CHINA STUDY SUMMARY: "On Issues of China Manned Lunar Exploration"

[luke strawwalker]

Here's a neat study I picked up recently... A paper (mostly in Chinese) on their lunar exploration plans. Some pretty cool pix in the study that I'll post here. Please note the similarity between their Lunar lander and our LSAM designs for the Altair lander that we canceled a few years back. Heck looks like they're even thinking of cloning our SLS rocket, even trying to decide between large SRB's and LRB's...
View attachment China Study Summary-On Issues of China Manned Lunar Exploration.txt


Enjoy! Later! OL JR

 

[luke strawwalker]

Here's the last few pics...

Later! OL JR

 

[skybuster]

Here's a neat study I picked up recently... A paper (mostly in Chinese) on their lunar exploration plans. Some pretty cool pix in the study that I'll post here. Please note the similarity between their Lunar lander and our LSAM designs for the Altair lander that we canceled a few years back. Heck looks like they're even thinking of cloning our SLS rocket,

Of course they steal our designs, they can never make anything for themselves. This is one mission that I hope never happens.

 

[luke strawwalker]

This is one mission that I hope never happens.

For us or them?? I wouldn't put money on SLS ever flying-- probably end up canceled just like every other vehicle NASA's tried to do for the last 30 years...

I've got nothing against China... I wish them luck! Glad to see SOMEBODY is serious about actually going into space rather than just serious about spending money on the right contractors to "think" about going into space.

GO TAIKONAUTS!!! OL JR

 

[NJRick]

I agree...I think the Chinese are going to try to do it....not sure just how close they are yet....have they flown their rendesvous mission yet? I can't remember..I thought they did a space walk on the last mission. will be interesting to see how they over come the engineering obstacles.

For us or them?? I wouldn't put money on SLS ever flying-- probably end up canceled just like every other vehicle NASA's tried to do for the last 30 years...

I've got nothing against China... I wish them luck! Glad to see SOMEBODY is serious about actually going into space rather than just serious about spending money on the right contractors to "think" about going into space.

GO TAIKONAUTS!!! OL JR

 

[JStarStar]

They've launched three missions in nine years. Over three years since the last launch.

At the rate they're going they should be on the moon about 2050.

I don't wish them bad luck but I don't see anything to panic about.

 

[spacecadet]

Of course they steal our designs, they can never make anything for themselves. This is one mission that I hope never happens.

Why reinvent the wheel?
As for making stuff, hadn't you noticed? they make most of it. They don't yet design most of it, but that's not what you said.
And as for it not happening, well, the future's been cancelled on your side of the Atlantic- why shouldn't we cheer them on?

 

[hornet driver]

I,m thinkin we're gonna see them do it sooner than later. They have a relatively booming economy, a relatively inexpensive work force. It can be done on 50-60s technology--we did it--And for cryin out loud--they're Chinese, they made runways from rubble. Seem like whatever they put they're minds to, they make happen. Would I like it --No-- but I say go for it and show us up. I'm thinkin we might need a swift kick about now. Enough talk--more grog

 

[modeltrains]

... but I say go for it and show us up. I'm thinkin we might need a swift kick about now.

I find myself agreeing with that.

Enough talk--more grog

And the last 50% of that.

 

[luke strawwalker]

They've launched three missions in nine years. Over three years since the last launch.

At the rate they're going they should be on the moon about 2050.

I don't wish them bad luck but I don't see anything to panic about.

Hehehe... everybody keeps saying this like it's some sort of sleight...

Guess what... IF (and that's a BIG IF) our manned space program ever gets its act together and actually gets anything into space, and goes back to "deep space exploration" ala the plans for Orion and SLS, GUESS WHAT... WE are ONLY going to be flying a mission every TWO TO THREE YEARS! That's right... the SAME schedule as the "silly Chinese" and their silly "one flight every 2-3 years" that seems SO amusing to some folks around here...

