Saturn V wraps

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

TheRadiator

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2003
Messages
909
Reaction score
0
Has anyone who has built a Estes Sat V have trouble keeping the vacuform wraps in place while spray adhesive dries?

I used painter's tape (7-day variety) on the seams of the wraps, only to have a wrap peel up, as well as all 3 wraps on the 3rd stage pop off. At this point I may go a little gonzo with the spray adhesive, and use regular masking tape. Thanks!

It's my first Sat V..... I don't want to screw it up too badly!

EDIT: errr.... or should I say it's the kind of rocket that gets better and better each time you build it! :)
 
I used Weldwood Contact Cement on mine. It comes in a small bottle with an applicator built into the cap. This is the same stuff contractors use to apply Formica laminate countertop material and it is STRONG!

Test fit the wraps several time untill you are ABSOLUTELY sure the fit is perfect!!! I cannot stress that enough.

Have everything ready and at hand...and I mean everything you will need hand but not in the way.

Mark the location CAREFULLY and test fit it several more times.

When you are absolutely positively sure it's right...check the alignment and placement ONE MORE TIME!!!

Now...when you are ready...apply a thin even film of the contact cement to BOTH surfaces and let them dry for about ten or fifteen minutes untill they are just barely tacky.

Ready?? OK then...You only get one shot at this!!!

Once the two glued surfaces touch glue to glue they are DONE and will probably destroy the wrap if you try to pull it back up.

Start at one edge and BE SURE it's square before you stick the part on more that 1/4" or so...any more and your in trouble because it WILL NOT give you another chance.

If you are careful it will roll on nice and flat and stick really really good!

I built mine about 5 years ago and not one corner is lifting up yet.

If you do screw it up and destroy a wrap contact Estes Customer service with the exact wrap you need (the part numbers are in the instructions)...they won't give you a whole set all at once but they will give you the ones you need.

Good luck!
 
Weldwood Contact Cement. :eek:

Got some right here, but I was worried it would melt the plastic. But considering your experience over mine as well as your craftsman skills, I'll give 'er a shot, and post pictures when I'm done with one or two.
 
Totally agree with the Weldwood Contact Cement. On Gordon's Little Joe II, this was the bomb for keeping the wrap solidly attached.

One note on the after-effects/preperation for painting/finishing.

Let the model set for 24 hours after attaching the wraps, then use a tac cloth (you can get them at Lowe's and Home Depot) and wipe the wraps and body down.

I discovered that the Weldwood can roll up between the seams, and its a very sticky substance, so tac cloth the model, and with VERY clean dry hands - i.e wash then dry- then feel the entire model with your eyes shut. By doing so, you can feel those areas of the model that might have residue.

The clean dry hands have less oily residue on them which allows the fingers to "feel" the model better.

Cheers and best of luck. 8)
 
very timely topic. My bits and pieces are up on the kitchen table and I was about to start my S5. Thanks guys.
Cheers
Fred
 
I cut my wraps exactly as indicated in the instructions and they wound up about 1/4 inch too short. I had a lot of problems with lifting, so I CA'd the edges and then epoxyd them (epoxy filled the gap also). Then I went over the seams with squadron green. I think it will look OK when it's done (especially from the distance to launch pad) - but definately the most difficult model I have ever built.
 
Hi Skidoo,
I am modifying mine for five engines. I have built cluster before but this looks to be challenging. Just as a question are you canadian with that moniker?
Cheers
fred
 
The tips brought forth so far using contact cement and other adhesives are great, but IMHO, Do the best you can, don't worry if it doesn't look good on close inspection. Paint hides a lot of mistakes. My philosophy is... make it look good from 10 feet away... the up part is easy, get it back so you can fly it again.
It's still supposed to be fun ... right??????
Mark NAR27793L1
 
Thanks Silverleaf!

I'll make a trip to Lowe's this morning to get some tac cloth. I know there's a little residue on it after the failed spray adhesive attempt.
 
Rad,

Glad I could help 8)

Please keep us posted on your progression, and as Vinnie, Speed and Knuckles will tell ya, post pics....;)
 
Hi Snuggles,
At this point for me you are definately right. Still one can aspire to do better. I built by my standards a beautiful renegade and it staged beautifully. Where the upper staged landed I have no idea. makes you wonder.
Cheers
fred
 
Whilst I agree that the analogy : " do the best you can " is completely spot on for any project you do, I've found these tips will help any modeler have better finished results.

