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DerekDRP

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Hi everyone, I'm interested in joining a rocket club and to start in the big boy rocket's the one's where they are taler then you and you need to make your own fuel. I'm aware that I will need a special license to launch such a scratch built unit. That be all right though.


Ok I live in Traverse City Michigan and their is no rocket club, But their is a gentleman who is willing to help and allow me to build a big kit in his garage.


Help would be appreciated and thank you.
 
Learn everything you can, and start out small. Visit the online sources of information and find a group nearby and attend some launches (see the NAR and Tripoli web sites, maybe even look for a Canadian club if it is close). I would build and fly about a half-dozen low power rockets Then move up to mid and high power. You do not need to make your own fuel to fly big rockets, although some people like to do this (called experimental or EX). You can buy motors up to size N, more than enough to fly a rocket much taller than you are. (You can fly a 6 foot tall Estes Mean Machine on a d12.)

Jim Norton
Tripoli 10203 L2
 
Originally posted by Jimn
Learn everything you can, and start out small. Visit the online sources of information and find a group nearby and attend some launches (see the NAR and Tripoli web sites, maybe even look for a Canadian club if it is close). I would build and fly about a half-dozen low power rockets Then move up to mid and high power. You do not need to make your own fuel to fly big rockets, although some people like to do this (called experimental or EX). You can buy motors up to size N, more than enough to fly a rocket much taller than you are. (You can fly a 6 foot tall Estes Mean Machine on a d12.)

Jim Norton
Tripoli 10203 L2

Wow they still make a mean machine? And canada would be a bit far to drive.
 
Originally posted by sandman
LOL!

Somebody needs to look at a map!:D

The nearest club to you isn't that far. It's in Kalkaska.

https://www.kalkaska.us/AerospaceClub/index.html

Go to the site for more info. I'm about 180 miles away so I'm no help. Although the last posting was in April. Good luck.

I feel stupid now *egg on my face* But every time I asked about the club in Kalkaska no one seemed to know where it is and if it's still up and running. Thank you sir.
 
Originally posted by sandman
LOL!

Somebody needs to look at a map!:D

The nearest club to you isn't that far. It's in Kalkaska.

https://www.kalkaska.us/AerospaceClub/index.html

Go to the site for more info. I'm about 180 miles away so I'm no help. Although the last posting was in April. Good luck.

Oh yeah if you happen to look at the photo's it's mostly a kid's club. I don't want to be a sore thumb and stick out of the crowd. You know?
 
Originally posted by DerekDRP
Hi everyone, I'm interested in joining a rocket club and to start in the big boy rocket's the one's where they are taler then you and you need to make your own fuel. I'm aware that I will need a special license to launch such a scratch built unit. That be all right though.

Ok I live in Traverse City Michigan and their is no rocket club...

I don't know where that is, but Tripoli Rocketry Association has three local clubs in Michigan, so maybe one them might be close enough to help. They are listed here:

https://www.tripoli.org/prefecture/prefusmi.shtml

There are commercially available motors (H through O sized motors) for larger rockets. This is known as "high power rocketry" and there are various regulations and restrictions governing it. To begin with, you must be certified by either Tripoli or the National Association of Rocketry in order to buy and fly high power motors.

Certification is fairly easy, if you can get a sanctioned launch. There are three levels of certification, and at the first level all you have to do is successfully fly and recover a rocket using an H or I motor. (You're allowed to buy one for certification purposes.) The flight must be witnessed by a Tripoli "prefect" (local club president); or by any NAR member who is level 2 certified (if you cert through that organization). You must be a member of the national organization with which you are planning to cert. In your case that will most likely depend on which one has launches close enough for you.

Such large rockets also require special approval from the FAA, called a "waiver". Anyone can get a waiver, though it depends on where you plan to fly. but most people prefer to fly with a club and let the club deal with getting the waiver. (Not to mention insurance, landowner's approval, etc.)

Then there's the BATFE -- Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. They currently consider high power rocket motors to be regulated explosives requiring a low explosives permit to buy, sell or possess. This is another reason why most folks fly with a club -- they can obtain and use motors under the "supervision" of a permit holder, who is often the local motor vendor. We are fighting the ATF in court over this but until the case is settled we're stuck with it.

Unfortunately all these things make it very difficult to get into the hobby if you can't get to an existing club's launches.