Thing is, the Chinese DON'T NEED to fly at the frenetic pace that defined the space race. In fact, had the US and USSR not been in "mortal combat" Cold War style to win the 'space race', then it's unlikely that NEITHER them nor us would have pursued such an expensive, rapid pace of space missions that were the hallmark of Mercury, Vostok, Gemini, Voshkod, Apollo, and the Soyuz programs. The high flight rates were part of the missile race between the US and Soviet Union, and the military aspects of both programs, along with the space race. Even after the "conclusion" of the space race with the wind-down of Apollo and the Soviet N-1 programs, and the switchover to the Soviet Salyut space station program, the US Skylab program, and later the "cooperation" in space of the Apollo/Soyuz Test Project, the "high" (ish) flightrates continued because the infrastructure that had been built to support both space programs were designed around those higher flightrates and due the nature of the military postures between the two countries (political postures aside) required high flight rates for military and intelligence space satellite assets, along with commercial satellite launches. Of course the USSR, in building increasingly larger and more sophisticated space stations, and flying cosmonauts on them for ever longer periods of time, had to have higher flightrates to support that mission, both in crew launch and resupply, as well as periodically replacing the Soyuz return vehicles after their on-orbit lifetime was exhausted, even if the original crews remained for longer duration stays on the space station itself (and later flying back in a newer Soyuz than the one they took off in). The entire shuttle paradigm in the US was predicated on rediculously high flight rates (which of course never materialized due to the realities of the situation, lack of payloads/demand, and the complexity of the shuttle system itself, which is a big part of the reason shuttle NEVER lived up to its expectations or the goals set for it or reason for its existence).

The Chinese, unlike the US/USSR, aren't racing anybody, so they don't NEED high flight rates and the accompanying super-expensive program that requires. Also, unlike the late 50's/early 60's, the "techniques" of spaceflight are well known and understood, so there's no need for a high number of "developmental flights" like what was required during the Mercury program to steadily test and improve the systems and operations and "learn the ropes" of spaceflight, and no "space firsts" to grab like during Vostok and Voskhod... and of course "no race to win". There's also no need for a large number of "learning flights" like those performed under the Gemini program, to test new systems designs like fuel cells, manuevering, "long duration" (two weeks) spaceflight requirements, rendezvous, docking, navigation, EVA, etc... which of course all needed to be DEVELOPED FROM SCRATCH and PERFECTED for Apollo... (which is why the Gemini program existed in the first place). ALL these things have been done for nearly 50 years now-- the Chinese have no need to "reinvent the wheel", especially in some frenetic "race" type high-flightrate program. They need merely develop and test the capability to ensure that they understand what they're doing and that everything works 'as advertised' once before moving on to the 'next thing'.

Look at the "schedules" for SLS launches and Orion deep space missions... it's FAR FAR closer to the schedules the Chinese have been flying than the heady "lunar mission every six months" of the halcyon Apollo days...

At the rate the US program is moving, it'll be probably 2050 before *WE* get back to the moon anyway...

Later! OL JR

 

[NJRick]

Hey Luke...thanks for taking the time and effort to post these studies that you find...they are really interesting...much appreciated! I know it takes effort on your part!

I also agree with you...the Chinese don't have to blaze the trail so to speak..the Russians and us have done that to an extent...not sure how much to trust their media reports (I already don't put much stock in our media....) but there seems to be true national pride over their accomplishments and I respect that.... its a huge, national undertaking to put a man into space. I hope they go for it and I wish them luck! I am interested to see how they will tackle it....

 

[hornet driver]

I agree with Luke and NJ. I think they made the points better than I. The one outstanding observation is their-the Chinese--at least-- perseived national pride. Something we --as a nation--seem to lack these days.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Hey Luke...thanks for taking the time and effort to post these studies that you find...they are really interesting...much appreciated! I know it takes effort on your part!

I also agree with you...the Chinese don't have to blaze the trail so to speak..the Russians and us have done that to an extent...not sure how much to trust their media reports (I already don't put much stock in our media....) but there seems to be true national pride over their accomplishments and I respect that.... its a huge, national undertaking to put a man into space. I hope they go for it and I wish them luck! I am interested to see how they will tackle it....

Thanks! I'm glad someone enjoys them... I try to glean the information that would be of most interest to model rocketeers and space buffs, since I'm one of both those groups myself. The "dry minutea" I leave in the reports themselves (as most of them go up to several hundred pages long!) While it might be interesting to see graphs and graphics of antenna coverage and signal hysteresis and such for range safety and telemetry signals and management flowcharts for some folks who's interests lie in such areas, for the vast majority of us it isn't... much like signals variance in engine controllers on the Saturn V, it's in the "noise" as far as modelers interests and space buffs interest goes, except such things impact on overall systems functionality or driving the design in certain directions, which affects many other things.

I also try to glean all available information in the reports themselves that modelers can use to build flying "future/fantasy scale" rockets from the vehicles themselves, or neat static display models, should they choose, and barring that, at least gain a better understanding of the directions that have been looked at for the space program, or various approaches conceived or even attempted, or unfortunately sometimes "the road not travelled" or the path not chosen to move forward, for good or ill... ALL provides a perspective on 1) how we got where we are now, and 2) more importantly, where we're going... and to a lesser extent 3) where we could have been (arguably) had different choices been made (alternate history is one of my other interests).

More summaries coming-- but probably not til next week...

