Vagabond Build mini-thread with interchangeable motor mount

Hi everyone,

So, I bought a Vagabond, and while it's a pretty cool looker with a long BT-60 body and stretched out nose cone, it's basically just a 3FNC not worthy of a build thread.

But I was planning to post a pic or two of mine with interchangeable 24 / 3x18 motor mounts, and my first attempt at a baffle.

But I messed up the baffle placement, and found sympathy with Wayco who was building one too and encountered his own difficulties:

My baffle thread wherein both I and Wayco encountered difficulties

Wayco started a rebuild / bash thread:

Wayco's build/bash thread

And I've decided to post a mini-build thread. I won't retread ground / pics from the baffle thread, at least not purposefully.

I didn't bother to get a pick of the kit components as a whole, but I'll say the balsa was excellent quality; nice and dense, The nose cone on the other hand needed a lot of work. It was one of the most poorly-joined cones I've seen in an Estes kit.



So I sanded it down, rubbed some spot putty into the voids, sanded some more...

Meanwhile I built the three fins, each of which was made of three pieces of Balsa. Nice design. The're interesting. I laid them on glass while the glue dried (I used Elmer's Wood Glue). I sealed them with thin CA, sanded a bit, and used some spot putty on the joins where the seams met because they weren't perfect. Sanded that down, and called 'em done. Note, I purposefully avoided getting any CA on or within a couple mm of the root edges.

Next I used my new Estes Fin Alignment tool thingie to put them onto the body tube, which had been sanded a bit to improve glue bite. I really don't like how there's lots of play in how the body tubes sit on it. I eventually supported the body tube with a coupler to make sure the tube was as close to plumb as possible.



The joints were simple double wood glue joints. I did one at a time and held for a couple minutes making sure the fins attached on straight. It worked out fine.



I wanted to do interchangeable motor mounts; here's my basic method:

1. Inside the lower body tube, I glue a centering ring that basically acts as a thrust block. In this case I used a BT55 to BT60 centering ring.




I guess one would wonder how I positioned the thrust block centering ring. I neglected to mention I assembed the 24mm mount and used it to push it in to the right distance.

Next, I glued some short strips of basswood that I had handy (5/32 " square cross section) in along where the fins were. I used Titebond Molding and Trim glue so that they wouldn't move on me.



In this next picture you can see the two motor mounts I made, including the notches in the centering rings needed to get past the basswood strips. It's a twist-lock design. For the triple 18 mm design, I used some more strips of basswood instead of an aft centering ring; when this mount is twisted properly these basswood strips mate with the ones in the body tube and prevent the mount from ejecting.



MEanwhile all the baffle stuff was going on; see that thread for details.

Eventually I got it all together, primed with Rustoleum high-build auto primer, and because I had a launch window today, put in all the recovery hardware.

I took it to the park. I think it was my third or fourth flight of the day.

Put in a D12-3 and attached the onboard keycam.



Of course I forgot to turn on the onboard camera! Drat!

The flight was OK, and I'm now uploading the ground based video. The chute had a bit of trouble getting out and fouled on the body tube but eventually opened OK and it was a soft landing. Baffle protected the chute just fine.

[YOUTUBE]ClLbPBYLaTQ[/YOUTUBE]

But I really wanted that onboard video so I loaded it up again. This time I remembered to engage the keycam!

This time the chute really didn't come out of the nose cone ... must have been too tight. The rocket came in ballistic and basically did a core sample thing, but the ground was too hard to actually core.

I thought it was done for, and I figured she was a goner. On the ground video you'll here me say it's the final flight. But actually the damage was minor.

[YOUTUBE]EOY3BVB_5Lk[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]jMr0g9CgYKY[/YOUTUBE]

The top body tube has some slight crumpling; much less than I would expect.



I'll just reinforce the cardboard tube with thin CA on the inside, sand the exterior, use some thin CA on the bare cardboard spots, then prime and paint.



