simply NEVER go and survive... like orbit/surface of Europa (smack in the middle of Jupiter's radiation belts... about like camping out under a nuclear reactor fission pile). Manned exploration of the moon proved not only extremely capable, but also very difficult and extremely expensive. Those who want to rob the unmanned programs blind to the point of uselessness to support exhorbitant or wasteful human programs are eating their seed corn; those who believe canceling all manned spaceflight will result in a windfall of money for unmanned exploration are deluded...

I wouldn't necessarily say the Russian equipment is "better". We are the undisputed world champs when it comes to cutting-edge aerospace technology, no doubt. BUT, that SOMETIMES comes back to bite us in the butt... it's all about how that technology is APPLIED. Our space program was geared to the Space Race, first to get to the moon. Once that was accomplished, it's been adrift ever since. Shuttle was a technological marvel, but it wasn't remotely like what it was "promised" to be, and did NONE of the things it was designed to do (cheap routine access to space). We basically trashed 95% of what we'd built through Apollo and started over with shuttle, and it was a bridge too far. The Russians realized the moon race was lost in 68, more or less, it'd been pretty well over with since Korolev died in 66 but nobody on either side really realized it at the time. The Soviets swung toward a more gradual, phased, incremental program from there, flying a series of gradually improved Salyut stations culminating in Mir, and gradually upgrading their Soyuz booster and spacecraft. Now OUR astronauts are launching on an uprated, gradually improved version of the rocket that Yuri Gagarin rode to space in 1961! While many NASA folks would thumb their noses at the Russians and their "antiquated" Soyuz, compared to the cutting edge brilliance of our Apollo spacecraft, shuttles, and now Orion, there's a LOT to be said for gradual, progressive upgrades and improvements to the existing design... after all, WHO is having to "thumb a ride" off of whom?? The Russians have had a CONTINUOUS orbital manned capability (barring a couple "standdowns" after Soyuz accidents like Kamarov's death on Soyuz 1 or the three cosmonauts that died on Soyuz 11 (IIRC). We've had a series of "gaps", a short manned gap after Gemini but before Apollo 7, then another long one between ASTP in 75 and Shuttle in 81, and now who knows HOW long until a manned US launch capability between shuttle and Orion or commercial crew... plus we've had the standdowns after Apollo 1, Challenger, and Columbia. I find it infinitely amusing that, here in the "capitalist USA" the space program has always been run by the monolithic gov't agency, NASA, and it's part-time partner/rival the USAF, which then dictates what will be built and how to industry contractors, designed by the gov't and overseen and approved by the gov't. In the "communist USSR", the various design bureaus (OKB under Korolev, Chelomei's design bureau, etc.) all came up with COMPETING designs in their particular bureaus and then COMPETED with each other to gain the political support necessary to get the approval of the Soviet Premier and funding from the Central Committee to actually produce the hardware necessary to perform the missions. It's basically completely opposite of what you'd think. Of course, this competition between the different bureaus held the Soviets back during the moon race, and diverted funds and efforts across several different programs instead of the laser-like centralized planning and gov't dictated and run program assigned to different industrial contractors to produce. Let's not forget either that the Soviets/Russians have done basically everything we've done, and even more... they may have chosen a different path or paradigm, but it certainly wasn't for lack of capability or technical expertise... The Soviet Buran shuttle only flew once unmanned, but it landed itself autonomously in SEVERE crosswinds in a pinpoint landing-- a capability the US shuttle NEVER had (it was "politically incorrect" to do so). The Soviets and now Russians have been using automatic rendezvous and docking systems for DECADES (30 years at least!) while the US is just STARTING to develop that technology. The Russian Progress freighter that services ISS, has serviced Mir and the latter Salyut stations DECADES before ISS, all the way back in the 80's... we're JUST catching up with SpaceX's Dragon and OSC's Cygnus resupply craft... (the shuttle filled this role carrying the MPLM's to resupply the station, and the Automated Transfer Vehicle from Europe and HTV from Japan also operate as robot freighters now to ISS-- but the Russians were FIRST.) The SLS design that NASA is so proudly showing is basically the American equivalent of the Energia/Vulkan rocket that launched the Soviet Polyus battlestation (unsuccessfully due to the Polyus failing to insert into orbit), the Buran shuttle, and would have surely launched many Soviet missions had it not been canceled for lack of funding after the Soviet collapse in 1991. There's a LOT about "sustainability" that we NEED to learn from the Russians...