Later! OL JR

 

[NJRick]

I keep coming back...but a while back you posted some studies done in the 60's that talked about a Venus fly by using Apollo hardware.....I still think that is a neat idea and think it would be a great test for Orion....I have to go back and find it..I am not sure the duration of the mission....but its fascinating to think about whether we could do that.

these areticles are all great stuff....thanks again...and I have to say...you have more knowledge on rockets than anyone I have ever met....you can tell its a passion! (still wish I could find those Titan 1 line drawings you were looking for....no luck)

Thanks! I'm glad someone enjoys them... I try to glean the information that would be of most interest to model rocketeers and space buffs, since I'm one of both those groups myself. The "dry minutea" I leave in the reports themselves (as most of them go up to several hundred pages long!) While it might be interesting to see graphs and graphics of antenna coverage and signal hysteresis and such for range safety and telemetry signals and management flowcharts for some folks who's interests lie in such areas, for the vast majority of us it isn't... much like signals variance in engine controllers on the Saturn V, it's in the "noise" as far as modelers interests and space buffs interest goes, except such things impact on overall systems functionality or driving the design in certain directions, which affects many other things.

I also try to glean all available information in the reports themselves that modelers can use to build flying "future/fantasy scale" rockets from the vehicles themselves, or neat static display models, should they choose, and barring that, at least gain a better understanding of the directions that have been looked at for the space program, or various approaches conceived or even attempted, or unfortunately sometimes "the road not travelled" or the path not chosen to move forward, for good or ill... ALL provides a perspective on 1) how we got where we are now, and 2) more importantly, where we're going... and to a lesser extent 3) where we could have been (arguably) had different choices been made (alternate history is one of my other interests).

More summaries coming-- but probably not til next week...

Later! OL JR

 

[luke strawwalker]

I keep coming back...but a while back you posted some studies done in the 60's that talked about a Venus fly by using Apollo hardware.....I still think that is a neat idea and think it would be a great test for Orion....I have to go back and find it..I am not sure the duration of the mission....but its fascinating to think about whether we could do that.

these areticles are all great stuff....thanks again...and I have to say...you have more knowledge on rockets than anyone I have ever met....you can tell its a passion! (still wish I could find those Titan 1 line drawings you were looking for....no luck)

Thanks Rick...

Yeah, me too (Titan I line drawings). You wouldn't think they'd be THAT hard to fly...

When I was in high school (pre-internet days-- I guess "ARPA-net" was around at that time) I figured out how to derive measurements from low-angle photographs and such-- so long as you know ONE measurement you can get a reasonable estimate of the other measurements, if the photo is good with little perspective/parallax effects which throw everything off...

Still no substitute for "the real thing" in a good dimensioned line drawing...

Later! OL JR

 

[NJRick]

Luke...you are WAY smarter than I will ever be...deriving measurements from pictures...how did you do that??...thinking about high school does bring back memories though....when I was in High School, I was trying to figure out ways to get my dad to let me have the car....being the youngest of 6 kids...my parents had pretty much seen everything...so that made my prospects of getting the car kinda difficult at times...I graduated high school in 1981..and I can remember when my school got brand new desk top computers....I think they were something like 16k in memory....we were amazed. We also had one of the old computers....one of those room size monsters that you had to feed the computer cards into it to program it....technology has changed a bit....still amazing that we made it to the moon with that technology. Have to take your hats off to that generation...they did it with what they had..and they did it spectacularly.

Thanks Rick...

Yeah, me too (Titan I line drawings). You wouldn't think they'd be THAT hard to fly...

When I was in high school (pre-internet days-- I guess "ARPA-net" was around at that time) I figured out how to derive measurements from low-angle photographs and such-- so long as you know ONE measurement you can get a reasonable estimate of the other measurements, if the photo is good with little perspective/parallax effects which throw everything off...

Still no substitute for "the real thing" in a good dimensioned line drawing...

Later! OL JR

 

[[POW]Eagle159]

Maybe this will get the United States doing something in space again, eh?:confused2:

You would have the 2 out of the 3 superpowers flying to space.....

 

[luke strawwalker]

Luke...you are WAY smarter than I will ever be...deriving measurements from pictures...how did you do that??...thinking about high school does bring back memories though....when I was in High School, I was trying to figure out ways to get my dad to let me have the car....being the youngest of 6 kids...my parents had pretty much seen everything...so that made my prospects of getting the car kinda difficult at times...I graduated high school in 1981..and I can remember when my school got brand new desk top computers....I think they were something like 16k in memory....we were amazed. We also had one of the old computers....one of those room size monsters that you had to feed the computer cards into it to program it....technology has changed a bit....still amazing that we made it to the moon with that technology. Have to take your hats off to that generation...they did it with what they had..and they did it spectacularly.

