$300 for valve cover gaskets?

My mom (who is going to be 84 this year BTW) has a nearly pristine 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Estate Wagon. She has had this oil leak for the last year that has gotten worse. Her Mech said it might be a rear main seal leak and I sort of went along with it since her son (me) can sometimes slip his nose into his mothers business when he shouldn't .
Anyway, the leak got worse. Alot worse. Like 2 quarts in ten miles worse So, off to the mechanic for a belly scrub and a check up. She called me up Thursday and said she had heard from the mechanic and he said it was only the valve cover gaskets. I was relieved.
Well, yesterday I saw the bill. Among other work she had done, they charged her about $360 to replace her valve cover gaskets. (Ejection stage..POP)
In my haste, I made the mistake of comparing her car to the 1969 Chevelle I had when I was a kid. Run to NAPA, set of gaskets, $6.00. Took me about 30 minutes, less if I didn't feel like adjusting the lifters.
Then I looked under the bonnet of my mothers "Queen Mary". I had forgotten what a pile of hoses it really was under there. There was more stuff on that motor than scales on a Bluefish! After taking stock in just what the mech must have had to take off and put back on, I closed the hood and looked at my mom standing there with the bill in her hand. "They must have made a mistake mom, they should have charged you alot more!"

It is my fervent belief that the big American auto makers have designed their cars so that we don't have a chance to work on them.

When our fuel pump went bad I found out the dealership wanted just under $1000 for a new one (it's located inside the fuel tank and integrated with some other junk). I thought my hearing had gone bad. Even going to an off-brand car parts store and getting the part at half price, and using a friend (ex dealership mechanic) at reduced rate, a new fuel pump still cost me over $500. This for something that SHOULD have cost more like $20 or $40, and should have been accessible for me to change out by myself.

And they wonder why we are buying Japanese and German and Korean cars.

i think gallager said it. "the mechanic tells you a price. it sounds o.k. you can live with it, then they add the labor!!"

i was a "mech-a-nic" for chevrolet and then jeep 20 years ago or so, i got out of it because cars were getting harder and harder to work on and they were giving away better and better warrenties (less pay for the mech.) seems these days they build cars so the robots can assemble them cheap and easy (and fast) and dont care one bit how they are to work on.

I just replaced the heads (both cracked) on our ford exloder. took me a wekend to tear down and another to put them back together. i could have done this on my chevy truck in a day.

heck my dads new trailblazer got a nail in the sidewall of a tire.(;ess than a year old ) not repairable. $220 for a new one. i remember the first set of tires i bought for my 76 chevelle i paid less than $100 for all four installed. nowadays the recycle fee is approching that.

thats why i only buy older cars anymore. the new ones arent worth the money and aggrivation.

I'm usually not afraid to tackle things concerning most cars, but when it comes to major repairs on newer cars, it just isn't worth the hassle.

You usually don't get warranties when you do the work yourself. It's worth the extra money to have someone else be responsible for making the right repairs.

I would rather change out the starter on my '67 'Cuda than tackle anything major on any of the 'newer' cars out there.

BTW my 'Cuda has headers and anyone who knows A-body Mopars know how difficult it is to get the starters in and out.

So that's another thing I have that will take up some of my precious weekend time.

So - less time for rockets, I guess...

Originally posted by redraindrop
SNIP! I would rather change out the starter on my '67 'Cuda than tackle anything major on any of the 'newer' cars out there.

BTW my 'Cuda has headers and anyone who knows A-body Mopars know how difficult it is to get the starters in and out.

.....

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HA! My first (hand me down) car was the 69 Fastback cuda...that was great....At least you could see everything on them old birds...As I recall with the stock 318 there was just enough room to swing an open end wrench but then maneurvering the starter body itsself in or out was hellacious...I also stopped repairing my cars in the '90s pretty much...I'm all for the warranty service nowadays. Hard to tell what's what anymore under the hood...crawling around on a garage floor has somehow lost it's appeal...That said my neighbor is "narrowing down" 2 Triumph TR4s into 1 and I helped him swap a good hood onto the good running one a couple of weekends ago...It was a blast.

