A (not so) funny thing happened on the way to Oklahoma

[ClayD]

These churches may have had things worked out perfectly if this border issue had not got in the way. They may have known exactly how to collect, process, transport, sort, store and distribute everything efficiently. I wouldn't want to say they are doing it "wrong."

However, in almost all disasters there are anecdotes of well-intentioned aid being wasted because it was not appropriate for the situation. Often it is perishable food that spoils due to lack of refrigeration or inefficient distribution. Sometimes it's mountains of used clothes that are not needed or cannot be stored, sorted and distributed. Generally, experienced relief organizations don't have those issues. They can turn a cash donation into real relief very efficiently.

Its better to have an not need than to need and not have.
It's a very poor arguement either way. However, tell an OKIE that fema, or some "organization" will help better than the church down the road, and it is a quick way to get them fuming mad. I would take a few steps back before vocalizing that....

I drank countless bottles of water and ate more than one (add-hoc) volunteer lunch. Never did i question its origin, and often didnt know the name of the person handing it to me.

The simple phrase "fallen through the cracks" happens because someone (namely government an large organizations) take on more than they can, and admit that this "fallen through the craks" happens. Look at katrina.
Churches, and local groups putting feet to pavement, are the catch all, and you should never discourage that participation... My old clothes can be thrown away if not needed, but I wont think twice to give them to a church. (who give all the time, not just in disasters.)

For personal reasons, I didn't take a camera or anything else to the site. But i can tell you, i cannot count the number of small groups that filled the gaps and "got $__t done" while the big guys were turning people away. I saw hundreds of churches bring trailerloads of support, and hands and feet that came with it.

The government, redcross, and others will tell you . money is the way to help and this other stuff is ineffecient. but, ask anyone that went through japan, tailand, katrina, i am just going to stop there... if it is not wanted.... you wont hear a "no." unless its the government or big organization who say the people on the ground are "in the way".

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Its better to have an not need than to need and not have.
It's a very poor arguement either way. However, tell an OKIE that fema, or some "organization" will help better than the church down the road, and it is a quick way to get them fuming mad. I would take a few steps back before vocalizing that....

I drank countless bottles of water and ate more than one (add-hoc) volunteer lunch. Never did i question its origin, and often didnt know the name of the person handing it to me.

The simple phrase "fallen through the cracks" happens because someone (namely government an large organizations) take on more than they can, and admit that this "fallen through the craks" happens. Look at katrina.
Churches, and local groups putting feet to pavement, are the catch all, and you should never discourage that participation... My old clothes can be thrown away if not needed, but I wont think twice to give them to a church. (who give all the time, not just in disasters.)

For personal reasons, I didn't take a camera or anything else to the site. But i can tell you, i cannot count the number of small groups that filled the gaps and "got $__t done" while the big guys were turning people away. I saw hundreds of churches bring trailerloads of support, and hands and feet that came with it.

The government, redcross, and others will tell you . money is the way to help and this other stuff is ineffecient. but, ask anyone that went through japan, tailand, katrina, i am just going to stop there... if it is not wanted.... you wont hear a "no." unless its the government or big organization who say the people on the ground are "in the way".

I think maybe you are missing my point or I didn't make it the right way. I'm not saying volunteers on the ground and local organizations are not the most important elements of any relief effort. Most of the help will come from within the community for sure, and that is irreplaceable. I don't disagree with that. I'm talking about outside help from people who want to help but aren't going to be on the ground onsite. Does it make more sense for me to give $100 to the Red Cross, or for me to ship $100 worth of miscellaneous canned food, bottled water, diapers, old clothes etc. to an Oklahoma City church? Even if you take the Red Cross out of it, would that local church do more good with a cash donation or a box of goodies of equal value? I think if you are outside of the area, or outside the country, and you want to help with a disaster, you are going to do more good by funding an organized effort than you are by shipping goods to the disaster site.