*****
The basic idea is to finish building the rocket completely - following the direction that come with the kit/scratchbuilt project, and when done, let her sit for a day or so to thouroughly let the glue/epoxy/CA dry. Once thats done, you can move on to Prepping the rocket for painting:

NOTE
I build mostly scale kits, so the procedures listed here will help you to complete a quality looking scale design, and can certainly help your sports/fictional designs look and perform better.


Nosecone:

IF Balsa - Use fine sand paper and lightly sand the nose cone - this is just to make it smooth, and prepare it for the sealer step.
On some larger nose cones made from Balsa, you may discover that hitting it with a thin coat of Great Planes Wood Glue or Elmer's White Glue, letting it dry, then sanding it again before the sealing step helps make the nose cone stronger and less likely to bend/break.

IF plastic, trim off the mold lines and sand them smooth. IF NEEDED - fill with Squadron Green or White putty and sand smooth - some kits have really bad or old molds they use, so you'll want a smooth look, with no discernable lines sticking up.

Body tube/Airframe

1) If the seams are very deep - that being the thin wrap line that runs in a spiral all the way down the airframe, fill all seams with Elmer's Fill-n-Finish , then sand smooth, you might have to repeat if the seams are deep. The idea is to have a smooth tube, with no visual seams.

2) Some tubes have seams that tend to crack if older, so you can fill these with Squadron Green or White putty if needed to supplement the Elmer's Fill & Finish.

Fins

Same basics apply for Balsa and Plastic fins as with the nose cone, but just make sure your fillets are completely dry, and smooth before moving on to painting.

I highly recommend letting the fins dry for 24 hours after creating the Fillets. In the long run, this extra drying time helps solidify the glue joints and makes for a stronger finished rocket.

Sanding Sealer, Primer and Paint

RULE #1
Always try to use the same products from the same company - if you use Testors for everything, then continue to use that as you progress throughout the various coats in the rocket. Why?


Less chance of having a reaction between coats - which can lead to wrinkles, melting of paint, or worst of all, the paint refuses to dry properly- if at all. IF this happens, well, your looking at stripping off all the paint, and restaring over. Trust me, it will happen at least once to you, and when it does you'll know to be more careful the next time.

When all else fails, and you can't match all the sprays together..use a test piece of balsa and plastic and see how the paints react. Well worth the trouble to do this in advance.

Sanding Sealer

RULE #2
Always use a Sanding Sealer first to seal balsa or any type of wood thats on your rocket. It helps seal the pores in the wood, and gives the following coats of primer and paint a better base to be added and gives a smoother finished look.


On the off chance you just wish to seal and not paint, sanding sealer works fabulous followed by a gloss, or flat clear cote.

So, following this rule, seal the cone, attached fins and any other porous wood surfaces first. Then let dry, and hit with a second light coat and repeat the drying. Then sand the wood lightly, and repeat sealing if you wish. I do this on the airframe because it helps prep for primer.

Primer

RULE #3
However good, or bad the primed coat looks when your done sanding, thats how the finished top coat will look. Period.


A grey or white primer is next on the finish list. Why?

Your going to spray the entire model with the same color and let her dry. From there, you can check the model and see what needs to be sanded or in the case of those seams on the airframe we worked on earlier - you can see exactly where any problems are.

Sand the model smooth and let her sit for a bit. Close your eyes, and slowly run your fingers all over the model, letting your touch guide you to the problem spots.

Make sure your hands are free of dust and are clean. I've found that before doing the touch test if I wash my hands, I feel the surface better and can detect problem areas.

When done, hit her again with the Primer, and repeat till perfectly smooth.

REMEMBER:
A finish coat can not hide scratches, bumps etc. - and even with 4 or 5 coats, it still doesn't help. So, take your time and make the primed coat the best you can, smoothing, filling (with Testor's or Signal Green or White putty) so it looks sharp.

Paint

Rule #4
3 or 4 light coats are better than 1 heavy runny coat. Let the coats dry for 30 minutes before spraying the next one, so that your not creating pockets of tacky paint under a new cote, as it can cause wrinkles etc.