Andy

My first (hand me down) car was the 69 Fastback cuda...that was great....At least you could see everything on them old birds...As I recall with the stock 318 there was just enough room to swing an open end wrench but then maneurvering the starter body itsself in or out was hellacious...

You used the right word there!! Seems like alot of room to maneuver in that big wide-open engine compartment, but it seems like you scratch your knuckles with every turn of the wrench while turning those header bolts.

All in all though, I would much rather bloody my knuckles on my American-made musclecar than on any other type!!!



...That said my neighbor is "narrowing down" 2 Triumph TR4s into 1 and I helped him swap a good hood onto the good running one a couple of weekends ago...It was a blast.

I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head there. It is just plain FUN to work on an older car, whether it's a musclecar or a small sports car. With these newer cars, there just is no fun factor anymore.

Planet Andy, Sorry on that last post. ''

I tried to quote you, but I must not have done something right, because it's all jumbled together.

I'll get the hang of this yet. '' Sorry again.

Originally posted by powderburner
It is my fervent belief that the big American auto makers have designed their cars so that we don't have a chance to work on them.

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It's not just a belief, it's a fact. I have read interviews with senior executives of the big auto manufacturers stating it is their goal to put the shade tree mechanic out of business through the design of their cars. The quotes were along the lines of "There is just too much money to be made on service to allow the average owner to do his own work".

What a BS price no way it cost that much.

I wouldnt stand for that.

Originally posted by SARocketMan
What a BS price no way it cost that much.

I wouldnt stand for that.

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I wouldn't be surprised. To do a tuneup on my old Ford Aerostar you had to unbolt the engine mounts and let the engine/tranny down with a jack in order to have enough room above the engine to get the distributor cap off. What a B.S. way to design a car.

I don't even want to think about what that would cost in a dealers shop.

As I told my son when he complained about spending $8,000 to buy his car...

"Don't think of it as an $8,000 car. Think of it as $35,000 worth of spare parts on wheels..."

Originally posted by powderburner
It is my fervent belief that the big American auto makers have designed their cars so that we don't have a chance to work on them.

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Ever replace the battery in a Corvette? For many model years you have to pull the fender - great American engineering!

$300 for valve cover gaskets, and you figure the gaskets themselves were the $10-15 Mr. Gasket variety. I rebuilt the motor out of my dad's Town Car four years ago and I remember the valve cover gaskets were just over $100. And that only covered the gaskets themselves.

As far as working on cars goes, I've enjoyed working on Hondas as much as anything else I've been into. They've been easier to work on the any American car I've owned. ('78 Trans Am, '82 F100, '85 Cadillac Fleetwood, '90 Cougar, '93 Probe GT) As long as dropping the engine off of a mount doesn't phase you, Hondas aren't so bad to work with.

Originally posted by redraindrop
Planet Andy, Sorry on that last post. ''

I tried to quote you, but I must not have done something right, because it's all jumbled together.

I'll get the hang of this yet. '' Sorry again.

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you'll get the hang of it it's no problem... that.
Well also think about that those cars late 60s MSRP was about $5000 as opposed to $15-$20,000. The costs of everything has inflated throughout our lives and people's time value has also inflated. As for the cars, Everything is synced up to a computer somewhere onboard today...Mechanics need to know and incorporate other skills requiring expensive technical training. I have no idea what is under a hood anymore. That said it seems to me like you get a lot more mileage before any major repairs today as long as you do the scheduled oil changes and maintanance. That good' ol 318 went through several sets of valves, piston rings, and stuff every 50,000 miles or so even with proper maintanance...And of course if you're doing the valves you'd be doing the cover gaskets anyways. But some people, and it's their choice, their right and also to their advantage lease a new car every 2 years barely enough to break em in. I'm more old school and keep my cars for the life of the car pretty much. I don't wanna get into a foreign/american debate here however my Dad just bought a new Magnum...I have to say I am pretty impressed and he's so thrilled he can have something shaped like a station wagon again!

planet out

My first car was a '68 Mustang GT.

With a 390.

Shoe-horned in is a understatement....

