AMW Inc. looking for ideas.

If you want the volume, here's a challenge:

To come up with 29 / 40-120 hobby line casing with reloads
at 62.5 grams max ....

That is prolly the largest volume segment of the reload market,
and if BATF does away with easy access high power requiring LEUP's and storage magazines it will grow a lot....

Originally posted by constevens
Bring back some of the BIG nasty cases and loads for 54mm and 38mm The ultra long ones..

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Yeah, What he said!

Plus the long burn reloads of course...

I'll put my vote in 29mm and a wider variety of 38mm.

Paul - Thanks for coming to us and seeking out just what we would want to purchase. I for one would be very interested in purchasing a variety of 54-38mm long burn motors. Also I would be interested in paying a few bucks more if you could include an "approved" e-match for your motors. It would make a no brainer (like that Canadian company) as some of us have had difficulties at times due to the many variables of various home made e-matches / ignitors. Perhaps add them as a seperate addition to the zoo. Thanks again I look forward to the new arrivals

Don't get your hopes up on ANYTHING 29mm.

Funny...I sent them an e-mail last week, before this thread, asking if they had any plans for 29mm. Here's my reply:

Thanks for your interest in AMW.

Sorry, No 29mm in our horizon.
The 29mm HPR market has too little revenue .vs the investment for us to be interested.
The 29mm LPR market is not of interest at all.
Between the additional liability being exposed to selling into the 14-21 year old market, the CPSC regulations, and hobby shop retail market - wholesale rules; we would need to sell 25,000-50,000 29mm "F" motors a MONTH to justify entering the 29mm market. Even Aerotech will admit to make any money in the LPR market requires huge volume. With the overall rocketry market currently 30% of the revenue that existed prior to 9/11, the required volume level is not available in the market, period. It would be even worse if what does exist was spread between even more manufacturers.

Warm Regards.
AMW Zoo Keepers
.

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Seems to me that this is kinda bogus, but I'm not exactly an 'insider'. What's the big investment? You're talking some aluminum tubes a few seals/parts and 29mm grain-molds. The company HAS a distributor/retailer network...they HAVE the propellant blends...they HAVE a 'fan-base'.

And I didn't know 14 y.o.s can buy f-g motors...I thought it was 18. I dunno...if they're OK with surrendering an entire MARKET SEGMENT to AT...a segment where brand loyalties are created...a segment that I'm GUESSING dwarfs the HP market (in terms of unit-volume, not necess. $$)...a segment that I believe is growing pretty rapidly the last few years, then who the hull am I to argue?

AT's already coming out w/the green stuff...if they can get a Skid-equivalent, I'll be all set!! Apparantly they have no trouble going after AMW's core audience...seems kinda sad that AMW won't fight back in 29mm!!

.

the market for 29mm is definately there in the northeast from what i've seen and from what i feel. there just arent that many huge fields to launch 54mm+ motors at...i for one would buy the hardware/reloads for a new 29mm product, AT has the market cornered and i think something new needs to be introduced.

Originally posted by Rock_It

One thing I've noticed about 29mm motors is they are generally C grain geometry to lower the impulse. Now I don't pretend to know very much about motor making...in fact, I know very little about it. What I do know is based on what I have seen and that is limited. If they were to incorporate C grain motors, and had to make that move to keep the impulse inline that would require a whole completely different linbe of stuff and research.

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The c-slot grains are only for the E-G loads in the 29/40-120 hobby casing. All the loads for the 120, 240, and 360 casing are "bates" grains.

For the AeroTech 29mm reloads:

C-Slot grain
E16
E23
F22
F40
F52
G33
G64

BATES grain
F37
F62
G54
G104
G77
G79
G75
H128
H165
H238
H97
H180
H210
H220
H268
I200

Obviously, the BATES grains outnumber the C-Slot grains.

-Aaron

.

they've opened themselves up to suggestions...i suggested 29mm motors...

how about another suggestion, how about smaller 38mm cases and loads, like baby H's in skidmark and BB...i'd buy...

All I'm sayin is they ASKED us what we want...the majority of respondants replied w/ "29mm!!"...yet it's clear that that ain't gonna happen.

What else is there, really? Same diameters...same propellants but with longer/shorter hardware & more/fewer grains.