 

[shrox]

This is probably why it is being done. With Progressives all aid MUST come from the STATE.
Discouraging private donations and aid is instrumental to the above agenda.

I doubt that. It's paranoia, plain and simple that prevents these items from moving on to their destination.

 

[krusty]

I think maybe you are missing my point or I didn't make it the right way. I'm not saying volunteers on the ground and local organizations are not the most important elements of any relief effort. Most of the help will come from within the community for sure, and that is irreplaceable. I don't disagree with that. I'm talking about outside help from people who want to help but aren't going to be on the ground onsite. Does it make more sense for me to give $100 to the Red Cross, or for me to ship $100 worth of miscellaneous canned food, bottled water, diapers, old clothes etc. to an Oklahoma City church? Even if you take the Red Cross out of it, would that local church do more good with a cash donation or a box of goodies of equal value? I think if you are outside of the area, or outside the country, and you want to help with a disaster, you are going to do more good by funding an organized effort than you are by shipping goods to the disaster site.

Victoria (Australia) is one of the most bushfire prone areas on the planet and year after year fire burns through countless homes.

Cash donations really are a good way to help - the Red Cross here will provide gift vouchers to people, so they can go to K-Mart or similar and purchase clothes etc.

After any major fire, banks will open donation accounts so anyone can go to a branch and simply deposit money into the fund - no matter where in Australia you are.

That said, clothing donations to the local churches will also help - so don't go throwing them away!!

The same must be true with situations like Oklahoma etc.

At the end, I really think it's about doing something - to make difference.

This is definitely a stupid bureaucratic fuster cluck. I'd be surprised if the attention didn't get things moving.

Generally if you want to send aid to a disaster area, the best way to do it is to donate money, not send food, supplies or clothes. Donate to a reputable and experienced relief organization instead. Shipping a truckload of perishable food from Canada to Oklahoma, shows a great generosity and spirit of kindness, but from a logistics point of view, it's not the most effective way to help.

I've just saved "fuster cluck" for a future rocket name (Yeah, I have a spread sheet where I keep things that I can use for names....)

Krusty

 

[ClayD]

Victoria (Australia) is one of the most bushfire prone areas on the planet and year after year fire burns through countless homes.

Cash donations really are a good way to help - the Red Cross here will provide gift vouchers to people, so they can go to K-Mart or similar and purchase clothes etc.

After any major fire, banks will open donation accounts so anyone can go to a branch and simply deposit money into the fund - no matter where in Australia you are.

That said, clothing donations to the local churches will also help - so don't go throwing them away!!

The same must be true with situations like Oklahoma etc.

At the end, I really think it's about doing something - to make difference.



I've just saved "fuster cluck" for a future rocket name (Yeah, I have a spread sheet where I keep things that I can use for names....)

Krusty

Churches in the US can, and do exceed the reach of the red cross in terms of organization, mobilization and efficiency of relief.

It is an underlying motive in the US to promote the Red cross, which is politicly aligned doctrine, and Fema who recieves tax funding. The people are told to rely on these groups mainly... they highlight big churches, but its kindof muffled at the end of a long sentence type thing...

In moore, i didn't see much red cross, i saw 100's of churches, and I would have bet 1000,000.00 i saw Kari Byron talking to some troops... but no camera ? so i just figured it was a mirrage, or flash backs from an LDRS.


hope to see ya at thunda-down unda?

 

[krusty]

Churches in the US can, and do exceed the reach of the red cross in terms of organization, mobilization and efficiency of relief.

It is an underlying motive in the US to promote the Red cross, which is politicly aligned doctrine, and Fema who recieves tax funding. The people are told to rely on these groups mainly... they highlight big churches, but its kindof muffled at the end of a long sentence type thing...

In moore, i didn't see much red cross, i saw 100's of churches, and I would have bet 1000,000.00 i saw Kari Byron talking to some troops... but no camera ? so i just figured it was a mirrage, or flash backs from an LDRS.


hope to see ya at thunda-down unda?

