Launch Operation

All the rockets I have ever launched have been:

1. by myself
2. part of a tightly controlled demo by me and a few others
3. with a very small club with loose flight operations.

I have never seen a large club at work.
Most of mine are with one of 2 small clubs and the following procedure.

If you are new, fill out a flight card and let the RSO look it and your rocket over.
If not new, fill out a card and give it to the RSO
take it to a free pad and hook it up.
launch when safe to do so.
repeat as needed.

Our club is slowly getting bigger and I would like to learn how flight operations and larger events are handled.
What is done with the cards?
WHat is check in procedure?
When are people free to go out to the pads?
How do you run a safe and fun launch with a minimum of headache?
Is there more paperwork that is helpful or a hindrance?

I'd like to visit some larger launches and see things in person but the nature of my employment makes that a pipe dream most of the time.

The JSC model rocket club site at https://nhrc.homestead.com/ has a lot of good info. Houston is about a three hour drive for you? If you join the club you can fly on the grounds of NASA JSC...

WillMarchant said:

The JSC model rocket club site at https://nhrc.homestead.com/ has a lot of good info. Houston is about a three hour drive for you? If you join the club you can fly on the grounds of NASA JSC...

Click to expand...

I've thought about visiting that club. Its about 4 hours from me. My problem visiting any club is that my Saturdays are usually spoken for. The second saturday for my club and the church seems to get the others.

I read on that site about how things are handled from the flyers' point of view but did I miss something about RSO/LCO? That's what I'm looking for. Do rockets just get assigned to pads based on first come first serve (allowing for power class) or are other things considered?

Here on TRF I've seen vague refferences to some way of sorting the flight cards that sometimes seems to mean after the card is turned in but before the flight (Before the rocket is even put on the pad?), sometimes seems to mean just for during the group of flights a particular rocket is involved in and sometimes seems to refer to something else altogether. Not having been to a big launch, I don't have the context to know what is meant.

I guess I have the impression of some sort of system like goes on in an aircraft control tower where different aspects/phases are handled by different people but (hopefully) more simple.

Here's how we do it waaaay up here in Three Oaks. It's similar to how LDRS and NSL is done but on a much larger scale. I've often thought that there has got to be a way to streamline this process. Kloudbusters in Kansas do it the best that I've seen.

1. Registration. Pay your flight fees here and/or up your membership dues. Get a name tag with cert level on it sign your life away on some liability forms and off you go.

2. RSO Table - This is where you get your rocket checked in by a L2 or L3 individual. Have your flight card filled out LEGIBLY and the rocket completely ready to go minus the igniter and arming the electronics. Once you get a signature you may get in line for the LCO.

3. LCO - This guy makes announcements over the PA and determines when it is safe to launch. At very large launches there will be 2 or 3 people doing this job. Wait in line here for the range to be officially "open." The LCO announces when it is okay to go out to the pads over the PA. Once open head off to the desired pad and load up. Bring your flight card back to the LCO, tell them what pad you are on and he pushes the button with the club launch control.

4. Pad managers - not necessary but at larger launches it is nice to have. These are the people who walk back and forth from the LCO table to the pads. They know what pads have which size rods and rails and where to get more if needed. They also can perform a final safety check to make sure rods are angled in the proper direction ask if the electronics have been armed and help with continuity checks. Kloudbusters had these people at LDRS27 and that was awesome - same thing with WOOSH at NSL this year.

That said, there are different ways to do this. At smaller Michiana launches it is not unusual for one individual to be performing all of the above roles. When there are only 20 people at a launch it really isn't necessary to have all those volunteers just sitting around. Volunteers like to fly rockets too!

-Dave

John

The typical CMASS launch setup has 14 pads: 11 low-mid power pad arranged in a circular pattern with each pad 15' apart and the launch controller table/pad assignment safety check table located on the same ring circumference. Our 3 high power pads are located 150' and 250' from the controller. A 15' pad spacing on the ring allows for continuous loading and launching of model rocket with D and lower impulse engines, and allows use to only have to clear adjecent pads for E-G mid-power launches. The high power pads are spaced so that they do not interfere with any other launch operations with the possible exception of model rocket recovery during a high power pad launch.

This setup is very efficient and allows us to use a 2-man launch crew to safety check, assign pads and launch. An experienced launch crew can handle up to ~100 rockets per hour without excessive waits. When it slows to 60 flights and hour, it can get boring.