Big whoop!!

Truly NEW things would be:

-Single-use motors (maybe THAT might be 29mm-able?)
-New propellant qualities/gimmicks (bright yellow flame, colored SMOKE, maybe SILENT?)
-Combo, color-changing grains (i.e. green-to-blue-to-red)
-Special ignitors that work on Green Gorilla ALL THE TIME
-Special comic nozzles that sound like a kazoo/whoopie cushion

That's my input! I AM gonna go 54/38mm soon (by spring) maybe I'll go AMW, maybe not (that'll be a whole 'nother overboard analysis/comparison on my part)...but I know I'm gonna be launching 29mm as long as I stay in the hobby.

Any chance on a 29mm propellant LICENSING agreement between AMW/AT?? I'm guessing not (if there's ANYTHING like the AT/Caeseroni feud I've beer reading in another thread!!)...but jeez...if both parties can make money, I don't see why it couldn't happen!!

Dean

I agree, as many others have said, those of us on the East Coast are pretty limited in what we can fly unless all flights are DD.

Josh

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, but it seems to me you are beating a dead horse....

They don't want to make 29 mm motors. Period. Probably for the same reason Cesaroni is not making 29 mm motors (not enough $$$ to be made).

Aerotech already has the market for that motor size. Their development costs are already absorbed. In addition, when they got into the 29 mm and 38 mm motors, they were considered "big" motors. Slowly things have evolved , and today 29 mm motors are considered a commodity. In parallel with this, the cost of developing and certifying new motors has skyrocketed (pun intended) in the past 10-15 years.

I think we should focus on the things AMW can and wants to make.

Cheers.

Originally posted by Rock_It
All of those bates grain motors are HPR, not MPR or LPR. There are no bates grains made by AT that are LPR or MPR. I'm not sure about that the new G77R single use motor. That may be an exception. When you get into HPR a 38mm motor could be used so that cuts into the amrket even more in the HPR motors.

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C-Slot grains that are HPR
G-33 (more than 62.5g of propellant)

BATES grains that are not HPR
F37
F62
G54
G77
G79

-Aaron

What's the difference?

I know what it is physically, but in terms of designing casings, overall performance...whatever...isn't this kind of a trivial point?

If the AT hobby-line c-slots had the BATES design instead, there'd be no difference...would there?

Seems to me that this is ONLY a mfg. issue....a slot is easier to cut for single grainers, whereas multiple-grain motors need a single hole for stacking.

There may not be any money to be made in 29mm, but the addiction leads to bigger motors. Sell AMW 29mm and you will have future AMW 38mm and 54mm buyers. Aerotech gets people that way. You might make more money (overall) by doing 29mm.?

Seems to me that this is kinda bogus, but I'm not exactly an 'insider'. What's the big investment? You're talking some aluminum tubes a few seals/parts and 29mm grain-molds. The company HAS a distributor/retailer network...they HAVE the propellant blends...they HAVE a 'fan-base'.

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Ever cast 29mm Propellant Grains? 54mm and Up is easy to make in quantity. However, smaller sizes is harder. When pouring the propellant in smaller tubes, the bead will cling to the side of the casting tube, creating all kinds of problems. Pretty much the only way to make 29mm is ether pack by hand, water down the propellant (less solids), or invest in equipment that will inject the propellant in the tube. Packing by hand will take longer. Smaller batches will have to be produced because you do have a working time to get the propellant in the tubes. Watering down the propellant has a lot of drawbacks. Making the equipment is expensive. that would be one of the big investments. Also, the other issue is costs. There is less material per grain, but the time it takes to make the grains takes longer in the smaller sizes. Time is money. Would you make and sell 29mm motors IF you don't pay yourself for the time it took you to make them?

I would love it if AMW made 29mm. I would imediatly buy two of his 180 and 240 equivalent motors, and several loads. I have sold all of my Aerotech 38mm and 54mm RMS stuff. I only use AMW. I would love to sell my Aerotech 29mm stuff.

38mm 1 grain G Skids would be ideal for me to use in my oddrocs in my home field as it's mostly dirt.