I wonder, too, if Church groups and the Red Cross work differently here as the churches just don't seem to be involved - or I just don't see them.

And yes, I'll be at thunda !! Wouldn't miss that for anything!!

Krusty

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Victoria (Australia) is one of the most bushfire prone areas on the planet and year after year fire burns through countless homes.

Cash donations really are a good way to help - the Red Cross here will provide gift vouchers to people, so they can go to K-Mart or similar and purchase clothes etc.

After any major fire, banks will open donation accounts so anyone can go to a branch and simply deposit money into the fund - no matter where in Australia you are.

That said, clothing donations to the local churches will also help - so don't go throwing them away!!

The same must be true with situations like Oklahoma etc.

At the end, I really think it's about doing something - to make difference.



I've just saved "fuster cluck" for a future rocket name (Yeah, I have a spread sheet where I keep things that I can use for names....)

Krusty

LOL! I think "Fuster Cluck" will make an excellent name for a rocket! It'll need a cluster motor, and possibly a chicken head....

California is wildfire country too. My wife's home, everything in it, and her car were destroyed by a major wildfire fire more than 20 years ago, well before we met. It's pretty traumatic to suddenly own absolutely nothing, not even a toothbrush. She said she was amazed by the help she received from everyone. Family, friends and coworkers stepped forward, even clients and business associates she never would have expected to help were very generous. She also got help through the Red Cross and through the government. She's always very affected by news of disasters, and whenever there is a large disaster, we donate to the Red Cross. I think it is a very effective organization.

On the topic of old clothes, I'm a person who cannot stand waste in any form, and I always donate every stitch of clothing and any household item I cannot use anymore. Everything else I recycle. In the States, there are a lot of organizations like the Salvation Army or Saint Vincent De Paul that take used clothing and also do a lot of work for the poor. So many people think that these organizations work by giving donated clothing directly to the poor. To a very small degree they do do that. But mostly they sell it all to get money to do their good work. A very small percentage of donated goods that is in good enough condition is sold in thrift stores here in the states, but the largest portion of donated clothing is packed in shipping containers and sold by the ton overseas to buyers in poor countries who sell it there. Some of it is never worn again and is recycled into fiber. I've got no problem at all with that as long as the clothes I donate don't go to waste in the landfill, and the organization I give them to benefits in some way. My only point in bringing it up is that these organizations do their charitable work with money. Even donated goods mostly get turned into small amounts of money. So absolutely do donate your used clothing and other goods, but I still think the most valuable thing a person can donate (other than your own volunteer time and effort) is money.

That said, my wife did receive a very comfy soft t-shirt when she was burned out, and it was her absolute most favorite thing to wear to bed for years and years. It was only retired a year or two ago, after probably 20 years of use. Partly it was that it was so soft, but I'm sure there were sentimental reason for keeping it so long too.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

It is an underlying motive in the US to promote the Red cross, which is politicly aligned doctrine

I have never heard anyone ever assert that the Red Cross has any kind of political agenda, affiliation, or doctrine. I've only ever heard of them being a non-political, non-sectarian, non-aligned, and completely neutral humanitarian organization.

 

[Fishhead]

I'm really sorry, but from an Australian perspective, this seems very 'American'

Krusty

From an American perspective it also seems so.:cry:uke:

 

[ClayD]

I have never heard anyone ever assert that the Red Cross has any kind of political agenda, affiliation, or doctrine. I've only ever heard of them being a non-political, non-sectarian, non-aligned, and completely neutral humanitarian organization.

have you sat through thier "orientation"... i have.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

have you sat through thier "orientation"... i have.

LOL! Your comparison of the Red Cross was to churches, which do wonderful work in many cases, but they are not necessarily non-political, non-alingned, non-sectarian or neutral. Comparing the relief work of the Red Cross to churches is one thing, and it sounds like you have your own personal experience to draw on for that comparison, but comparing the political neutrality of the Red Cross to churches is a lot different, and I'd say the Red Cross is probably a lot less politically aligned than churches tend to be.