Good friend of mine had a '68 Shelby Mustang with a 428.

Same nightmare.

Oh, he STILL has his....

Ever replace the battery in a Corvette? For many model years you have to pull the fender - great American engineering!

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When did mechanical engineers lose there mind and start building things like this ?

it's not just the American automotive manufacturers. I used to do all my own work. with my old (mid-1970s) RX-3s I could pull the motor (Wankel rotary), rebuild, and reinstall in a weekend. on the RX-8 there's no way to change the oil filter without making a mess, so leave that for the mechanics at the dealer. they must have three elbows or something.

cars must be designed for manufactureability instead of serviceability, but it is really hard to see how exactly.

Originally posted by SARocketMan
When did mechanical engineers lose there mind and start building things like this ?

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Don't get me started. Not that I've ever owned one but the ZR-1 Corvette with the LT-5 engine has its starter motor in the "vee" between the cylinder heads, under the intake manifold. It was common for water to collect in there and corrode the starter motor. You have to take half the engine apart to change it. Duhhh.........

Originally posted by cls
it's not just the American automotive manufacturers. I used to do all my own work. with my old (mid-1970s) RX-3s I could pull the motor (Wankel rotary), rebuild, and reinstall in a weekend.

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In terms of serviceability, the Wankel could only be topped by the air-cooled Volkswagen engine.

Cars aren't designed with service as a very high priority. At least not as high as manufacturing efficiency and costs. Lot's of things on vehicles don't make sense unless you are looking at it from the viewpoint of how it's assembled on the line. If a bolt will be easier to install with a torx driver, then it'll be a torx even if all the other bolts on the assembly are hex head. When you understand that the vast, vast majority or repair work is done by shops these days, making it easy for the shadetree mechanic isn't even close to the top of priority list.

it's not just the American automotive manufacturers. I used to do all my own work. with my old (mid-1970s) RX-3s I could pull the motor (Wankel rotary), rebuild, and reinstall in a weekend.

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Nice any photos ?

Down here we've have a lot of RX-3's(well not a lot, but a lot in comparison to the US)

Originally posted by SARocketMan
When did mechanical engineers lose there mind and start building things like this ?

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When the consumer started demanding more and more performance with more and more convenience (you know - small things like A/C and power brakes). Think about it - there is so much hardware on an engine nowadays with all the systems built into them and all the computers, and there's only so much room in an engine compartment. Not to mention that now you're also dealing with the fact that it's a transverse mounted engine with a transmission underneath it because everyone wants front wheel drive. It's gotta go somewhere...

$300 for the valve cover gaskets seems a bit high, but not highway robbery. My wife's minivan (talk about a cramped engine compartment...) recently blew a head gasket (don't get me started...bought it brand new, head gaskets went bad at 55,000 miles...), and it cost $1800 for that nifty little repair job...

Originally posted by Zpoxy
Don't get me started. Not that I've ever owned one but the ZR-1 Corvette with the LT-5 engine has its starter motor in the "vee" between the cylinder heads, under the intake manifold. It was common for water to collect in there and corrode the starter motor. You have to take half the engine apart to change it. Duhhh.........

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i worked for chevrolet when they first came out, chevys answer was to replace the engine anytime anything went wrong on a zr1. mostly because it was a brand new engine. the techs wanted to tear the engine apart to find out what went wrong. i'd say i replaced 3 zr1 motors in the first year of production.

of course pulling the motor was easier than changing the starters.

Down here we've have a lot of RX-3's(well not a lot, but a lot in comparison to the US)

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I haven't seen any RX-3s on the road for maybe 5 years, even here in CA where rust is less of an issue. in fact the last time I saw an RX-3 was in Christchurch, NZ, a couple years ago. wanted to talk but couldn't catch him

In Aus you get the Cosmo with awesome 13G 3-rotor engines! There are a few in the US but it's all hush-hush, they aren't really legal. I guess all those 1990s Cosmos are getting old now, too.