The flyiers fill out their flight cards prior bring their rockets to safety check. Safety check check the rocket, may ask a few questions, and assign the pad. Safety check writes the pad number on the flight card and places the card on a 12 position launch card board between him and the LCO. The LCO works around the ring, announces the pad number to be launched, the flyier and the rocket particulars, and then does the countdown and launches the pad.

We have a good multispeaker PA system and FM radio transmitter so spectators know what's going on. Our launcher can handle up to 22 pads, and we can launch any individual pad, or multiple pads (up to the number setup) simultaneously. I believe our record is 1172 launches in one (long) day.

Bob

I'm like you - the only large launch event that I have ever attended was this year's NARAM. I was impressed with the smooth operation of the sport range. The atmosphere was very relaxed and supportive, but still very orderly, and all the rules were followed without fail. Kudos to PSC and to all of the great people who volunteered for LCO and RSO duty during the event.

MarkII

The kind of routine that Dave and especially Bob describe just boggles my mind. Other than for a national event, how do you possibly get that many people who fly rockets together in one place? There really aren't all that many of us, after all.

MarkII

MarkII said:

The kind of routine that Dave and especially Bob describe just boggles my mind. Other than for a national event, how do you possibly get that many people who fly rockets together in one place? There really aren't all that many of us, after all.

MarkII

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Well, we don't typically need that many people to help out. The Three Oaks Team1 launch generally draws about 50 or so registered fliers and oodles of spectators because the weather is often cooperative for that event. Just remember this does not happen at our regular monthly launches.

Just a point of clarification I said, "Here's how we do it waaaay up here in Three Oaks. It's similar to how LDRS and NSL is done but on a much larger scale." in post #4. I meant that LDRS and NSL are done on a much larger scale LOL.

Oops.

-Dave

DAllen said:

Just a point of clarification I said, "Here's how we do it waaaay up here in Three Oaks. It's similar to how LDRS and NSL is done but on a much larger scale." in post #4. I meant that LDRS and NSL are done on a much larger scale LOL.

Oops.

-Dave

Click to expand...

Whew! I was wondering what you had going there! :jaw:

MarkII

It looks like in some situtations with the bigger clubs, flyers are allowed to select their own pads and in others, pads are assigned to them.

Bob made mention of the flight cards being brought back to the LCO after the rockets are read and in place and put on some type of board. I assume that that is so the LCO knows what is being launched and can announce it. Is it any more complex than that?

Is there some organization to the board or are things just put up in the order they are turned in?

At how many flyers do you think it becomes necessary to be more formal in launch procedures?

Thanks again for all the good info so far.

JAL3 said:

It looks like in some situtations with the bigger clubs, flyers are allowed to select their own pads and in others, pads are assigned to them.

Bob made mention of the flight cards being brought back to the LCO after the rockets are read and in place and put on some type of board. I assume that that is so the LCO knows what is being launched and can announce it. Is it any more complex than that?

Click to expand...

At very large launches like LDRS this is where pad managers come in handy. They take care of writing down the pad# on each card. At our monthly club launches we just tell the LCO which pad our rocket is on and they write it down. Here is a copy of our launch card:

https://www.michianarocketry.org/flight_card_2.pdf

Note that we don't make people fill out the ENTIRE thing but some folks do. We just ask that we at least get a name, rocket name, motor and deployment method. We also keep all the flight cards which comes in really handy when writing up the launch reports.

JAL3 said:

Is there some organization to the board or are things just put up in the order they are turned in?

Click to expand...

Typically, we just launch them in order of pad number. However, we can be flexible say if someone has a camera onboard we can launch theirs first or whatever.

JAL3 said:

At how many flyers do you think it becomes necessary to be more formal in launch procedures?

Thanks again for all the good info so far.

Click to expand...

That is a tough question and I don't think there is an easy answer. I've noticed some launches you have volunteers just hanging around and then an hour later they are swamped so it can really vary. In a smaller club I would suggest assigning two people to sort of manage everything and then having 2 or 3 reserves in case a lot of people show up. The reserves duty would be to step in and help sign people in, hand out cards, etc.

-Dave

JAL3 said:

Bob made mention of the flight cards being brought back to the LCO after the rockets are read and in place and put on some type of board. I assume that that is so the LCO knows what is being launched and can announce it. Is it any more complex than that?

Is there some organization to the board or are things just put up in the order they are turned in?

