Apogee Medalist long burn motors

I got the E-Zine from Apogee and it said the E6's and F10's were back in stock. The long burn time sounds really great, but the max liftoff weight seems to make it so you wouldn't be able to witness the results.

Has anybody managed to do anything besides lose rockets with these? I was wondering about if a 12-14oz rocket could be kicked up to speed by clustering 2 B's or C's, then kept at a safe speed by a core E6...but that would also mean cross type clustering which I guess is sketchy.

I've seen ones recovered before. Those motors have fairly high initial thrust spikes, so you can keep rockets to ~2000 or so without need for outboards to get up to speed.

I have flown the F10 in the Apogee Aspire three times. It is sims as a mile high flight. You can hear the motor well after it disappears from sight. One flight was spotted on descent, another came back a few hours later and on the third, the rocket was returned to me a month later. The F10 is a very interesting motor. I tried to insert the igniter like other motors. After much frustration, I discovered it is an end burner.

Thanks,

Greg

I've heard of people even flying Aerotech Initiators on the F10-4's and getting about 1500 feet.

I flew an F-10 a few years back in a scratch built minimum diameter bird. Yeah, I lost it, but it was still way cool.

Are they really back in stock??

woot woot !!

I have to ask all european vendors to import them

i love em!
i've sent my slightly modified (29mm MMT is all) Cherokee D clone up 3 times on F10s and a Goblin clone with the same 29mm mod.

i still have them, but the balsa nosecone of the goblin was burned away when i recovered it.

weird.

Originally posted by 10fttall
I got the E-Zine from Apogee and it said the E6's and F10's were back in stock. The long burn time sounds really great, but the max liftoff weight seems to make it so you wouldn't be able to witness the results.

Has anybody managed to do anything besides lose rockets with these?

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There are ways of limiting the altitude without adding weight. Drag, for instance. You can build a light, draggy rocket that works well with low thrust off the rod but is quite draggy and thus stays fairly low. Some drag increasing techniques include using an extra wide body tube, increasing the fin span and adding a shroud (cone) near the aft end. All these add drag without adding lots of weight.

Also, using Rocksim, you can design a more conventional (ie, 3FNC) rocket that, with a long rod, will fly on low thrust motors as well as conventional motors. Here's one I did for the Apogee D3: https://home.flash.net/~samily/tvm The key is to keep tweaking the design until you get good rod speed and stable flight. Just try not to add an extra 100g of paint

Doug

I put a D3 in my Art Applewhite 18mm Hourglass.

That thing had like a 6 second burn which made for a very interesting and a very cool flight.

I would eventually like to try the E6 in my 24mm Hourglass.

These are really cool motors, I just wish they were louder though, the D3 wasn't any louder than an Estes 18mm motor, maybe even a tad quieter.

I got to launch 1 of the "E"s in my streched Stormcaster and a friend of mine launched 1 of the "F"s in his Aspire. Lost the Stormcaster in the woods but he got the Aspire back. They are cool motors, but I prefer White lightning

I'll be flying these two rockets on E6-8's this weekend. The Gremlin has already had 2 flights on that motor, it gets to around 3500'.

https://www.squirrel-works.com/misc/IMG_0825.jpg

Originally posted by 10fttall
I got the E-Zine from Apogee and it said the E6's and F10's were back in stock. The long burn time sounds really great, but the max liftoff weight seems to make it so you wouldn't be able to witness the results.

Has anybody managed to do anything besides lose rockets with these?

Click to expand...

I used to fly my Estes Challenger II model (D12 booster for Astrocam) with E6-8s out at Lucerne. Still have the Challenger but it's retired.

Ok, ok, I see I should have been more specific.

I'm talking about projects that are recoverable from an adequate but average field. The high drag is a good idea I hadn't considered yet.

Has anyone ever flown a Quest Superbird or Icarus with the D3 or the D10? How about a Big Bertha or Big Betty. I think it would make for some very nice flights. May have to pick up a couple and give them a try.

I just wanted to bring this thread back up for discussion because the Apogee F10 motors interest me. I have been doing some checking and it looks like the maximum liftoff weight of these motors is 6-8 ounces depending on the delay selected. It looks to me that an Estes Mean Machine modified with a 29mm motor mount would work with an F10. It seems like that rocket would be easier to track and go lower than an Aspire so it should be more easily recoverable. Anybody launch a rocket in that 6-8 ounce range on an F10? Just looking for more projects this winter and this one sounds interesting.

Back around '85 or so I did fly a stock Mean Machine (well, did add a 29mm MMT) on an F10 for a perfect but weird flight. Talk about a sloooooooow but long boost!! Of course, it didnt go out of sight but still quite up there....

Also wound up putting an F10 into a glider I had made for such back in 86. After a few D12 test flights to ensure straight boosts, up and away on the F10. 8 seconds after liftoff a 300 in sq glider was a speck in the sky, and Im not sure what the F BG record was but that had to have been it.

Might have to do one of those again if I get a decent sized site.......

cdman said:

I just wanted to bring this thread back up for discussion because the Apogee F10 motors interest me. I have been doing some checking and it looks like the maximum liftoff weight of these motors is 6-8 ounces depending on the delay selected. It looks to me that an Estes Mean Machine modified with a 29mm motor mount would work with an F10. It seems like that rocket would be easier to track and go lower than an Aspire so it should be more easily recoverable. Anybody launch a rocket in that 6-8 ounce range on an F10? Just looking for more projects this winter and this one sounds interesting.

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It would work, but remember that the loaded lift-off weight will be pretty close to 9 ounces if not 10 ounces after painting.