1) IF you have access to an airbrush you can use either Testor's enamal (thinned) or go with Acrylics.

Spray cans work just fine if:

1) Make sure the can is shaken soundly for 2 to 3 minutes. That can help ensure most globbing will be avoided.

One tip for paint can users, when you buy a new can at the store - make sure you shake it to ensure that little agitation ball is in there BEFORE you buy it. Some clear coat flat paints do not have the agitation ball, but most every other paint does to help stir up the can.

If that ball isn't in there, get a different can.

2) Invert the can when you get done to clean the nozzle for about 10 seconds. This helps on the next use to prevent globbing right away.

3) Almost to the letter, every cans directions says " Shake for 10 seconds for every minute of use " - Do this without fail when covering larger areas. It helps keep the contents shaken, and again can help prevent splatter.

4) Spray only 6 to 8 inches away from the model ( any further away and you risk the paint starting to dry before it reaches the model. IF this happens, you'll have a splotchy appearance, which can lead to resanding etc.

But when you do spray... do it in quick sweeps. Example:

Say your painting the fins - start spraying about 4 inches to the right of the fins, across them, and finish the pass about 4 inches beyond - this keeps the spray from drying before it reaches the surface of the model. You should see a light sheen of wetness when the pass is made.

Too close and you risk having the paint run, which can kill a finish.

5) Finally, ensure that you don't shake the dickens out of the can and start spraying right away at full blast, remember a can is like a car's engine, it needs time to warm up, so spray away from the intended target for 3 to 10 seconds to help clear her throat..so to speak.

6) IF you plan to paint in colder weather, bring the cans of spray paint indoors, so it and the model are at the same temperature. You will have to work quick, which in the case of a cool climate means pre-shaking the can to warm her up, and having your model masked ready to go - and then spraying accurately and quickly.

7) Cold weather spraying works well for me with finished coats, and primers. I tend to wait till warmer days - or build a fire in the fire place when I do the finished coat. Less chance the finish will dry cloudy.

Decals

Apply all decals once the rocket has dryed for a couple days - do not rush to decal until you can hold the rocket/model to your nose and not smell the paint odor. If you can, your rocket needs to dry for another day or 2 in a room temperature climate.

1) Use Microscale Liquid Decal Film and brush it on your decal sheet - NO MATTER if its a homemade decal set, or ones from professional kits. This toughens the decals up and makes them easier to adjust once added to the rocket.

2) Fill a bowl with warm 65-70 degree water, and add a few drops of dish soap. When you add the decals, the soap will help them slide a bit easier on your model as your placing them.

3) Dip the decals in the water by attaching it to a pair of tweezers that auto-grasp (on the corner of the backing sheet - NEVER on the decal itself). Then let the decal set for 10 to 15 seconds, remove from the water and place on a soft towel. This lets the decal loosen from the backing sheet.

OPTIONAL: IF your working with simple decals, I tend to drop them in and let them set in the water with the tweezers attached, then slowly remove them, dabbing at the corner of the decal to remove excess water with a soft tissue, Q-tip or dry brush.

NOTE:
Never put more than one decal in the water at a time. You might have a problem with the decal your working on, and forget about the soaking one. Which in its own right isn't bad, just that its a pain to get it out once it seperates from the backing sheet.

4) Use Microscale Microset and brush a thin coat on the area where the decal will live.

5) Apply the decal, sliding it into position and once your positive of its placemement - blott away the excess water with a Q-Tip, or a small dry brush.

Then brush on a light coat of Microscale Microsol on the decal. DO NOT touch it at this point, as the chemical will start to soften the decal, and make it "mold" to your model. You may see wrinkles on the decal as it starts to change, but this is normal and will dissappear as it dries.

NOTE:
On very large decals, like on the Quest Tomahawk, you may want to do them in sections, cutting them precisely in half/quarters to make the process easier.

All these steps will help ensure the decals mold to the model, and give them that painted on look.

You want a crash course ?

1) Go buy a cheapo plastic model (that has a lot of markings on the box art) and practice attaching the included decals till you have it down.
2) Buy some Plastruct/evergreen sheeting, buy a set of "generic decals" from Phred (Astronboy) at Excelsior and practice.
3) Check Ebay for decals to use to practice. Estes did a set of 4 packs of Standard Decals as well.