As for making your own motors, that can be done but is also not free of regulation. Homemade motors can't be used at any NAR sanctioned launch. TRA permits them only at "EX" launches, and you must be at least Level 2 certified. You can fly them independently if you have a suitable site and can get the FAA waiver. You may also have state or local regulations to contend with -- many states treat homemade rocket motors as restricted or illegal fireworks unless you have a pyrotechnic operator's license.
 
Originally posted by Ray Dunakin
I don't know where that is, but Tripoli Rocketry Association has three local clubs in Michigan, so maybe one them might be close enough to help. They are listed here:

https://www.tripoli.org/prefecture/prefusmi.shtml

There are commercially available motors (H through O sized motors) for larger rockets. This is known as "high power rocketry" and there are various regulations and restrictions governing it. To begin with, you must be certified by either Tripoli or the National Association of Rocketry in order to buy and fly high power motors.

Certification is fairly easy, if you can get a sanctioned launch. There are three levels of certification, and at the first level all you have to do is successfully fly and recover a rocket using an H or I motor. (You're allowed to buy one for certification purposes.) The flight must be witnessed by a Tripoli "prefect" (local club president); or by any NAR member who is level 2 certified (if you cert through that organization). You must be a member of the national organization with which you are planning to cert. In your case that will most likely depend on which one has launches close enough for you.

Such large rockets also require special approval from the FAA, called a "waiver". Anyone can get a waiver, though it depends on where you plan to fly. but most people prefer to fly with a club and let the club deal with getting the waiver. (Not to mention insurance, landowner's approval, etc.)

Then there's the BATFE -- Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. They currently consider high power rocket motors to be regulated explosives requiring a low explosives permit to buy, sell or possess. This is another reason why most folks fly with a club -- they can obtain and use motors under the "supervision" of a permit holder, who is often the local motor vendor. We are fighting the ATF in court over this but until the case is settled we're stuck with it.

Unfortunately all these things make it very difficult to get into the hobby if you can't get to an existing club's launches.

As for making your own motors, that can be done but is also not free of regulation. Homemade motors can't be used at any NAR sanctioned launch. TRA permits them only at "EX" launches, and you must be at least Level 2 certified. You can fly them independently if you have a suitable site and can get the FAA waiver. You may also have state or local regulations to contend with -- many states treat homemade rocket motors as restricted or illegal fireworks unless you have a pyrotechnic operator's license.

Thank you Ray, All I want to do is build a semi to big boy of a rocket see it launched, I'am more interested of the mach flight's I saw on discovery a while back. They where running a documentry about hobby rockets and I took a liking to the big gunz if you will.


On side note note question? will their be a certified rockiteer who could launch my rocket if he / she had time?
 
Originally posted by DerekDRP
Thank you Ray, All I want to do is build a semi to big boy of a rocket see it launched, I'am more interested of the mach flight's I saw on discovery a while back. They where running a documentry about hobby rockets and I took a liking to the big gunz if you will.


On side note note question? will their be a certified rockiteer who could launch my rocket if he / she had time?


As far as I can tell, you don't want to learn how to build a large rocket. There is a whole lot to learn. Are you willing to take the time? Also there will be a whole lot of money to spend. Do you have that much money to spare? If you know what you are doing, you will be able to launch your rockets yourself.

Some of the things you will nedd to know before launching a big rocket:

Ignitors and motors

Fiberglassing

Electronics. Large motors don't have ejection charges. Recovery must be done with altimeters or other electronics. Very high altitude flights usually require dual deployment.

Design. While there are a few very big kits, most large rockets are scratch built.

Parachutes.

Not trying to discourage you, but you are not ready. It is like a 16 year old who just got there license saying that they want to hop in a race car and see how fast it will go.
 
Originally posted by Jimn
As far as I can tell, you don't want to learn how to build a large rocket. There is a whole lot to learn. Are you willing to take the time? Also there will be a whole lot of money to spend. Do you have that much money to spare? If you know what you are doing, you will be able to launch your rockets yourself.

Some of the things you will nedd to know before launching a big rocket:

Ignitors and motors

Fiberglassing

Electronics. Large motors don't have ejection charges. Recovery must be done with altimeters or other electronics. Very high altitude flights usually require dual deployment.

Design. While there are a few very big kits, most large rockets are scratch built.

Parachutes.