The most famous recent president of the Red Cross I can think of was Elizabeth Dole, who served in Reagan's cabinet, was a Republican Presidential candidate, and a Republican Senator from North Carolina, is married to Republican Senator and Presidential candidate Bob Dole, and was president of the Red Cross for eight years. I've never heard anyone say the Red Cross is anything but politically neutral, even when led by people with such a strong political background as Liddy Dole. You are the only person I have ever heard say such a thing. I completely disagree with you on this.

 

[ClayD]

LOL! Your comparison of the Red Cross was to churches, which do wonderful work in many cases, but they are not necessarily non-political, non-alingned, non-sectarian or neutral. Comparing the relief work of the Red Cross to churches is one thing, and it sounds like you have your own personal experience to draw on for that comparison, but comparing the political neutrality of the Red Cross to churches is a lot different, and I'd say the Red Cross is probably a lot less politically aligned than churches tend to be.

The most famous recent president of the Red Cross I can think of was Elizabeth Dole, who served in Reagan's cabinet, was a Republican Presidential candidate, and a Republican Senator from North Carolina, is married to Republican Senator and Presidential candidate Bob Dole, and was president of the Red Cross for eight years. I've never heard anyone say the Red Cross is anything but politically neutral, even when led by people with such a strong political background as Liddy Dole. You are the only person I have ever heard say such a thing. I completely disagree with you on this.

First, you completely misconstrued what was said. I didnt compare the red cross to churches, I said not to discount their efforts as being above par that of the redcross. that means you made the first comparison.

motive in the US to promote the Red cross, which is politicly aligned doctrine

In simple words that means the current agenda of the political system sees red cross as thier intrest bearing "releif group". This does not mean the red cross has its own political agenda.
in other words FEMA who is under the current administration likes to promote red cross as the only reasonable disaster relief. Can you imagine one reason why, the "tax" driven relief systems would tell you to donate money to the red cross, instead of donate common sense items to local efforts? KNowing that both FEMA and the RED CROSS cannot, absolutely, CANNOT reach everyone.

Again, its is false to ever say, dont give food, clothes, water or "efforts" to churches. it will never go wasted. Most church groups are in concert with large global organizations.

I am not playing churches against non-secular, and republican against democrat, Katrina was under a republican adminsitration, and the same thing occured there.... "dont send churches stuff, send red cross money..."
Meanwhile people went without lots of stuff...

In other words, never shoot the efforts of the volunteer in the foot. Red cross, or "secular denomination" guy giving free imunizations... Thats what i believe.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

First, you completely misconstrued what was said. I didnt compare the red cross to churches, I said not to discount their efforts as being above par that of the redcross. that means you made the first comparison.

In simple words that means the current agenda of the political system sees red cross as thier intrest bearing "releif group". This does not mean the red cross has its own political agenda.
in other words FEMA who is under the current administration likes to promote red cross as the only reasonable disaster relief. Can you imagine one reason why, the "tax" driven relief systems would tell you to donate money to the red cross, instead of donate common sense items to local efforts? KNowing that both FEMA and the RED CROSS cannot, absolutely, CANNOT reach everyone.

Again, its is false to ever say, dont give food, clothes, water or "efforts" to churches. it will never go wasted. Most church groups are in concert with large global organizations.

I am not playing churches against non-secular, and republican against democrat, Katrina was under a republican adminsitration, and the same thing occured there.... "dont send churches stuff, send red cross money..."
Meanwhile people went without lots of stuff...

In other words, never shoot the efforts of the volunteer in the foot. Red cross, or "secular denomination" guy giving free imunizations... Thats what i believe.

Sounds like we both probably misunderstood each other a bit, and we probably agree more than we disagree. The important thing is to help in whatever way you can.