All these steps will help ensure the decals mold to the model, and give them that painted on look.

Finish

After the decals have dried for a day or so, hit her with a finish coat.

1) IF you want a scale look, a dull coat is best, because no extra shine will reflect off the bird, thus giving a crisper and cleaner look.

2) If you want the bird to reflect in the sunlight, use a gloss coat.

3) Some people use Future Floor Wax after applying the decals and letting the model dry completly for 24-36 hours. Its a good product to use and all results I've heard say that the finish tends to be a bit stronger to scratches and the like. I've yet to try Future, but will do so soon.

Finally, I use DEFT Lacquer Sanding Sealer, American Tradition Primers and Paints made by Valspar - both are available at Lowes. When you compare the price to Testors - a small can of Testors is over 4 bucks at the local Hobby Store, and these are under 3 bucks for cans 3 times the size.

My finish coats is American tradition Satin and Flat clear cotes.

I've tested all of these together, and they work very well, with a finish thats as smooth as glass.

*****

Cheers,
 
Thanks Silverleaf. All very sound advice and I am printing it as i type this.
Cheers
Fred
 
Just a question about the Deft Lacquer Sanding Sealer. Is this stuff for wood only, or do you hit the body tube with it as well?
 
Originally posted by sandman
I used Weldwood Contact Cement on mine. It comes in a small bottle with an applicator built into the cap. This is the same stuff contractors use to apply Formica laminate countertop material and it is STRONG!


What Sandman says to do is exactly what was recommended in the original Centuri Saturn V kit. My kit in early 1969 even came with a little bottle of Weldwood in the box (later versions of the kit, and kits like the Orion that used similar plastic wraps, came with little rubber capsules of cement)
 
Rad,

Unless i'm doing a complicated compound fin, I always attach the fins first to the airframe, then spray the entire model with the Deft Sanding Sealer.

It works well to seal balsa fins, and a couple coats can make seams almost invisible.

Cheers,
 
Well guys, good news and bad. One is I put on some wraps on the main body tube last night with the spray on glue and it worked very well. No peeling or anything. The bad news is the upper wrap is to close to the end of the tube. I thought about setting it on fire at first but then decided maybe I could reposition the wrap. That spray on stuff works very well though and I am afraid i may screw up the wrap and tube if I attempt to remove it. I may just carry on and hope no overly critical saturn engineer shows up to my launch. Is there a way to safely remove one of these wraps once that 3M dries? I am thinking now that a five cluster saturn five was a little beyond my skill level but there it is. I must admit I am a trifle envious when I look at some of the marvelous creations on this board and see my own efforts. I am not a BAR but came into the hobby now . Experiance is a great teacher I suppose. Oh well I used up my whine quotient for the month.
Cheers
fred
 
How close is too close ? Are we talking millimeters here, or inches ?

IF its millimeters, "maybe" you can cut it back the required amount.

I know you don't want to hear this, but your only viable option might be to contact Christine at Estes and explain what you did. At worst, she'd sell you a new wrap and the airframe tube you need, at best you'd get a free replacement. No promises obviously, but its worth the toll-free call...

800-525-7561 X 216
 
Hi Silverleaf,
Well pal I think cutting it back is not an option. It may not be perfect but I think I can make it look half decent. It's all a learning experiance. I will call Christine but if I spend one more nickel on rockets in the next little while she who must be obeyed will probably throw soemthing large and heavy at me. At worst she has been dusting off Steel magnolia's and saying it's about time we started to watch a few dramas on the tube. I love Rocketry but some sacrifices are too hard to bear.
cheers
fred
 
Fred,

Lol, that Steel Magnolia line cracked me up !