You will need ZERO wind and a 6 foot long steel launch rod that is 1/4" diameter to allow it to build up a safe speed. REASON: Peak thrust is lower than D12 peak thrust. OK, it is similar to the E9 motor (peak and sustaining), so your biggest problem is that it will weigh at least an ounce more than the E9.

I would just fly the Mean machine with an E9 and burn a $20 bill and "pretend" I flew the F10 in the Mean Machine.

Now, if you want to fly any of the other F motors that cost less in the Mean Machine you can have a lot of fun. You can get smoke, color, etc.

The F10 is a competition motor and kind of expensive for most people to just use on sport flying or throw away models.

The F21 Econojet is a direct fit replacement for the E9 motor and can still be found at some hobby shops. We had a TARC team buring them up in practice models last weekend and I've got a bag full of them.

A 24mm RMS will also fit perfectly and offers a large variety of motor choices.

I've ignited one of the Medalist motors with an Astron Igniter after the supplied igniter(s) failed repeatedly.

Thanks for the replies so far guys. Good points Fred. I forgot about the weight of the engine. I am now thinking of doing a scratch build like the mean machine but without the plastic coupler and about a foot shorter to get down to that 6-8 ounce loaded range. I do use a 1/4" 6' steel rod but rarely have zero wind so I need to get the weight down. I know the F10's cost alot, but I was just thinking of trying to get a low "safely" slow flight out of a Longer Burning motor as something else to try an do.

I think the F10 will get your bird off the pad more quickly than the D12. The F10 peak thrust (23 N) is almost instantaneous (~ .05 s), whereas the D12 (30 N) takes about .25 seconds to reach peak thrust. But I don't have rock sim so I can't say for sure.

https://www.nar.org/SandT/pdf/Apogee/F10.pdf

I want to get one to use for a night launch rocket. The long burn would be real cool, even if the rocket itself was never seen again!

Hummm, I just ran a Sim on a Semroc SLS laser X with an F10 and it came out at about 2200 ft and a six second delay. Oh, the temptation, since my son has a built, but yet unpainted one on the rocket shelves. It even has a safe simmed take off speed of 53 ft per sec off the rail.

MarkH said:

I think the F10 will get your bird off the pad more quickly than the D12. The F10 peak thrust (23 N) is almost instantaneous (~ .05 s), whereas the D12 (30 N) takes about .25 seconds to reach peak thrust. But I don't have rock sim so I can't say for sure.

https://www.nar.org/SandT/pdf/Apogee/F10.pdf

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According to RockSim:
D12 - Minimum velocity for stable flight reached at: 60.6165 In.
E9 - Minimum velocity for stable flight reached at: 77.5484 In.
E6 - Minimum velocity for stable flight reached at: 58.4878 In.
F10 - Minimum velocity for stable flight reached at: 44.6291 In.

I've flown a Mean Machine on both an E9 and an E6 (as well as D12's), and it definitely lifts off fastest on the E6 (though still slow). Wonderful motor for that rocket. An F10 would be absurd (in a good way)

Tucker5246 said:

Has anyone ever flown a Quest Superbird or Icarus with the D3 or the D10? How about a Big Bertha or Big Betty. I think it would make for some very nice flights. May have to pick up a couple and give them a try.

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The D10's are a great motor, and will kick a Big Bertha up, so a Big Betty will fly They have a nice flame on them.

As for the E6's and F10's the Estes Executioner(?) (old Maniac), with the plastic fin can, flies really well on them. I get them back.

cdman said:

Thanks for the replies so far guys. Good points Fred. I forgot about the weight of the engine. I am now thinking of doing a scratch build like the mean machine but without the plastic coupler and about a foot shorter to get down to that 6-8 ounce loaded range. I do use a 1/4" 6' steel rod but rarely have zero wind so I need to get the weight down. I know the F10's cost alot, but I was just thinking of trying to get a low "safely" slow flight out of a Longer Burning motor as something else to try an do.

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I used to fly the Custom Equinox on 24mm F12 RMS motors, and that has a slightly lower peak thrust than the F10. The flights were always straight and high. Nothing like the extra 5 seconds of thrust you'd get from the F10 though. I think the "olde style" Mean Machine would be fine on the F10, since that's about what the Equinox was.

OK, for this Mean Machine F10 combo to work properly, you *MUST* fly it in front of me.

No doubt right now I would rather fly it in front of you Fred! We have 10" of snow and it was -13F out this morning here. I assume it was a little bit nicer this morning where you are! This will be a winter build and I will wait till it gets above freezing to launch. Although I do have a snowmobile as a chase vehicle!!!

cdman said:

No doubt right now I would rather fly it in front of you Fred! We have 10" of snow and it was -13F out this morning here. I assume it was a little bit nicer this morning where you are! This will be a winter build and I will wait till it gets above freezing to launch. Although I do have a snowmobile as a chase vehicle!!!

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https://www.weatherunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=irwindale,+ca

Good thing we don't have a launch scheduled this weekend. The weather will be brutal.

They look like really nice motors..I have 1 each of the D motors(3,5 and 7 sec delay) and one E6-6..Just wish they weren't so expensive....

cdman said:

No doubt right now I would rather fly it in front of you Fred! We have 10" of snow and it was -13F out this morning here. I assume it was a little bit nicer this morning where you are! This will be a winter build and I will wait till it gets above freezing to launch. Although I do have a snowmobile as a chase vehicle!!!

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Is Lake Wissota frozen yet? Bet it makes a great launch site about Jan-Mar if you can stay away from the ice shack villages.