The motor mount pushed through, breaking its forward centering ring, but the ring mounted in the body tube was unharmed. I'm fixing the mount by putting a new ring on it. Here's what was left of the old one:

Both of my NC's had the same crappy molding. I've also heard from others theirs were not great. Just part of the kit on this one I guess.... wonder if Estes would add a step "use putty to fill the junk mold an inch back from the NC tip"


Interesting videos. In the core sample, it seems weird the chute didn't fill. You can see it out there... just didn't wanna work that day. Boo.

Watching again I see it got caught up in the NC.

Yeah, this was the first day I had put chutes INSIDE the nose cone (see the baffle thread for why I'm doing it and how...).

After recovering the core sample I figured out what I was doing wrong and how to pack it properly. If not for the broken centering ring I would have flown it again, probably successfully.

Marc

Sorry to see the crimped front end of the Vagabond!
You should be good to go again with the CA repair you mentioned.

I like the removable engine mount. Thanks for sharing the build.
I'll have to try that sometime soon.

I'm thinking to make a BT50 downscale of the VAgabond... anybody know of a BT50 nose cone with similar profile?

Mark, pulling the laundry out of a big nose cone has never been a problem for me. When using smaller cones I actuall do a couple practice tests to make sure my packing technique is going to work for that particular rocket by blowing through the motor mount and simulating the event with the rocket flat as well as nose down. You may even want to pack the chute last so the shock cord pulls the chute out. Try a couple different ways to see what works best.

Glad to hear there wasn't too much damage. Between you and Wayne, I'm starting to think the Vagabond may have a jinx on it. :y:

Marc_G said:

I'm thinking to make a BT50 downscale of the VAgabond... anybody know of a BT50 nose cone with similar profile?

Click to expand...

Uncle Mikes has the PNC-50B for $2.50 it looks about right for size and shape.

The surefire style 2 $1.39 at hobbylinc is about the right size but the profile looks a bit off.

You'll enjoy the flight, particularly when you get a 29 mm engine in there!

Because this is a realtively heavy bird, for an Estes rocket anyway, it didn't go that high on a D12, but it was a sweet flight. Uh... except for the crash...

This will be my first rocket to use an Aerotech SU 24 mm (an E15, perhaps?). I've never bought any before but looking forward to it.

Marc

PS: Mine is more or less prettied up and has primer and white lacquer on it. Tomorrow the bottom section gets either red lacquer or fluorescent orange, I think.

Marc

OK, I can see from the nose cone picture that is a PNC-60RL, the same cone that was used on the National Aerospace Plane. Yeah thats a long one, longer than 5:1. You would need an ogive of about 5 inches exposed length for a BT-50 down scale.

Semroc has the BNC-50G5 at 4.9 inches it might be as close as you can get with out turning your own. They also have the BC-950 for series 9 body tubes which looks very close in profile.

Thanks. I googled around and found that Semroc does have a balsa version in BT-60 (BNC-60RL) and also has that BT-50 version you cited.

IF Estes is listing, PLEASE offer your plastic cones separately, even if it's bags of 5 instead of single pieces...

I've made peace with balsa cones but much prefer plastic. However, the cruddy mold job on the one I got with the Vagabond doesn't help me hold that opinion.

Marc

Here's the current state:

It's got Rusto fluorescent orange on the bottom, Rusto fluorescent yellow faded in at the top, and overcoated with a light coat of metallic clear lacquer. Then decals. I'll clearcoat over the decals and give it a coat of Future with Simplegreen.

Got decals and a coat of Valspar clear lacquer on it. May overcoat with Future tonight. Already looks sharp except the residual tube crumple marks at the top.

Went to HL with coupon to pick up some more D12-3 but they were out. Got a pack of E9-4 instead. Never used an E before. Somewhat worried about early flight stability due to low takeoff thrust in these.

May have launch window tomorrow morning.

Mark, when you ad simple green to future, are you adding 20% of the regular spray stuff or 20% concentrate from a refill bottle? I bought some simple green last night but didn't get the concentrate.

Also picked up a cheap spray bottle. Do you have to flush out the nozzle after use or has clogging not been an issue for you?