 

[krusty]

LOL! I think "Fuster Cluck" will make an excellent name for a rocket! It'll need a cluster motor, and possibly a chicken head....

LOL yes! And I *do* have experience with Chicken heads

California is wildfire country too. My wife's home, everything in it, and her car were destroyed by a major wildfire fire more than 20 years ago, well before we met. It's pretty traumatic to suddenly own absolutely nothing, not even a toothbrush. She said she was amazed by the help she received from everyone. Family, friends and coworkers stepped forward, even clients and business associates she never would have expected to help were very generous. She also got help through the Red Cross and through the government. She's always very affected by news of disasters, and whenever there is a large disaster, we donate to the Red Cross. I think it is a very effective organization.

I think these sorts of major life-changing events really can bring out the best in people - and it really does go a long way to restore your faith in humanity. Well, that is until someone cuts in from the emergency lane on the freeway....

On the topic of old clothes, I'm a person who cannot stand waste in any form, and I always donate every stitch of clothing and any household item I cannot use anymore. Everything else I recycle. In the States, there are a lot of organizations like the Salvation Army or Saint Vincent De Paul that take used clothing and also do a lot of work for the poor. So many people think that these organizations work by giving donated clothing directly to the poor. To a very small degree they do do that. But mostly they sell it all to get money to do their good work. A very small percentage of donated goods that is in good enough condition is sold in thrift stores here in the states, but the largest portion of donated clothing is packed in shipping containers and sold by the ton overseas to buyers in poor countries who sell it there. Some of it is never worn again and is recycled into fiber. I've got no problem at all with that as long as the clothes I donate don't go to waste in the landfill, and the organization I give them to benefits in some way. My only point in bringing it up is that these organizations do their charitable work with money. Even donated goods mostly get turned into small amounts of money. So absolutely do donate your used clothing and other goods, but I still think the most valuable thing a person can donate (other than your own volunteer time and effort) is money.

A lot of clothes donated here get turned into rags for cleaning etc. They are sold to car yards and even the auto spares shops sell bags of rags. Provides both income for the charities and employment opportunities for those that can't work in mainstream jobs.

I've never been in a position to be able to donate more than a token amount of money, so I made a decision many years ago to make a difference by becoming a volunteer fire fighter and have never looked back.

Here's some photos I've taken while working - https://www.flickr.com/photos/oflittleinterest/collections/72157603882772186/

That said, my wife did receive a very comfy soft t-shirt when she was burned out, and it was her absolute most favorite thing to wear to bed for years and years. It was only retired a year or two ago, after probably 20 years of use. Partly it was that it was so soft, but I'm sure there were sentimental reason for keeping it so long too.

It's funny how seemingly simple things we receive hold so much meaning. I have a small origami box that my mother made some time before she passed away. I guess that will float around in my possessions for many years to come!

Krusty

 

[shrox]

...A lot of clothes donated here get turned into rags for cleaning etc. They are sold to car yards and even the auto spares shops sell bags of rags. Provides both income for the charities and employment opportunities for those that can't work in mainstream jobs.

Krusty

I understand it is done for good, but selling rags just sounds so Charles Dickens in the 21st century.

 

[krusty]

I understand it is done for good, but selling rags just sounds so Charles Dickens in the 21st century.

LOL it does! Never thought about it like that

Krusty

 

[luke strawwalker]

I understand it is done for good, but selling rags just sounds so Charles Dickens in the 21st century.

You'd be surprised at the level of need for rags in any kind of industrial setting... agriculture, mechanics, you name it...

My wife gets frustrated with me because I NEVER throw away old socks, underwear, T-shirts, jeans, etc... they ALL end up going for rags (after I've worn them completely out as work clothes, that is... sometimes "past worn out" in her opinion). Fact is, there's NEVER enough rags around a farm shop...

