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Originally posted by illini
Yup, I agree. What I was trying to compute was a reasonable 1/2 caliber boat tail with 9 degree slope for some kind of controlled test. Frankly, we have some conflicting pieces of information that I'm not sure how to reconcile.

You also seem to have conflicting results from Rocksim. It no doubt is following some algorithm which may be quite different from either of these, and we've no reason to suppose it's any more correct than one or both of these. Unless of course each is "correct" based on its own assumptions which aren't shared.

I'm just thinking out loud here. Again, just working from concept, but I find that useful, particularly when confronted with a situation where an authoritative word finds itself in conflict with another.

I'm questioning the assumption of "tear drop shaped". Looks to me like that's derived from primarily from two dimensional airfoil theory and testing. I'm not convinced that it generalizes to 3 dimensions. A wing has parallel airflow over a surface. There's no parallel airflow in 3 dimensions over the nose or the tail of a rocket.

Nor am I convinced that an elongated trailing edge, intended to move the separation point, where the airflow breaks up into turbulence, the major factor in drag, as far back as possible applies either. There's to trailing point on a rocket, and there's going to be a flat or concave base of some size no matter what else you do, so optimization based on a separation point that never occurs may be misleading. If the point is to pull as much of the airflow back around behind the vehicle, and separation point is irrelevant, the proper shape may be more important than the dimensions.

The forward half of a motor nozzle compresses the flow. Turn it inside out and it pulls vacuum around itself. Half a nozzle has a cubic (S shaped) curve profile. The first half of that is a hyperbolic curve. What happens after the equivalent of a nozzle's curvature reversal on the aft end of a rocket is irrelevant because it doesn't exist, and is replaced by expanding gasses during boost and a slight concavity of the motor nozzle during coast (just thinking here of an Estes type motor, the complex shape of a composite's nozzle being another thing to confound the simple case).

Just going by conceptual stuff it just seems the shape as a truncated ogive, from body diameter to motor diameter, is going to be a more important factor than how long it is, within some fairly wide limits.

And I suspect that a tighter curve is going to be more effective on a finned rocket, due to the effect of the fins tending to direct airflow outward. An effective boat tail will have to fight that.

One of the more popular "common corrections" of science is the fact that a falling drop of water is not tear drop shaped, but rather spherical with a flattened bottom. Some of that (trailing half) shape is due to surface tension, but the rest to optimally fitting into the air flow. Less surface tension, or more airflow, and it'd elongate into an elliptical (you don't see that in a drop because it's at terminal velocity).

The best shape (amount of curvature and length) will depend on at what speed the boat tail most to reduces the effect of drag. That'd change with speed, but of course you can't easily change shape, so you optimize by choosing the one shape that contributes the most across the range of speeds and the amount of time spent within the smaller portion of that range where it helps the most, and regress that down with calculus to the optimum point.

I'm thinking that the best overall performance is going to be pretty much having the nose cone optimal for a rocket's intended profile (both shape and length/diameter ratio) on both ends, the aft truncated for the motor opening, and possibly a bit more blunt if the effect of the fins is to counter the vacuum being pulled by the tail.

That's what I'm thinking anyway. When it comes down to it I think it's going to be an empirical question. Here's what I'm thinking for that: a Baby Bertha sort of bird, built with the motor tube hanging down a ways so that with a boat tail added the end of the motor tube and the hole in the tail cone coincided. Launch it a sufficient number of times without the tail, then glue it on and launch it a sufficient number of times (sufficient N to be determined by the statistical power accumulating which will depend on the variance). Same motor every time of course. Measurement to be time from launch to landing. All flown on the same day to keep envoronmental stuff the same. Streamer instead of chute because chutes tend to foul and tangle, and might need to be replaced with another that even of the same size probably wouldn't have the same characteristics. All that would increase variance. Using the same bird will control for fin irregularity etc. I'd forego controlling for the added weight of the tail just to say that if there's any bias being introduced it'd be contrary to the experimental hypothesis (the tail cones gives higher flights, thus longer air times) rather than for it. Worst that could happen is that increases the N by 1 or 2. To get some generalizability, standardize very little across several designs except addition of a tail roughly like its nose.

Anybody want to do some rocket science? I'll do the stats.
 
fascinating thread!

regarding illini's post above, what exactly is the effect of u-a upstream and how can I calculate it?

is (u-a) effect largest at Mach 0.8?

just for yucks, this is a 1.75" long 3"->54mm boat tail on a 51" (36" airframe + 13.25" ogive NC) x 3" rocket. it's a tail cone really, because the reduction angle is straight, not curved.


in other words, it's too late because I already glued the boattail on the rocket!
 
Originally posted by DynaSoar
You also seem to have conflicting results from Rocksim. It no doubt is following some algorithm which may be quite different from either of these, and we've no reason to suppose it's any more correct than one or both of these. Unless of course each is "correct" based on its own assumptions which aren't shared.
the rest to optimally fitting into the air flow. . . . .

In the article “Design, construction, and flying strategies for achieveing maximum altitude” in #75, on page 3 it states it uses DATACOM.

In another article “determining Rocket Base Drag”, in #103 on page 2 there is a pretty straight forward discussion.

You might want to consider this materiral "Lift and center of pressure of wing-body-tail combinations at subsonic, transonic, and supersonic speeds"
 
Originally posted by DynaSoar
Here's what I'm thinking for that: a Baby Bertha sort of bird, built with the motor tube hanging down a ways so that with a boat tail added the end of the motor tube and the hole in the tail cone coincided.