Don't sell yourself short... I'm just the head of the "useless information" department... LOL Meh... I'm a nerd and proud of it!

My teachers used to ride my case all the time about applying myself. I was a farm boy, born and bred, and it's all I ever really wanted out of life. I coasted through school-- school was what I did when I didn't have field work to do (my ag teacher used to laughingly say he knew when it was dry enough to work in the field, when me and one other kid missed school on the same day!) I made passing grades without trying; I never took notes or other crap, just half-listened and could pass the test with a 70-80 or so, sometimes a 90. I did what homework I could in school during lunch or on the bus and blew off the rest. I was SO bored in high school that I worked in the library, did drafting, and was an ag nerd in FFA. I read every science and technology book that I could lay my hands on, about everything that interested me, from electronics to hydrogen bombs. I used to doodle H-bomb designs during class. I was actually a pretty good sketch artist back then... I even designed a turbine-engine (jet) powered tractor in ag one time-- got laughed at pretty good for that one! (Of course at the time I didn't know that Allis Chalmers and International Harvestor had experimented with gas-turbine powered tractors a decade before! HA HA laughs on the morons I went to school with now! LOL) Anyway, my teachers were all over me to go to college and "apply myself" and I was like "I don't care about that stuff-- I'm a farmer... Besides, what would I do-- invent some new kind of super-bomb that would kill millions of people more quickly and efficiently?? Why bother!" I graduated in '89, 47 out of 103, so nothing special. Won a diesel scholarship as a junior in high school by winning the Texas State Tractor Mechanics Contest and then went to UTI in Houston for diesel technician training in late 89-early 91, with a couple pauses to put in a crop and get it back out again. No jobs in mid-91 due to Bush I's "it's the economy, stupid" recession and all the vets coming home from Gulf War 1, so I stuck with farming. Drought wiped everything out in 96 so I went to the police academy that year, got my Texas Peace Officer's license in May 97, a week after I put in the next crop. Farmed and tried to get on as a reservist to keep my license, couldn't get a spot until after my license was up, so I just kept farming. Drove a schoolbus the last 9 years until I got canned last year-- apparently it's okay if kids get maimed for life in a bus wreck, but just DON'T yell at them to sit down so they stay safe! The new boss turned it into a chickens#!t operation anyway and made it miserable to work there, so I don't care... SO, I'm pretty much doing what I've always done-- gettin' by and reading to alleviate the boredom...

I remember dinosaur computers... here in Texas, long before he ran for President, we had the billionaire H. Ross Perot deciding (and getting the state legislature to go along with it) that every schoolkid in Texas needed "computer literacy" training in the early 80's and on... when I was in junior high, we had those STUPID MS-DOS computers that you had to program with "10, 20, 30, 40" instruction lines to do ANYTHING with them... what a COMPLETE waste of time... I HATED it! I was always like, "who cares?? By the time you program this crap box to do the stuff and debug it you could have done it yourself with a calculator and been done!" Never had much use for computers. When I was in high school, in one of my favorite classes, which I aced, Mechanical Drafting and then Architectural Drafting, (despite not having the "prerequisite math classes" to be in the class-- I HATED math and never took anything over Algebra I, and should have been in Geometry to take drafting 1 and Trig for drafting 2). I could knock out a drawing we were given a week to do in about 2 hours and then I got to play on our new computers... these were "top of the line" for about 85 I guess-- the Junior College two towns over revamped their college drafting courses with some new fangled thing called "Auto-CAD" and we got their leftovers... you had to remember all the commands like an MS-DOS machine and type them in by hand-- "Line" for line, then it would prompt you "from point" and "to point"... stuff like that... it was the first computer I ever saw that used a mouse (to delineate the start and end points on the screen). It was fun to play with, but not much use in my eyes-- I could type in commands FAR faster than it could digest them! SO, you sit around waiting on the computer to whir and creak and decide to pop up the box asking you "from where" and "to where"... The thing was SO old it used those 5.5 inch floppy disks... remember those?? After I graduated my mom and I actually went partners and bought a new 8086 machine running a new thing called WINDOWS... FINALLY something that actually made a computer worth having! It had 512kb of RAM, ran programs off 5.5 inch floppies, and ran at the BLINDINGLY FAST clock speed of 8 MHz! No hard drive at all! I mostly used it for playing "F19 Stealth Fighter" to all hours of the night... Later my folks upgraded computers and got something called the Internet. Mom became addicted to ICQ and I discovered something called computer dating. Met my wife that way after a few years, actually!

Later! OL JR