When I drove the schoolbus we had huge boxes of rags-- I'm talking boxes about 3 feet tall, by 2 feet square, stuffed tight with rags... the school bought them from some industrial supply that they got their shop chemicals and stuff from... these rags were torn up pieces of starched bedsheets, evidently hospital or hotel bedsheets that had "outlived their usefulness" and been laundered and starched then torn apart into strips and packed tightly into boxes for rags... I always kept 4-5 on the bus... they were good for cleaning windows on foggy damp mornings when the inside of the bus was wet as a freshly-used shower stall, and for general cleaning-- and I always kept a couple clean ones in the "glove box" by my seat for kids who got a nosebleed, cut themselves, picked a scab and started bleeding like a stuck pig, lost a tooth, or whatever... "Mister, I'm bleeding!" would get you a "here ya go, put that over it and press down, and tilt your head back if your nose is bleeding until it stops... don't take that off there til the bleeding stops". Some kids would want to give it back to you... "No thanks... you take that home with you... keep it on there til you get a proper band-aid..."

Later! OL JR

 

[shrox]

You'd be surprised at the level of need for rags in any kind of industrial setting... agriculture, mechanics, you name it...

My wife gets frustrated with me because I NEVER throw away old socks, underwear, T-shirts, jeans, etc... they ALL end up going for rags (after I've worn them completely out as work clothes, that is... sometimes "past worn out" in her opinion). Fact is, there's NEVER enough rags around a farm shop...

When I drove the schoolbus we had huge boxes of rags-- I'm talking boxes about 3 feet tall, by 2 feet square, stuffed tight with rags... the school bought them from some industrial supply that they got their shop chemicals and stuff from... these rags were torn up pieces of starched bedsheets, evidently hospital or hotel bedsheets that had "outlived their usefulness" and been laundered and starched then torn apart into strips and packed tightly into boxes for rags... I always kept 4-5 on the bus... they were good for cleaning windows on foggy damp mornings when the inside of the bus was wet as a freshly-used shower stall, and for general cleaning-- and I always kept a couple clean ones in the "glove box" by my seat for kids who got a nosebleed, cut themselves, picked a scab and started bleeding like a stuck pig, lost a tooth, or whatever... "Mister, I'm bleeding!" would get you a "here ya go, put that over it and press down, and tilt your head back if your nose is bleeding until it stops... don't take that off there til the bleeding stops". Some kids would want to give it back to you... "No thanks... you take that home with you... keep it on there til you get a proper band-aid..."

Later! OL JR

I know the uses, I grew up when every house had a box labelled "oily rags" that was kept close to the water heater next to the old refrigerator with a locking door. I just found it kind of sad to hear about people selling them.

 

[krusty]

I know the uses, I grew up when every house had a box labelled "oily rags" that was kept close to the water heater next to the old refrigerator with a locking door. I just found it kind of sad to hear about people selling them.

You have to get your rags from somewhere - Oily or not. Is there a rag life-cycle? Do used rags get recycled into something else? Or is that the rags final use and the journey is over?

Seems kind of sad.. Rag starts life as a fancy shirt and ends up wiping up gunk off the floor....

Krusty

 

[shrox]

You have to get your rags from somewhere - Oily or not. Is there a rag life-cycle? Do used rags get recycled into something else? Or is that the rags final use and the journey is over?

Seems kind of sad.. Rag starts life as a fancy shirt and ends up wiping up gunk off the floor....

Krusty

I think some rags become paper. Perhaps even toilet paper.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

I know the uses, I grew up when every house had a box labelled "oily rags" that was kept close to the water heater next to the old refrigerator with a locking door. I just found it kind of sad to hear about people selling them.

LOL! It's only sad and Dickensian if it's a poor homeless orphan selling rags on the street!

"Rags for sale! Rags for sale! Tuppence a bag! Formerlly fancy shirts for sale! Evenin' gov'na. Can I interest you in some old oily rags for wipn' the ole bunghole?"

That's sad. It's not so sad if the one selling the rags is Home Depot.