Maybe you need to treat her to one of those mystery dinners where you all roleplay and guess who did it. Then while she's distracted, you slip away, claiming belly cramps, and call Christine..*wink, wink, nudge, nudge*
 
No doubt it is a great movie but I usually take gravol before something like that. I have decided to move things a little. Not only were the wraps in the wrong place but the tunnels do not line up. I will cut off the tunnel parts and place them where they should be and I will take an aproximately same sized chunk where I am placing the tunnel thing and put it in it's place.
In as regards to sneaking out during dinner she would know. Whenever i try to pull a fast one she knows. I don't know if everybodies wife is like that but mine is. I think she must be a distant relation to the amazing Kreskin or something. By the way silverleaf do you still have that Titan you mentionned in the coffeee house? It looks like a great rocket and i could see where a fella might wax a little nostalgic over that one. I never got to do rockets as a boy because feeding seven kids was a little expensive accordding to my parents.
Cheers
fred
 
Fred,

In 1989 I went to Arizona for 8 months, as part of the road trip from he**, and when I returned, my den had been over taken by my mother's crafts.

I didn't think about the Titan for a few weeks, but when I did I started a frantic search. No Titan. It was in perfect shape when I left, sitting up on a shelf, on a display with a pic of the real thing. I looked up at the shelf, and shuddered...

There was a single nail, bent at an awkward angle. So after asking/demanding my mother tell me where it was, she simply said, Oh that.. We threw it out. I screamed Why ?..

She said sheepishly, I knocked it off and it fell down the stairs, broke into a lot of pieces.

I was heartbroken.

Believe me Fred, If I had the extra 150, that kit would be mine in a heartbeat. Though the Sandhawk is my favorite rocket, the Titan from MPC is my favorite kit.

*sigh*
 
Well, I attempted Sandman's method, only to find that my Weldwood had gone bad. It didn't spread evenly, it had congealed. My younger brother swung by this evening. He built his Sat V using the "Spray adhesive applied to both surfaces" method. He isn't the craftsman that sandman is, but I thought I'd give it a try and see how things turn out in the morning. Though I will buy another bottle of Weldwood at lunch tomorrow. Here's the wrapper on now. However, I'll need to clean up the BT a little. Nothing rubbing alcohol and a little patience can't fix. :)

The blue tape you see in the photo is to prevent adhesive from going where it shouldn't be. I've cleaned up this body tube a few too many times already!

P.S. Sorry for the yellow tint to the photo. I'm still trying out new options on my camera. :eek:
 
Radiator...no one will know the difference...

Even if they did, only an *##%(@ would say anything and we all know what HIS opinion is worth.

You have bigger things to worry about.

You have to paint that GAWD awful roll pattern yet!

Silverleaf,

My wife sold my original K-36 Saturn V in a garage sale for $5.00 and was very proud of herself.:mad: She couldn't understand why I gave her the cold shoulder for a week.

At least I got $5 out of it.
 
Originally posted by sandman

My wife sold my original K-36 Saturn V in a garage sale for $5.00 and was very proud of herself.:mad: She couldn't understand why I gave her the cold shoulder for a week.

At least I got $5 out of it.

This has got to be the most painful post I've ever read here!
 
She argued with me with logical reasons why she sold it and why I didn't need it any more...I just gave her LOOKS...I had absolutely NOTHING...NOTHING to say...

Oh, yea...she also sold my Estes Pheonix missle in the same sale. I never even flew it!

:mad:
 
Holy mackerel guys those are harsh stories. One of my wraps came unpeeled so I guess i will try again tommorrow. Good luck rad with yours. I did not do the weldwood thing becuase i was scared i would screw it up and not be able to fix it. Guess what i did screw it up but I think i can make it acceptable. Hey rad were you setting a high ASA(ISO) on your camera with no flash. Lots of grain generally means high ISO. Yellow means it was using the room light which i would guess was tungsten bulbs.
Cheers
fred
 
Before I married, I made it known that the rocket collection was absolutely off-limits! So far, my wife has respected that, however, she is a little ticked at the size of my fleet at the moment. I think it's mostly because it's outgrown our apartment. We'll (hopefully) be buying a home this fall, and that should rectify the problem when I actually have a garage! :D

Fred,

Yup, I was using room light. The flash reflects a little too well off of anything white. So the first pictures I took were unusable, because I used the flash. I'm still learning to use this camera, so it may have been high ISO. I'll break out the user guide tonite, and find out! I've been using trial-and-error with this camera, because I don't have to spend money on getting photos developed! :D
 
If you want let me know the camera type and i might be able to provide some hints.
Cheers
fred
 
Back
Top