Thanks

El Cheapo said:

Mark, when you ad simple green to future, are you adding 20% of the regular spray stuff or 20% concentrate from a refill bottle? I bought some simple green last night but didn't get the concentrate.

Also picked up a cheap spray bottle. Do you have to flush out the nozzle after use or has clogging not been an issue for you?

Thanks

Click to expand...

Yeah, what he said. I went out today and got some white lacquer and clear lacquer at the Autozone. My first Vagabond is ready for color. It's gonna look a lot like yours (I hope). I'm planning on using your future/simple green mix when it's done.
I was watching your on board video to determine if a D-12-3 was the right delay, it looks like you popped the chute before apogee. Could this have been why the deployment went wrong? Any idea how high that rocket went? I'm just guessing, but maybe a D-12-5 might be a better choice. That's what Estes recommends for it's first flight. I know that our rockets are a little heavier with the baffles, but how much does yours weigh loaded?

Make sure the clear has UV protection or says non yellowing. If not, you will be dissapointed in a very short time.

The only time I use clear is on fourescent paints. Other than that I just use future. Even then, its a just enough to seal the FL paint and then future. Its really easy to krackle a paint job from spraying too much clear too fast. In my experience the reward of spray bomb clear is not worth the risk.

El Cheapo said:

Make sure the clear has UV protection or says non yellowing. If not, you will be dissapointed in a very short time.

The only time I use clear is on fourescent paints. Other than that I just use future. Even then, its a just enough to seal the FL paint and then future. Its really easy to krackle a paint job from spraying too much clear too fast. In my experience the reward of spray bomb clear is not worth the risk.

Click to expand...

I hear ya Tom, and agree that clear should only be used over the fluorescent paints, which is what I plan to use, just like Marc. The clear lacquer I got is Rusto and marked non-yellowing, and I believe the fluorescent paints are lacquer too, but I'm just guessing. I haven't used this particular lacquer, but the Testor's, which comes in a smaller can and costs a dollar more. I'll test it before I ruin the paint on the rocket (like that's never happened before). Thanks for the heads up though, I will keep the coats light at first....

El Cheapo said:

Mark, when you ad simple green to future, are you adding 20% of the regular spray stuff or 20% concentrate from a refill bottle? I bought some simple green last night but didn't get the concentrate.

Also picked up a cheap spray bottle. Do you have to flush out the nozzle after use or has clogging not been an issue for you?

Thanks

Click to expand...

The bottle is a spray bottle with smallish letters at the top saying it is concentrated, then in bigger letters Spray Cleaner or something to that effect.

I think I showed a picture of it over in TEchniques on the thread about Future Floor Wax (oops, it's not a wax... :blush: )

Doesn't say 20% concentrate or anything. It's just a regular spray bottle. And since I'm not sure what the Simple Green ingredients do, I'm not sure if it matters much what concentration is used. IT might be a simple surface tension thing while drying, in which case trace amounts might suffice.

Marc

Wayco said:

Yeah, what he said. I went out today and got some white lacquer and clear lacquer at the Autozone. My first Vagabond is ready for color. It's gonna look a lot like yours (I hope). I'm planning on using your future/simple green mix when it's done.
I was watching your on board video to determine if a D-12-3 was the right delay, it looks like you popped the chute before apogee. Could this have been why the deployment went wrong? Any idea how high that rocket went? I'm just guessing, but maybe a D-12-5 might be a better choice. That's what Estes recommends for it's first flight. I know that our rockets are a little heavier with the baffles, but how much does yours weigh loaded?

Click to expand...

Definitely test the clear lacquer on the white. Some clears in my hands tend to leave a matte surface which I interpret as being a "blush" effect. In particular Krylon clear enamel, and Duplicolor clear lacquer (both rattle cans) do this significantly. I have some evidence to support the theory they work better at lower humidity conditions than my fairly usual 65% / 85 F. As always, follow can instructions.

