Fin Alignment

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AKPilot

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Am getting ready to do my Nartrak Bronze Level on Wednesday, and am for my two stage am going to use an Echostar.

What the general opinion, out there, on fin alignment. This thing has twelve of them; so do you align them all up straight for aerodynamics, or do you stagger them to ensure enough lift?
 
You can interdigiate the fins (there's your nickel word of the day) to get more effective fin area if you want, this can help the rocket fly straighter. With something like the Echostar I don't think that's a problem. The main thing is to make sure fins up at the top are straight. I think this rocket has slots and tabs to help with this, right?

kj
 
Originally posted by zog43editor
. . . interdigiate the fins . . . I think this rocket has slots and tabs to help with this, right?

kj

I just had to do it, so I looked up "interdigitate" in my concise Oxford dictionary (sorry Webster). I'm probably not getting the right mental picture, because it was defined as "interlocked like clasped fingers". But I think I got the answer from when you stated that with the Echostar is shouldn't really matter. I'll probably just align them up straight down the tube.

As for the slots, I remember one section having them, but can't honestly recall if any of the other eight had slots. I believe I had to align them by hand.
 
Originally posted by zog43editor
You can interdigiate the fins (there's your nickel word of the day) to get more effective fin area if you want, this can help the rocket fly straighter. [Snip]
OK, what does Interdigiate mean in this context. I can guess but rather not.

Harry Stine says to stagger the fins on each stage so they are more effective. Looking down from the nose cone to the tail, you see 8 fins not four (For the Echostar).
 
Okay guys, let's not show ourselves up . . . the word is spelt "interdigitate" - two "t"s.
 
This ain't the half of it! My wife is from England and I'm, originally, from California.

Can't tell you how many times we've, playfully, argued on who speaks English. Ever try to convince a teacher in the states that it's okay to spell the abbreviation for mother as "mum"? Then again, how about "tyre", "colour", or "aluminium".

Then of course there's the 4th of July, or as she calls it, "the Colonial insurgency".
 
Originally posted by Mike_BAR
OK, what does Interdigiate mean in this context. I can guess but rather not.

Harry Stine says to stagger the fins on each stage so they are more effective. Looking down from the nose cone to the tail, you see 8 fins not four (For the Echostar).

That's exactly what it means in this context.
 
I've always lined them up, and never had a problem with stability. It really shouldn't make a difference though - you have the same fin area either way, and less drag if they're lined up.
 
Whether the fins are aligned or not on the various stages of your rocket probably does not matter nearly as much as many people think, at least for the average rocket.

You would very probably achieve better performance from your overall rocket design by using a good airfoil shape in your fins and by taking the time to achieve a smooth exterior finish. In fact, if you are worried about fin arrangement and you are *not* using a good airfoil shape, you can probably stop worrying right now about any alignment impact whatsoever. Square fin leading edges and trailing edges are a certain way to get separated, turbulent airflow from the start, making it a rather moot point whether fins are aligned.

All following comments assume that you have diligently and uniformly rounded all your fin leading edges, tapered all your fin trailing edges to a thin line, and used fillers/primers as well as paint to create an aerodynamically smooth surface (like all good little rocketeers do?).

I believe the perceived benefit of aligning fins is to reduce turbulence and drag (profile drag, specifically). While this may be true (to some extent), achieving this benefit would require nesting of the lower stage fin leading edge *very* closely behind the upper stage fin trailing edge (basically, LE in contact with TE). Not all rocket designs lend themselves to such fin configurations. Further, airflow around preceding fins will unavoidably build up a boundary layer region (stagnant flow at the fin surface that builds in thickness from front to rear) that separates after the boundary layer reaches certain limits. Nesting and aligning all your lower stage fins may only result in those fins following through the shed vortices from fore-bodies, reducing the effectiveness of the lower fins and reducing stability.

If the lower stage fins are aligned with upper fins but are separated lengthwise by some physical distance, the aerodynamic benefits of reduced drag go away very quickly. Airflow will ‘recover’ behind the trailing edges of preceding fins just in time to present 99% of freestream-equivalent airflow to the leading edges of following fins (especially if you use a nice airfoil shape in your fins). You will not have avoided any profile drag components of the lower stages. You might as well intersperse the lower fins, since you will pay most of the drag penalty, as long as this arrangement does not interfere with fitting your rocket on a launcher.

I believe the perceived benefit of not aligning lower stage fins with upper fins is to present all fin surfaces to ‘fresh’ airflow for maximum fin effectiveness. To get the maximum benefit of this fin orientation you should (theoretically) reduce the planform size of lower fins because they will be working so effectively. However, since kit manufacturers cannot depend on us to use this fin alignment each and every time, they must design the kits for the ‘worst case’ condition (aligned fins in turbulent flow that are less aerodynamically effective) and we end up with commercial kits having full-size booster fins and giving no credit for any aerodynamic elegance.

The long-and-short of it: unless you have a high quality wind tunnel and a few hundred hours of spare time to conduct testing, you are probably not going to see a difference in performance due to fin alignment. You *will* achieve a measurable performance improvement if you airfoil the fins, give them a smooth surface finish, use small and clean root fillets, and build the rest of your rocket well too.
 
Originally posted by cjl
I've always lined them up, and never had a problem with stability. It really shouldn't make a difference though - you have the same fin area either way, and less drag if they're lined up.
I believe your observations are true, but the fins are more effective when interdigitated.

With the fins lined up there is more drag on the lower stage fins.

"This puts the lower-stage fins in the wake, downwash and vortex pattern of the upper-stage fins and greatly reduce their effectiveness." p. 170, Handbook of Model Rocketry, 7th edition, by G. Harry Stine.

If Harry Stine says so, then I believe him.


Hey KJ, I never noticed that Harry Stine used the word "interdigitated". cool stuff... :cool: :rolleyes:
 
play with rocksim on fin placement. You would be surprised what fin placement can do to a rocket in general. I built the Quest Tomahawk. The fin placement was somewhat critical cause i took a c engine rocket and modified it to fly on a 24mm engine. Ill let the pics speak for themselves on how the placement worked out see pic below.So look at it from many angles before poxing those things down permently. CAuse you may make a dire mistake that could cause some kind of unwanted reaction with your rocket.
 
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