Not trying to discourage you, but you are not ready. It is like a 16 year old who just got there license saying that they want to hop in a race car and see how fast it will go.


No problemo. I need all fo the advice I can get thanks a bunch.
 
how old are you? you have to be at least 18 to get certified to even be able to use large motors like what you are thinking about. to give you an idea of how long it takes to be able to do big rockets, ive been involved in rocketry for about 4 years, now im 14, and the largest rocket ive launched was a executioner on a F21 (also a richter recker(7.5ft tall) on 3 e's).
ive gotten pretty good at building rockets strong, but i still have a LOT to learns, trust me.
when people start something new, they always want to get a taste of the extreme side of the hobby at the beginning, which is fine, just go to a launch and watch the high power rockets there. Then, go out and buy a small rocket and take your time building it well, launch that one a couple times, go get another rocket, launch it, etc. and a couple more. then when you have experience with small rockets, go out and buy an estes executioner if you want something big (estes' biggest rocket). if you manage to build that one strong and well, go launch it on a E. Then, get an Aerotech or a LOC, those are very good mid power rockets, and build and launch those well on F's and G's. By the way, completing the steps in this paragraph should take at least a year if used properly, lol.
once you have experience with mid power rockets, your over 18, and you have money (lol) go out and buy a PML. Become a NAR member, and then you can buy a H or I motor to certify level 1. once you certify level 1 you can build and launch H and I motor rockets (this is where rockets start getting BIG).
after that level 2, then hopefully within a good 10 years youll have your level 3 and youll be able to launch 20 ft. tall rockets that weight 100 lbs.
PHHEEEWWWWW! that was a lot of typing.
good luck, and remember, start small , and work your way up, or you will find yourself completely lost and broke.
 
You should remember that at any launch where you can fly a large rocket, there's going to be a Range Safety Officer who makes the decision about whether or not your rocket can fly. If it's something that you put together without learning first how to build 'em, you're not going to get the chance to fly it.

You should definitely attend a high power launch before you begin your large project, and in fact you should definitely build and fly some mid-power rockets before you go to HPR. It'll greatly increase the chances not only that your rocket works, but that you get to fly it at all.
 
Originally posted by DerekDRP
Thank you Ray, All I want to do is build a semi to big boy of a rocket see it launched, I'am more interested of the mach flight's I saw on discovery a while back. They where running a documentry about hobby rockets and I took a liking to the big gunz if you will.

Well, how big a rocket do you want to build? At Level 1, you can use only H and I motors. An I motor will put up a pretty large rocket, but certainly not the biggest of the big. The very largest rockets require a Level 3 cert and mega bucks worth of motors and hardware.

I've built 4" diameter rockets 7-8 feet long that could easily fly on an I motor. Is that big enough for you? Someone new to high power could build and fly a rocket that size without difficulty, at relatively minimal expense (motor deployment, no electronics).

At the extreme end of the scale are rockets such as the giant scale model of the Soviet N1 rocket that was flown at PlasterBlaster in early October. It was 23 feet tall, nearly four feet wide at the base, three stages, and 42 motors. It costs thousands of dollars and required the use of a fully-equipped shop and was built by a team of people. A custom, welded steel launch platform was also built to handle it.

Some other extemely large rockets I've seen required special scaffolding or even a crane to set them up. Obviously, such major projects are beyond what a newbie could accomplish -- in fact they are usually beyond the means of any single individual, which is why most (if not all) of the largest projects have been a team effort.


On side note note question? will their be a certified rockiteer who could launch my rocket if he / she had time?

If you just wanted to build a single large rocket and fly it one time, it might be possible to arrange to have another flyer prep and launch it for you. Your best bet would be to attend a launch, get to know some folks, and build and fly some mid-power stuff first. If people don't know you, and/or they think you don't know enough to build a safe high power model, they'd be less likely to help you fly it.

Most folks in this hobby are friendly and helpful to beginners, but they are also safety conscious. Especially in these times when we are heavily regulated and scrutinized by public agencies.

BTW, you can fly some fairly impressive rockets on a G motor, which doesn't require certification or FAA waivers. I haven't simmed it, but I bet you could build a 2.6" diameter rocket 8 feet long that would be light enough to fly on a G80. Or a shorter 4" diameter rocket.

