MDRA stands for………..

Regarding the "mad dash" for the pads goes, to me, that's unacceptable on a regional launch. It needs to be more organized than that, or you're going to have issues at some point.

If there are kids running loose, unsupervised, on the range, that's a problem. I've seen it before; we had to discipline someone locally because of an unsupervised child creating a safety issue.

I cannot speak to what did or didn't happen with kids on the MDRA range; I wasn't there.

-Kevin

skycopp said:

I wouldn't describe it as chaos. Like I said, 95% of the time there are enough pads to go around. The 5%, I just waited until the next round. What I'd like to see is some sort of system to help those who were not lucky enough to get a pad, to be able to have dibs for the next round. I'm having difficulty thinking of something that doesn't require more volunteers.

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I'm unclear as to why there is "luck" involved in getting a pad - have a numbered clipboard for each pad at the entrance, when there are no clipboards available don't go out to the pad area - pretty basic

That might be an option to require all flyers to volunteer, however there are a lot of people that only can make it one day and may not have enough time to help out. Also, we may end up having to have a volunteer police, someone to go chasing a 'volunteer' down. Maybe a twist could be added to your idea, all volunteers receive a discount on launch fees, or a cool tshirt, or bonus raffle tickets.

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I have a little trouble with a flyer who can't donate 1 hours time to the team effort, but the discount or gift idea is a good plan

troj said:

Regarding the "mad dash" for the pads goes, to me, that's unacceptable on a regional launch. It needs to be more organized than that, or you're going to have issues at some point.

If there are kids running loose, unsupervised, on the range, that's a problem. I've seen it before; we had to discipline someone locally because of an unsupervised child creating a safety issue.

I cannot speak to what did or didn't happen with kids on the MDRA range; I wasn't there.

-Kevin

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Understood. There were announcements about parents keeping control over kids and warning them again that this is a 'ROCKET launch'.

As a dad that likes to bring his 4 young daughter's to launches, I couldn't agree more with the original poster's sentiment.

The sport is dangerous enough without kids crossing the RSO line right before a launch.

Worse in my book is the kids that feel they have the right to touch, play with, and walk-through all of our rockets we put out on blankets behind our car. I have no problem letting kids check out the rockets - in fact, I like to encourage their interaction when I'm around. When I find kids walking right through the blanket (and stepping on fins) I have to wonder what their parents are teaching them (better, where are their parents?).

I spend a lot of time and effort teaching my kids the proper way to conduct themselves - it's undermined in 30 seconds when they see other kids playing tag or have pushing matches right next to someone's rockets.

falingtrea said:

Well, since you have a board with clips (I assume with one clip per pad) then all you have to do is require that people put their fight cards on the clips BEFORE going out. You have an RCO checking models before they go out anyway, don't you (I would hope so)? So he/she can be right next to the clipboard and put the flight card on the clipboard after checking the model. That's how we do it at MASA launches. And how it was done when I was with SSS in AZ (both lunches using misfire alley style).

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I think that was how the Indiana club did it. I'm remembering a board with info for each pad with the size of rod/rail, and a clip to put the flight card on it. So you know beforehand if there's a 1/2" rod for your rocket...
Maybe I can make something up before our next regional launch.