To simulate the basic 'Baby Bertha' configuration, you should add a piece of BT to extend aft to be even with the end of the MMT.

This piece would then be replaced with the aft fairing to create the alternate config.

Use of the extra BT piece would also help even out the weight between the two versions, and would more closely model the aero effects of how we build Berthas?
 
Originally posted by Polaris
In the article “Design, construction, and flying strategies for achieveing maximum altitude” in #75, on page 3 it states it uses DATACOM.

In another article “determining Rocket Base Drag”, in #103 on page 2 there is a pretty straight forward discussion.

You might want to consider this materiral "Lift and center of pressure of wing-body-tail combinations at subsonic, transonic, and supersonic speeds"

I just skimmed newsletter 103 - at first I was put off that he claimed to be doing Navier-Stokes analysis of base drag using AeroCFD since AeroCFD is an inviscid panel method. But then I went over the AeroCFD specs again, and there buried under "Summary of Features" item 18 was this:

18) Perform base flow drag Cd analysis using a separate Navier Stokes finite element method. Also, determine the effect of rocket nozzle exhaust on base drag Cd.

Gotta admit. I'm impressed that he's got it in there. I might actually have to check out AeroCFD for an up close and personal evaluation (...but wifey! It's for the folks at TRF!).
 
Originally posted by powderburner
To simulate the basic 'Baby Bertha' configuration, you should add a piece of BT to extend aft to be even with the end of the MMT.

This piece would then be replaced with the aft fairing to create the alternate config.

Use of the extra BT piece would also help even out the weight between the two versions, and would more closely model the aero effects of how we build Berthas?

Good point, thanks. And, add a false centering ring to the extra BT so you're comparing a realistic flat aft end vs. a tailed aft end. Essentially a flat bottom tail cone vs. a round bottom.

Very doable.

Not sure yet, but I suspect to even things a bit of weight will be needed on the plastic boat tail. I think a cored plastic nose will weigh less than a BT+coupler+centering ring. If so, no big deal. My scale's not that sensitive, but I can make a cheap and dirty balance that'll work fine.
 
Originally posted by cls

regarding illini's post above, what exactly is the effect of u-a upstream and how can I calculate it?

is (u-a) effect largest at Mach 0.8?

cls,

Don't want to make more out of it than what's already there. u-a is not so much an "effect" as it is a wave speed. Think of the 3 characteristic velocities (u+a, u-a, u) simply representing the speed at which information propagates in a fluid moving at velocity u. There is the fluid velocity, u, at which the whole fluid is moving along. The characteristic u+a says that there is a wave moving ahead of the fluid at the speed of sound. And the characteristic u-a says that there is a wave moving in the reverse direction from the fluid at the speed of sound (think of u+a and u-a as ripples from a rock dropped in a river that is moving at speed u with the ripples moving at speed a relative to the river). The consequence is simply what I said before. For a subsonic flow information can propagate upstream and, because of this, downstream "features" in your rockets can affect upstream aerodynamics. For a supersonic flow information propagates only downstream.
 
so what is the magnitude of the u-a effect? can't do much about u+a, a with tail cone, but what effect does my tail cone have?

for my example rocket, arctan ((3.1" OD / 2.25" ID) / (1.75" cone) ) = 25.9o

yet in the presentation (https://www.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk/aeroxtra/e338drag.ppt page 33), Bray says "The optimum angle is about 9o for subsonic & 6.5o for supersonic applications."

so by the numbers it seems the PML tailcones actually make drag worse! I don't care much because this particular rocket is just a blaster not a low drag thingy. but still ... expiring minds gotta go!
 
Originally posted by cls
so what is the magnitude of the u-a effect? can't do much about u+a, a with tail cone, but what effect does my tail cone have?

Not to dodge the question (although I may tap dance a little here), but it really depends on the overall design. That is, there's no particular equation (I'm aware of anyway) that says impact of base drag on, for example, upstream skin friction is a function of (u-a). Its more complicated than that. Hence the reason most "drag estimators" like RockSim make the implicit assumption that all of the components of drag can be decoupled from each other and treated independently. To first order its not a bad assumption.
 
Polaris

Both of those references are excellent.

The Handbook gives virtually all of the design rule necessary to design any size unguided rocket. I found it several years ago, and have used it at various times since then, but I have not yet printed the 760 page tome.

Bob Krech
 
Originally posted by bobkrech
Polaris

Both of those references are excellent.

I'll second that. I downloaded both...real keepers!
 
I strongly recommend you look at Dr. Derek Brays aerodynamics courses at https://www.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk/aeroxtra/

They are excellent summaries of all aspects of rocketry in an understandable form.

Boattails are addressed on pages 31-33 of https://www.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk/aeroxtra/e338drag.ppt

The optimum angle for subsonic flow is 9 degrees, for supersonic flow 6.5 degrees.

Base drag is reduced by 1/2 if the boattail is 1/2 caliber long. You don't gain much by going beyond 1 -1 1/2 cailbers in length.

Bob Krech
These links are dead. Searching on the site doesn't lead anywhere. Does anyone have them archived so they could be posted?
 
These links are dead. Searching on the site doesn't lead anywhere. Does anyone have them archived so they could be posted?
Not surprising since the forum has been through 2 or more software migrations, umpteen updates, and oh yeah...last post was 18 years ago prior to today.
 
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