Whatever you decide to do, I highly recommend attending a high power launch if at all possible. You can learn a lot from seeing what others have done, talking to people, etc. There are often on-site vendors who can provide tubes, kits, motors, etc.
 
Originally posted by Jimn
Some of the things you will nedd to know before launching a big rocket:

Ignitors and motors

Fiberglassing

Electronics. Large motors don't have ejection charges. Recovery must be done with altimeters or other electronics. Very high altitude flights usually require dual deployment.

Design. While there are a few very big kits, most large rockets are scratch built.

Yeah, the biggest stuff is almost always scratchbuilt, and requires fiberglassing and electronic deployment. On the other hand, if he just wants to do the largest rocket he can at Level 1, there are plenty of kits he could buy, no fiberglassing would be necessary, and motor ejection is commonly available.
 
Originally posted by Ray Dunakin
Yeah, the biggest stuff is almost always scratchbuilt, and requires fiberglassing and electronic deployment. On the other hand, if he just wants to do the largest rocket he can at Level 1, there are plenty of kits he could buy, no fiberglassing would be necessary, and motor ejection is commonly available.

Wich kit sir? Becuase i wouldnt mind starting at lvl 1 and get a cert for lvl 1 then work my way up tot he cert where their is only 400 people who has the licance. then again I may not like rockets.

Thank you guys
 
how old are you?!?!?
not to be rude, but you cant just start at level 1, trust me.
and you cant just zip throught the levels like you think, level 1 is just flying a rocket. With level 2 and level 3 you also have a hard written exam that you have to learn a lot of rocket science for.
 
you're over eager...you should take all the energy that you're focusing on high power, and turn it to mid power. its much the same concept, and while the rockets are smaller and less expensive, the motors are still very loud and very impressive. have you ever built a rocket before? i started 6 years ago with an estes wizard, its a low power kit that flies on 18mm motors. that's probably the best kit i've ever built, because it tought me the basics of building a rocket. from stability, to shock cord mounting, to parachute...etc...and it RIPS on a C6-7. if you're serious about getting into HPR, start with low power, because if you jump straight to HPR you're not going to know what you're doing in the way of building, and you're going to shred a really big rocket going really fast and hurt someone. check out LOC once you're confident in your building skills, www.locprecision.com they've got great MPR kits. i made the transition to MPR after 5 years, meaning, i hadnt flown anything bigger than a D12 until last october, just over a year ago. since that time i've built and flown close to 10 mpr kits and i've built and flown my HPR kit(on a G80) which i'll be certing on in 2 weeks or next spring...depending. it all takes time, and lots of money...if you take your time and do a nice job on a rocket, you'll be complimented and ultimately, it'll fly better, and be more durable. but to get into HPR, you need to know some science behind rockets. or else you're going to screw up, and hate the hobby, not to mention, waste a lot of money in the process.
 
Derek,

Eager is good!

We don't want you to think we're picking on you but we just don't want you to get into trouble. You are a welcome addition to this forum.

To begin with we need some more information about you.

1.) Have you ever flown a model rocket before?

2.) If so what type and motor size and where? (school, scouts, camp...etc.)

3.) Do you have any other rocket buddies or friends interested in flying rockets. This is important 'cause if there is no local club maybe you can start one. Besides, I hate flying alone! Somebody needs to hold the camera!

4.) I am assuming you are in school (middle or high school?) then ask your science teacher. Chances are he's flown model rockets as a boy. You might even get him "re-interested". (Note see BAR in the definitions.:D )

5.) Another twist to get your science teacher interested look into TARC "Team America Rocket Challange". Go here for more information

https://www.rocketcontest.org/

THAT is a real challaging and fun aspect to the hobby...oh yea...and educational.

6.) Finally please, do this...please...

Read as much and as many of the old posts in this forum...there is a TON of information!

Then go here

https://www.info-central.org/infocentral.shtml

There is ANOTHER ton of information!

Print pages for future reference, bookmark sites...have fun, learn, be prepared then...

Go here!

https://www.rocketreviews.com/

Look up a few kits see what looks "cool" to you. Find out what others thought of the one that looks cool to you...how hard was it to build? Was it worth the money?...you know what I mean...