I guess for starters I'll say thanks to all who attended and a bigger thanks to all who helped out. Next I'll say to Gator, Sorry for what happened, I understand your frustration and anger and "Yes", you are always welcome to come back and fly with us. No one will hold it against you for being ticked off and voicing it. I would like to address some of your comments, and those made by others.
As to the "Running of the Bulls", Yea, it got to be a bit much. Each MDRA club meeting starts with a "Safety Debrief" of the prievous launch, and I do plan to bring this point up. There are considerations to keep in mind. The main problem time was Saturday between 11 and 3. Sunday was manageable. I plan to sugest some sort of pad assignment system, probably a "Cattle chute" system and safeing area for igniter instalation. This should streamline the flow to and from the pads. I have no doubt that sugesting it will automatically volunteer me to set it up and be responsible for manning it but I'll accept that. MDRA has used the pad controll system seen this weekend for every launch and we've had little to no problems ( and we launch every month). Reciently MDRA has been in a position to give back to the community. It is through the Red Glare launches that we do these outreaches; Such as breast cancer reasearch and treatment for RG9. As such, each Red Glare launch grows larger than the one before it. Red Glare 8 had over 600 registered flyers. There were two rows of cars and canopies lined up. At RG9 we had three rows of parking plus a seperate ( and fairly full) lot for spectator parking. That would imply nearly doubling the people in attendence managed by basically the same number of volenteers. A large number of these folks are new to rocketry. For many, this was their first exposure to rocketry. We, MDRA, encourage kids to get involved in rocketry. Get the kids and you get their parents. Because there are so many new people who don't know what's going on, it becomes the responsibility of every flyer to act as a safety officer. If you see a safety problem don't just complain about it, do something. Educate the kids and their parents. You don't need to be a jerk about it just be informative. I had to do this a number of times myself in the recovery area and the parents were very appriciative of it. They often don't want to interupt someone who is obviously preoccupied so it's up to us "Veterans" to step in.
This brings me to my final point. WE NEED YOUR HELP!!! If you fly at an MDRA launch you are a member. That makes it YOUR CLUB and YOUR LAUNCH. Step up! These events don't happen by themselves. I will volunteer to do some form of pad assignment but I spent 10 hours this weekend at the RSO table. I'm not complaining but I won't be able to do two things at once. I did manage to get 2 flights up this weekend but the majority of the BOD and volunteer staff didn't get a shot off as most of them were pulling double, even TRIPLE duty. WE NEED YOUR HRLP! There were a number of folks who showed up Thursday night to "Steak Their Claim" for a parking space on the line and offering no help with setup, promply left. Expect this practice to be addressed as well. Many of these same folks, after recovering their last shot, promptly packed up and left. No help given or offered. We're not asking for a lot. One hour out of the weekend to help with YOUR launch.
Finally, There may be a missconception as to the nature of MDRA. Though we honor Tripoli and NAR memberships, Require a Cert from either for High Power and follow the safety codes of both; MDRA is it's own entity. Every MDRA launch is an EX Launch and EVERYONE is welcome who wants fly safely and learn; Mod Roc and Mid Power as well as HP. Red Glare is not High Power Exclusive.
Come to the meetings, Volunteer and get involved. It's the ONLY way we can improve what we do.
So with all that said, Gator; Can we count on you for an hour of Pad manager duty at RG10?

Delta-IV said:

We’ve had similar instances here at our NEFAR launches. There were times when us older slower gruntilions would get passed by the younger, quicker and very enthusiastic on our way to the pads.

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It's not always the age of the rocketeer. A person carrying a LOC Forte with a G motor can often move faster than one(or two) carrying a LOC Bruiser with an L motor...

skycopp said:

Understood. There were announcements about parents keeping control over kids and warning them again that this is a 'ROCKET launch'.

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The fact that multiple announcements were required is indicative of a problem.

I see two issues that have been presented, and both are fairly easily resolved...

1) Parents that don't supervise their kids. If a child is on the range, and a warning has been issued, escort the child back to their parents, and ask them to leave. If that doesn't work, when kids are running loose on the range, shut down the range for 30 minutes.

2) Volunteers -- your concern about pad assignment was in regards to "needing more volunteers". It's easy -- if there aren't volunteers for a shift, shut down the range.

Yes, some will say it's harsh. But do it once or twice, and I bet your problems will disappear.

There's no reason you should have problems keeping kids off the range, or in getting volunteers, at a regional launch.