In 1992, I BUILT a 1964 Corvair Spyder. I brought the body home on a trailer: no wheels, suspension, motor, interior, etc. It came with a whole pile of parts, and it took 4 trips filling up a full sized pickup truck bed to bring them all home. Over the summer I built the car: motor, tranny, transaxle, gas tank, rear supension, front suspension, new clutch, new brakes lines, gas lines, all new brakes at the wheels, custom interior, dashboard gauges, etc. I was driving by July. By the winter, I left it at a MAACO for two months and they painted it for me. Total cost: less than $4000.00.

Now, I cannot even change the oil on my new Mini Cooper.

Phred

In Aus you get the Cosmo with awesome 13G 3-rotor engines! There are a few in the US but it's all hush-hush, they aren't really legal. I guess all those 1990s Cosmos are getting old now, too.

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So any photos ?

Yeah 20B TT.

If you want to find every RX3 owner in Aus this is the place.

https://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/forums/index.php

Chrysler 1996 Town and Country Mini-Van LXI- two weeks ago- Dealer replace a/c evaporator-step one- remove dash- Cost: $1328.00

This week- a/c compressor clutch apparently slipping-burnt up clutch coil- I purchased a replacement compressor at Oreilly Auto Parts- $309.00 with tax...I installed it- works great. I have had lots of refrigeration experience and been in the field since 1968.

As bad as all that this is the worst- I went to a Chrysler dealer to get o-rings for the suction and discharge line where the lines fasten onto the compressor. Get this, two o-rings, small little pieces of round rubber- total cost $23.00.

I guess that is the cost of staying cool in Kansas.

To all those with big repair bills, I feel your pain.

$750 to replace the fuel pump (in the tank, naturally) and it would have been almost $1000 to replace the intake gaskets (covered under warranty, thankfully) on my 2000 Grand Am. When you open the hood all you see is the intake manifold and air filter. To get to anything you have to start by removing parts. I need to change the serpentine belt. but it requires the engine mount to come off first...

Looking under the hood of my truck is like looking back in time... the good ol' GM 350 sits there, space all around it. Starter, alternator and A/C are all easy to get to. I can change the plugs without having to sit on top of the engine. When it's time to retire the Grand Am, I think a second truck may be in order...

Originally posted by Loopy
When the consumer started demanding more and more performance with more and more convenience (you know - small things like A/C and power brakes). Think about it - there is so much hardware on an engine nowadays with all the systems built into them and all the computers, and there's only so much room in an engine compartment. Not to mention that now you're also dealing with the fact that it's a transverse mounted engine with a transmission underneath it because everyone wants front wheel drive. It's gotta go somewhere...

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Bingo! We have a winner!

Don't blame it on the engineers. They are working under a set of priorities and design constraints set by corporate management (cost, manufacturability, schedule), marketing (styling, size), and government requirements (safety, fuel economy, emmisions). Customers, in general, don't make their buying decison based on servicability, and servicability by shade tree mechanics (which includes me, 'cept I don't even have a shade tree to work under) is definitely not even on the corporate radar screen.

A lot of the mechanical engineers in the automotive industry are "car guys", too, which is one reason they work in that industry, and they aren't any happier with the trade-offs that have to be made that sacrifice servicability than you or I are.

Actually, I am guilty of creating a decline in servicability on my own car. I have a '55 Chevy 4-dr wagon, which I bought in 1997 to use as a daily driver (that's right - a '55, not a '95). I wanted something fun and different, and easy to work on. When I got it, it was almost stock chassis-wise except for a replacement engine and tranny. Well, let me tell ya, when you drive a stock 40-year-old car around on a daily basis, you start appreciating some of the more modern conveniences such as A/C, power brakes, power steering, overdrive automatic transmissions, and cruise control. Now my '55 has all those things, and it is a lot more pleasant to drive, but there's a heckuva lot more stuff under the hood than there used to be! It's still the big car it always was, so it's not nearly as crowded under there as a modern car would be, but then, it doesn't fit into the small parking spaces that are found in parking lots these days, either. And it's a lot noisier than any modern car, too. I can still work on it myself, but it's a bit ironic that I've gone backward on one of my original priorities. And I'm a mechanical engineer!