Yes, I posted about the NASA plans for a manned Venus flyby using Apollo equipment. Similar plans existed for Mars. Of course none were ever pursued. If Orion is capable of a lunar reentry, it's capable of a Mars or Venus reentry, for all intents and purposes. The main thing is the delta-V budget (fuel requirements). The bigger your spacecraft, hab, landers, etc. the more fuel it takes to boost it to escape, brake it into orbit at the destination, boost it back out of orbit into a transfer trajectory, and eventually back into the atmosphere. There are ways around this-- use of high energy propellants like LO2/LH2 instead of low energy propellants like hypergolics (used on Apollo). But they bring other problems with them that Apollo's choice of hypergols avoided (like boiloff). Nuclear thermal propulsion is even better, but politically it appears dead on arrival. Doing a flyby mission avoids the need for an expensive lander (development plus production costs) and also simplifies the mission-- no braking into orbit at the destination planet, simply a brief 'swingby' and return to Earth... of course this basically limits the usefulness of such a mission-- we hardly even do unmanned flyby missions anymore due to the limited scientific return for the cost... (Pluto New Horizons is the exception due to high velocities required to get to Pluto and the inability to carry enough fuel to brake into orbit-- plus the hope of an extended mission to the Kuiper Belt).

Keep building those Zoochies... neat, fun stuff!

Later! OL JR :)
 
Complex 39 B was used only once for the following reason. The hypothetical shutdown of engine Number 4 11 seconds after liftoff would have had a track flying over the visitor reviewing stand, the NASA Control Center, The Range Control Center, Port Canaveral, the Bahamas...violating all destruct lines. It would have been destroyed by Range Safety. There is more to this.
I hope this is OK to post here...but I had a question regarding Nasa's LC 39and there is a lot of knowledge on this board...I know that pad 39b was used only once during the Apollo program...for Apollo 10....but is there a reason why? After 11 landed, did they switch pad B over to Skylab? Did they make the pad inactive due to budget reasons?

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Rick
 
Rick, I was the RSO for Apollo 10. A booster chamber anomaly in one of the engines shortly after liftoff caused a study of the hypothetical shutdown of engine number 4 eleven seconds after liftoff. The vehicle would have violated destruct lines and subsequently destroyed. It was decided to discontinue any future launches from 39B.
 
thanks Rogerarias!!! With all the books on Apollo I have read, I never found a mention just why pad B was never used again. You answered the mystery! For some reason, 10 is one of my favorite missions. Probably because the crew was awesome on that mission! I just wish I was old enough to actually watch a Saturn V fly in person. It must have been awesome! As the RSO, were you seated in mission control during the launch or did you have your own facility?


Rick, I was the RSO for Apollo 10. A booster chamber anomaly in one of the engines shortly after liftoff caused a study of the hypothetical shutdown of engine number 4 eleven seconds after liftoff. The vehicle would have violated destruct lines and subsequently destroyed. It was decided to discontinue any future launches from 39B.
 
Rick, I was the RSO for Apollo 10. A booster chamber anomaly in one of the engines shortly after liftoff caused a study of the hypothetical shutdown of engine number 4 eleven seconds after liftoff. The vehicle would have violated destruct lines and subsequently destroyed. It was decided to discontinue any future launches from 39B.

Thanks for your input.

So would an early shutdown in the Number 4 F-1 cause the trajectory to go over a populated area when launched from Pad 39B, and the risk was mitigated by launching from Pad 39A?



Greg
 
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