-Kevin

Bazookadale said:

I'm unclear as to why there is "luck" involved in getting a pad - have a numbered clipboard for each pad at the entrance, when there are no clipboards available don't go out to the pad area - pretty basic


I have a little trouble with a flyer who can't donate 1 hours time to the team effort, but the discount or gift idea is a good plan

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At our twice-yearly regional launch, we ALWAYS have problems getting volunteers. We have registration, RSO, pad manager, and LCO, with 2 hour shifts each. There are usually just 3 or 4 of us who volunteer every launch. The rest of the positions are either filled by someone doing a 'double', either on purpose or by being 'guilted' into it. It's pretty sad, actually.

But as for someone not being able to do a volunteer shift, what about someone who is doing a cert attempt? I'm planning one in a few weeks, and I've been advised to cancel my range shift for that day. I haven't done it yet, but I'm considering it...

The two most effective ways I've seen situations like this handled was first, to assign pads. The use of "tokens" for each pad was perfect. No token...no launch. This meant that even if the pad was free, no token, no launch. You sign in, the RCO gives you a token, you take the token and the rocket to the pad. Once you load the rocket, you bring the token back to the RCO, he/she takes it and launches the rocket. RCO gives the token to the next guy. The down side is that is slows the launch down a bit. Only when an individual has a bad ignitor or something along those lines.

Second, as far as the kids go...agree with Gator 108%. The best way I've seen this dealt with is by the RCO shutting down the range until the crowd is under control. It forces the law abiding citizens to take ownership of the launch...and keep the non-participants behind the rope. The only thing this takes is courage by the RCO...

:2:

troj said:

The fact that multiple announcements were required is indicative of a problem.

I see two issues that have been presented, and both are fairly easily resolved...

1) Parents that don't supervise their kids. If a child is on the range, and a warning has been issued, escort the child back to their parents, and ask them to leave. If that doesn't work, when kids are running loose on the range, shut down the range for 30 minutes.

2) Volunteers -- your concern about pad assignment was in regards to "needing more volunteers". It's easy -- if there aren't volunteers for a shift, shut down the range.

Yes, some will say it's harsh. But do it once or twice, and I bet your problems will disappear.

There's no reason you should have problems keeping kids off the range, or in getting volunteers, at a regional launch.

-Kevin

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Whats the punishment for loosing your child on the range?

I hope getting lost is the worst thing Gavin and Garret do, but I think everyone in THOR knows that they can correct them when they do something stupid (especially if I didn't catch them doing it. Once on research day Gavin started out toward the pad I was working at and he got a pretty good chewin from me.

I think we are lucky to have good people on our range, and I haven't seen any real problems.

John

A really great rocket club that puts on a world class launch. Hence the growing crowds. What happened to your rocket would have angered me also, a lot of work goes into these rockets, and if it's going to get destoyed it's going to be in a blaze of burning propellant, or a too quick trip to the ground.
Managing a 3 day launch with that size crowd is no small task, my hat is off the the MDRA crew. They put a lot of time and hard work into Red Glare and to me some of what you described are annoyances that are going to happen at a big launch, just like the constant fire-fighting was annoying.
I did not see kids wandering around the launch pads. The kids that were out there were loading thier rocket with thier family members and then left the range to await launch.
There is a possibility it was not a child that damaged your rocket. One of the guys from my club was retrieving his rocket on Saturday and a man had it in his hands and was turning off the altimeter, not cool.
I had a great time at Red Glare even though 2 out of 5 of my launches ended with a destroyed rocket. Going to Red Glare is like going to the beach, sometimes you've got to sit back and enjoy the show.

G2Rockets said:

Whats the punishment for loosing your child on the range?

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Buying the club officers dinner three times a year, for the next five years.

I hope getting lost is the worst thing Gavin and Garret do

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You and me both, and let's hope there's not a repeat! Poor Carmen was about to have a heart attack, I think!

but I think everyone in THOR knows that they can correct them when they do something stupid (especially if I didn't catch them doing it. Once on research day Gavin started out toward the pad I was working at and he got a pretty good chewin from me.

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Your kids have never been a problem -- they know what's expected of them.

My challenge is Daniel -- if I turn my back for a minute, he wanders off. Fortunately, he's a social butterfly and has just found someone else to socialize with.

There's a reason I don't launch when I have Dan with me....