Also, I don't think the flourescent paints are lacquers but they don't act like enamels either. I've found they work fine on top of colored lacquers (such as your white lacquer) or under clear lacquers without incompatibility problems. I did have a bad experience once spraying the flourescent paint on topf of pretty fresh Rusto white enamel; the flourescent paint didn't hurt the white but it had a surface tension thing and beaded up and dried looking crackly. I have sprayed flourescents on top of white lacquer after 1 hour at 80 F.

I've topcoated with clear lacquer (Valspar) after 30 minutes, an hour, or a day without problems.

Never tried Rusto clear lacquer due to availability issues... the Valspar comes from the Lowes right down my street :wink:

D12-5 is probably best choice for a straight up flight; I used 3 due to the arcing expected due to angled rod.

I launched twice on D12-3 and had the rod pointed into the wind a bit and got some weather cocking too; it had to do with where I wanted the bird to land (core sample notwithstanding).

Best of luck!

Oh, one other thing:

re: clearcoats.

+100 on buying the non-yellowing stuff.

That being said, I've had excellent luck with either Valspar clear lacquer or Rustoleum Crystal Clear Enamel. Two very different products but used properly (thin coats, be careful about heat effects and humidity) they do a fabulous job of making the rocket shine, and my rockets with them underneath a coat of Future (with simple green, these days) look better than without.

Both of these have held up so far for the year I've been using them and taken reasonable abuse. I much prefer the lacquer route, but of course that only works on top of other compatible paints and that excludes enamels!

I prefer a clear coat to give me a deep shine, not just for flourescent jobs. I realize it's a matter of preference and some on this forum have different opinions. :handshake:

Marc

Mark, tried to find your thread on future but wasnt able to. The 20% I was refering to was the ratio of SG to FF. Anywho, how much simple green per future are you using. Im anxious to try this out.

Marc_G said:

Went to HL with coupon to pick up some more D12-3 but they were out. Got a pack of E9-4 instead. Never used an E before. Somewhat worried about early flight stability due to low takeoff thrust in these..

Click to expand...

Previous failures with E9's were what lead me to get the Vagabond.

My first launch with an E9-6 in my 10 ounce phoenix went ok...
https://gallery.me.com/dbmccann#100675&bgcolor=black&view=grid

The second ended poorly
https://gallery.me.com/dbmccann#100685&bgcolor=black&view=grid


I haven't had a chance to launch my Vagabond yet, but I think it'll fair better at 4-5 ounces. Boost was good on both, it was just the coast phase I ran into trouble, combined with the too long delay.

El Cheapo said:

Mark, tried to find your thread on future but wasnt able to. The 20% I was refering to was the ratio of SG to FF. Anywho, how much simple green per future are you using. Im anxious to try this out.

Click to expand...

HEre's the thread:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=23500

I use 4 parts Future (Pledge with Future Shine) to 1 part Simple Green. So ... uh... 20% SG!

Give it a whirl. I did my Vagabond tonight. Looks awesome. Pics tomorrow. It's Future/SG on top of clear lacquer on top of decals on top of thin coat of metallic clear lacquer on top of white/orange/yellow. Shiny and deep looking!

Oh.. and to conserve material, I've been painting the future mix onto the rocket lately with a foam brush per the comments others made in the thread. Looks the same but wastes almost none. Thanks guys for the tip!

Marc

Hi guys,

Here are some shots of the completed, cleared, Future+Simple-Greened bird ready for flight:

Actually this first one was last night before I put on the future:



Then I took these just now:







Can't wait to fly her. Today's launch was aborted due to need to get my kids haircuts, and it's also a bit breezy. Hoping for better chance tomorrow but the wind forecast looks intimidating.

Marc

I gave the spray bottle a whirl last night. Left all kinds of bubbles when I applied a second coat. It didnt seam to level out quite right either. Im goung to strip it down and try again. Otherwise I'll go back to sponge brush. I do think there may be some benefit in adding the simple green though.

With a 24mm mount (but no D-E adaptor) it weighs 5.88 oz. I think a D12-3 or 5 engine weighs about 1.6 OZ, so total flight weight comes to about 6.6 oz including engine and the adaptor.