I would love it if AMW made 29mm. I would imediatly buy two of his 180 and 240 equivalent motors, and several loads. I have sold all of my Aerotech 38mm and 54mm RMS stuff. I only use AMW. I would love to sell my Aerotech 29mm stuff.

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Yer' kinda on both sides of this one...you talk about how it doesn't make sense, then you say you'd switch in a heartbeat!!

Well...I don't think AT casts their grains...they look machined/lathed to me. Just a wild guess, of course...maybe it's a combination of both, but they are definitely trued up & bored awfully purty!! I think this has to be it...otherwise, if you're right (messy/labor intensive), how the helll does AT make 18-24mm stuff (again, the grains are VERY precise/smooth)

And the deal is...and I think it's clear, that there is a VERY large market for 29mm I think the economics work out where there is more profit margin with them compared to bigger stuff.

I don't have time for the math...but assuming the seals/parts are the same....don't you get more propellant per $$ (weight) with big engines than you do w/29mm.

Who really knows/cares...as 'burner said, it's clear they ain't gonna do it, and I'm sure they've crunched the numbers. AT's a formidable beast because they sell everything; kits, launchers, components...and beginners like consistancy (not much competition for Estes in AA-E!!!).

But on the other hand [groan]....how the hell could they have crunched the numbers in a way that made their entry into 38mm feasable but not 29mm?? If they were gearing up for a new size...wouldn't it make more sense to go w/the one that probby outsells the other by 3 or 4 to 1??

NOt sure what Aerotech does, but I am 99% sure they have injecting equipment, and I also have a feeling (but no fact to back this up) that the propellant formulas in the smaller size have less solids. And usually making the propellant is a combination on both casting and maching. Pour the propellant, cut the grains, core the core.


I am not two sided on my comment there. I was saying I would buy them in a heart beat, but I understand the problems.

Originally posted by Deandome
All

Truly NEW things would be:

-Single-use motors (maybe THAT might be 29mm-able?)
-New propellant qualities/gimmicks (bright yellow flame, colored SMOKE, maybe SILENT?)
-Combo, color-changing grains (i.e. green-to-blue-to-red)
-Special ignitors that work on Green Gorilla ALL THE TIME
-Special comic nozzles that sound like a kazoo/whoopie cushion

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SU Motors would be really cool.
Colored Smoke would be really cool.
Color changing grains (perhaps layered?) would be really cool.

29mm
29mm long burn
38mm long burn

I would buy many more small dia. reloads than larger dia. reloads... that's the end of it.

I second TRN's statment I think I read about 25 posts that wanted 29mm stuff. I spend about 14-15 bux on a G77R for the 29/120 case. I would spend 20-25bux on a 29/240 G or H skid ANYDAY! I am a mewly minted MPR/HPR flier. I will have my JRL1 soon. I would like to fly some AMW stuff but ist cheaper to buy single cases for my 29mm and 38mm stuff than a full bulkhead, snap rings, and case setup EVERY time for AT. That is one thing that would be nice too. Sell the cases by themselves that should cut 20bux out (taking away rings and bulkhead)

Like many said, that ASKED what we wanted.

thanx, Ben

How about some G motors for people who aren't L1 certed. Maybe even a skid in the F range!

Originally posted by jj94
How about some G motors for people who aren't L1 certed. Maybe even a skid in the F range!

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don't push it I think a G range 29mm HPR skid would come in 5 years. some 29mm I's would be a nice start

thanx, Ben

green with sparks!

oh god please green with sparks!

Heh...

Somehow, I guessed you would ask for the ultimate knob nate

I agree - that would be AWESOME

Originally posted by ben
don't push it I think a G range 29mm HPR skid would come in 5 years. some 29mm I's would be a nice start

thanx, Ben

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Yeah, you're right. I'm just so envious of people who fly motors from AMW. I've seen pics of them and they look fantastic. Now I really wanna fly some, but I'm not certed. But I do have to agree, 29mm loads would be nice for a start.

Originally posted by jj94
Yeah, you're right. I'm just so envious of people who fly motors from AMW. I've seen pics of them and they look fantastic. Now I really wanna fly some, but I'm not certed. But I do have to agree, 29mm loads would be nice for a start.

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well that is to bad I only have to deal w/o a cert till next april HEHEHE

thanx, Ben