I think we are lucky to have good people on our range, and I haven't seen any real problems.

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Yep, we do. Biggest problem is kids sometimes climbing on the hay bales, and they get down when told to do so.

-Kevin

MR. Gator,
I can guarantee you that MDRA and its leadership will welcome you back with open arms. Freedom of speach is great.
Randy Appelbaum
METRA BOD
TRA L-3 12021
NAR l-3 88107

troj said:

My challenge is Daniel -- if I turn my back for a minute, he wanders off. Fortunately, he's a social butterfly and has just found someone else to socialize with.

-Kevin

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Next time you are coming with Daniel let us know. we will bring the video games and Garret would love to play video games with him. The last time you brought him I thought he did just fine.

John

I'm going to throw out a suggestion and I'd like to hear some feedback.... Keep in mind, I'm just a member of MDRA and not on the board, nor do I represent MDRA.

Since the problem of the running of the bulls is during a small portion of the launch, I'd hate to create another spot for volunteers to fix a small 5% type of problem. My suggestion is that if someone goes out there to put up a rocket, but there are no more slots, then he see's the Pad Manager (who is there to assist those who need help staging their rockets). The Pad Manager will stamp the flight card or write in big red letters, 'PRIORITY'. Then on the next go round, show the Pad Manager the flight card, and he can ensure that a spot is made for you.
Comments?

G2Rockets said:

Whats the punishment for loosing your child on the range?

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John,

Your boy didn't get lost! He was abducted by the Kloudbusters who then promptly got themselves lost!

Bob

BBrown said:

John,

Your boy didn't get lost! He was abducted by the Kloudbusters who then promptly got themselves lost!

Bob

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That kid still tells that story like it was the neatest thing since ketchup (his mom still cringes when she hears it). He could have ended up with worse company. If he would have ended up with Smemo he would have been corrupted for life.

P.S. nice signature

Threemorewishes said:

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I want one of these for our CMASS launches. Please, please, please, pleeeeeeeeeze.

Oh, and I'll take an expresso, too (not the Fliskits one, though - alright, the Fliskits one, too).

skycopp said:

Since the problem of the running of the bulls is during a small portion of the launch, I'd hate to create another spot for volunteers to fix a small 5% type of problem. My suggestion is that if someone goes out there to put up a rocket, but there are no more slots, then he see's the Pad Manager (who is there to assist those who need help staging their rockets). The Pad Manager will stamp the flight card or write in big red letters, 'PRIORITY'. Then on the next go round, show the Pad Manager the flight card, and he can ensure that a spot is made for you.

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But how will you make sure they get a priority if it's a free-for-all to get the pads?

-Kevin

rappel62 said:

I can guarantee you that MDRA and its leadership will welcome you back with open arms. Freedom of speach is great.

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This doesn't surprise me -- the MDRA folks I've met are all very friendly people.

-Kevin

troj said:

But how will you make sure they get a priority if it's a free-for-all to get the pads?

-Kevin

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The Pad Manager will have the authority to ask a flyer to stand down for someone who has had to wait a round. They in turn will get priority next go round.
Not an optimal solution, but I think it is one with less overhead and ensures that no one will have to wait longer than 1 round.

skycopp said:

The Pad Manager will have the authority to ask a flyer to stand down for someone who has had to wait a round. They in turn will get priority next go round.
Not an optimal solution, but I think it is one with less overhead and ensures that no one will have to wait longer than 1 round.

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Instead, I'd suggest the LCO (or someone else) assign pads before people go out.

Many fliers will be cooperative, but imagine having someone given a priority card, then the LCO has to go evict someone who's just finished arming their altimeters, who uses the twist & poke method.

Now, what do you do?

-Kevin

The RSO could write the time on the launch card after the rocket has been approved for launch. The person with the earliest timestamp gets to use the pad first.

It seems that Gator's other problem could have been prevented by not laying his rockets on the ground and using a radio tracker on tiny $200 rockets that fly out of sight.