Then we'll talk some more.:D
 
I think it's great that you are this interested in getting into this hobby, however, you're really rushing things. You saw something really cool on Disovery and thought "I want to do THAT" before realizing the amount of time, effort and skill involved. As others stated you can't simply jump into High Power Rocketry. It's just not that simple and for good reason -- SAFETY. Not only are there certification procedures to launch HPR, but there is the age requirement that outasight13 briefly mentioned. You have to be 18yrs old to purchase or fly any motor over "G". Likewise, with Tripoli you are not eligible to certify Level 1 until you are 18 so you are limited to A-F), which can still give cool performance in the right rocket. NAR has a Jr. Level 1 program, which allows members 14-17 to certify Level 1 with adult supervision, meaing you need to find a senior NAR member (himself Level 1 or greater certified) willing to purchase your motors, help you assemble them, and take responsibility for the flight. You can't attempt Level 2 or 3 certification until you turn 18 -- for either Tripoli or NAR. From your other posts, it doesn't appear like you have built a single rocket, yet want to launch as "big as you can." It just doesn't work that way. Take the suggestion of others, try some low power kits from Estes or Quest. They can still be fun and enjoyable and, more importantly, they teach you the basics of rocket deisgn and construction. Then, step up to larger rockets with larger motors. Learn from others the more advanced design concepts and construction techniques, especially when considering a Mach-capable rocket. Talk to people about the hobby, most of us are friendly and willing to help others get into it and teach them what we know and what we've learned from experience. Keep in mind that this hobby is meant to be fun, but our #1 priority is safety and that's reason of all the "restrictions" put in place. It's also important for you to enjoy the hobby, from building to launching, whether it be the low power Estes kits or something larger. To just get into the hobby for the sake of seeing a large rocket on a large motor fly is not the right approach. You can attend launches as a spectator for that. I hope we haven't discouraged you from getting in rocketry, but perhaps even given you ambition and a 'goal' to strive for in this exciting hobby. Keep us informed.
 
Originally posted by DerekDRP
Hi everyone, I'm interested in joining a rocket club and to start in the big boy rocket's the one's where they are taler then you and you need to make your own fuel. I'm aware that I will need a special license to launch such a scratch built unit. That be all right though.


Ok I live in Traverse City Michigan and their is no rocket club, But their is a gentleman who is willing to help and allow me to build a big kit in his garage.


Help would be appreciated and thank you.
Just a comment to the moderators: Shouldn't this thread be moved to the Coffee House or somewhere else other than Advanced Topics?
 
You saw the discovery channel show, yes? That said 400 people have L3. Sorry to disurage you, but you cant just start at L1, or even mid power (E-G). You need to start with some small $10-$20 rockets you find at the hobby store. Build/fly a lot of these and then get into the mid power rockets. Then when you are ready a small H or even a large I motor can be used for the L1. Jr L1 can be done at 14 but no electronics can be used till 18 (really no BP can be used but it is tough to use electronics without a black powder charge, but most H-I and even J-K motors have ejection charges built in). You seem to have just seen the TV show and said, I wont to try that. It is expensive. Those "mach busting" rockets can cost hundreds of dollars and can cost a lot per flight. Even a mid sized (10' tall, 7.5" diameter) rocket can cost over 1 thousand dollars, and several hundred per flight. I would build a few estes or quest (low power rockets) and bring them to a club launch. Then talk to people about it, show them what you have done, fly yours rockets, and maybe if they think you are ready you can pick up a small E-G powered rocket or two and build them for the next launch. Keep flying some larger/more complex E-G powered rockets and then eventually you will get into HPR. How old are you??? I am 14 myself and fly off my dads L2 with him, I have to save like crazy to fly my big birds (most expensive is $300 a flight) and most of mine are over $50 a launch so if you are not really into it or dont have enough $$$ to spend (or dont want to spend that much) flying may not come cheap at all to you, even with the small 38mm H-J motors for $15-$50. Just go to some launches, look at kits, watch someone prep a reloadable motor (low power is %90 single use, there are some reloadable motors, MPR is about 50/50, in HPR there are some SU motors but due to extreme costs the majority of flights are with reloadable motors, or as some people/companies call them, RMS. They have a reusable casing with some internal parts (different companies have different designs or styles for casings) and you purchase the fuel/o-rings/liners and other small parts that go in the casing, then after the flight you clean out the casing and throw away the reload kit, you keep the metal/graphite parts. Rockets like the big daddy and the nike smoke (large rockets on the TV show you watched) can cost over 1000$ per flight.
 
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