Dave

troj said:

Instead, I'd suggest the LCO (or someone else) assign pads before people go out.

Many fliers will be cooperative, but imagine having someone given a priority card, then the LCO has to go evict someone who's just finished arming their altimeters, who uses the twist & poke method.

Now, what do you do?

-Kevin

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That is one of the issues that I thought of when it comes to evicting someone. The Pad Manager would have ask someone who is the least ready. But think about it, if you've waited a round and as soon as the range is deemed 'safe', then there shouldn't be a problem with finding a free pad or at least someone who is not 'armed and ready'.

DaveHein said:

The RSO could write the time on the launch card after the rocket has been approved for launch. The person with the earliest timestamp gets to use the pad first.

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Interesting idea!
There is only one drawback that I can think of is that someone will get RSO'd, then goes and buys a RoadKill burger. Meanwhile the pads are safe and people are loading up. Then, with grease dripping from the chin, he'll run up at the last minute to one of the remaining flyers and evict him because he has an earlier timestamp. Meanwhile, there is a longer wait.
Probably a small chance of that happening but still an idea worthy of consideration.

Kloudbusters has held some big launches, with lots of people attending, and yes getting volunteers is always an issue. I think the way they handle the pads works well, with a minimum of Pad Managers. They use the cattle stall method, with stalls for A-G, H-J, then larger. People line up at the appropriate stalls, and you only let enough through for the pads you have. Usually a couple of pad managers handle 40+ pads this way. Not to say that there aren't exceptions, but this seems to work well.

Mike D.
One of the Happy volunteers, sometimes that is where I learn the most, and see the best launches!

stantonjtroy said:

So with all that said, Gator; Can we count on you for an hour of Pad manager duty at RG10?

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If I am back from FL and able to attend(get time off from work) I would be happy to do a cpl hours to help out and I also agree other members should do the same.This was the first time I had been to a launch of this magnitude so had no clue more staff was needed,just figured it was covered.Maybe on Glare X do what I noticed Mid-West is doing on their site and do a volunteer page to sign up for duties.

https://www2.mysignup.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?datafile=midwestpower

skycopp said:

I wouldn't describe it as chaos. Like I said, 95% of the time there are enough pads to go around. The 5%, I just waited until the next round. What I'd like to see is some sort of system to help those who were not lucky enough to get a pad, to be able to have dibs for the next round. I'm having difficulty thinking of something that doesn't require more volunteers.

That might be an option to require all flyers to volunteer, however there are a lot of people that only can make it one day and may not have enough time to help out. Also, we may end up having to have a volunteer police, someone to go chasing a 'volunteer' down. Maybe a twist could be added to your idea, all volunteers receive a discount on launch fees, or a cool tshirt, or bonus raffle tickets.

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There is nothing wrong with the way MDRA conducts the pad assignments, which is: after you clear RSO you go to the pad, select the pad that has the appropriate rail or rod for your size project, set it up with the pad manager - IF his help is needed (done that duty as well as fire crew) note the pad number on your card and bring it back to the LCO for placement on the corresponding clip. MDRA handles a very large volumne of rockets launched, waiting for an LCO to assign a pad would take too darn long, the pad manager on the rack in the field will sometimes assign a pad if necessary (he has told me on occassion when it was necessary which pad to use, since he was aware of recent rail or rod size changes made).

Before Gator starts biting - maybe he should check out the online info at MDRA in a tad more detail...

MDRA already has an online page "sign up" for all volunteer duties - they put it up weeks before the launch and mass email members. That's how I've signed up. Go check it out...they''ve been doing for years, probably before everybody else did.

MDRA even has videos online to show you how to do everything...from how to register, how to do RSO, how to use the launch pad and how to be a pad manager.
What other club goes to that effort to get people aware of what to do?
That's how this organization can pull off one of the biggest launches on the east coast - twice a year.


https://www.mdrocketry.org/membership/howto/#PMRSO
https://www.mdra-archive.org/apps/wpisa.dll/MDRA/Signup/Launches/