Click to expand...

Our club has a piece of wood with numbers on it and large metal clips. The flier gets his/her rocket on the pad and returns to the launch control area (which is 'safed' and can't actually launch a rocket) and puts their card in the clip next to the number with their pad.

Once the racks are fairly full or full, the LCO walks over, closes the range (i.e. people get behind the line) and arms the launch system. He/she announces over the PA the flier name, pad number etc etc and then pushes the button. After that, he removes the card from the clip and puts it in a stack and the club secretary uses that stack to write up the launch report for the website. Typically, he gathers them by flier name and writes something like "Sandy flew his Gee Whiz twice, once on a G64 and once on a G77. He also flew his CB special on an H97."

Now that I think of it, that's really got to be a pain to do. I'll have to remember to thank him for doing that next launch!

I have seen a similar arrangement used at another club as well.

Sandy.

Hiya John:
Some random thoughts...

Your first line of defense is an experienced flyer reviewing the most common failure points for each rocket. NOVAAR has put together a checklist at https://novaar.org/drupal//files/file/pdf/NOVAARrsg.pdf to help guide safety check in. NOVAAR has lots of Scouting and other "first time" flyers. They all need help to remember wadding and with positive motor retention.

You can find RSO guidelines on the Tripoli site and the "trained safety officer" document on the NAR site.

I think that club's need to keep accurate and complete launch cards so that they can review failures that slipped by the safety check in. Clubs need to review failures in order to find out how to reduce failures. Reducing failures is critical to the continuance of the hobby. The first time we kill someone, we will come under scrutiny that will make our previous problems look minor.

So you need a process that assures that flight cards get filled in with before and after flight information. And then you need to review those to see why they are slipping through your safety check in process. And then you need to amend the review process to try to eliminate recurring problems.

You will still have failures. But that is why you have the safety distances to reduce the risk the chance of a failure resulting in injury or damage.

JAL3 said:

It looks like in some situtations with the bigger clubs, flyers are allowed to select their own pads and in others, pads are assigned to them.

Bob made mention of the flight cards being brought back to the LCO after the rockets are read and in place and put on some type of board. I assume that that is so the LCO knows what is being launched and can announce it. Is it any more complex than that?

Is there some organization to the board or are things just put up in the order they are turned in?

At how many flyers do you think it becomes necessary to be more formal in launch procedures?

Thanks again for all the good info so far.

Click to expand...

John

At CMASS launches folks completely fill out their flight cards before coming to the safety check table. This way the safety check person knows immediately who owns the rocket, if the are NAR or TRA member and if they are HP certified and to what level. they also know the impulse class and thrust of the motors(s), the method of recovery and the size of the launch lug/rail buttons. They examine the rocket and may ask any pertainent questions. If all is well the rocket is handed back to the owner and he/she is told their pad assignment. The safety check person put the flight card on the LCO board and inspects the next rocket. The rocket's owner goes to the assigned pad, sets up his rocket and moves away.

The LCO simply keeps announcing and launching.

In our mod roc ring, pads 1-4 and 9-11 have 1/8" rods, 5 and 8 have 3/16" and 6 and 7 have 1/4" rods initially but can be changed if demand requires it. High power A and B are for L1 rockets and high power C is for L1 and L2 rockets. All high power pads have 1/4", 3/8 AND 1/2" rods and rails.

This system works well if most folks are experienced, but if we have a lot of new folks, we'll get an experienced person to guide the newbie thru the process.

For 300+ scout launches, we'll put 3 to 5 teams of 2 club members to man a safety check/fix it station and then send the scouts to the pad assignment table. We then have e to 4 members as pad helpers working 3 to 4 pads to keep thing moving. It's the only way to launch 100 rockets an hour at a cub scout launch.

We use this system at all out launches except for TATC qualifications where there are typically 10 to 12 teams and not more than 40 to 50 launches in 4 hours.

Bob

I want to thank everyone for their input. It provided some insight and made me think about some things I had not considered before.

Right now, my club is averaging about 5 fliers per launch. That's out of 10 reasonably active people. Our procedures are simply because they don't have to be complex. That is slowly changing. I get more calls from people asking questions and groups like scouts and TARC teams asking if they can visit. When we do start getting more people, I want to be able to handle the load so that all will have a good time and people will come back.

Thanks again to everyone.

John,
You may also want to consider using a 'misfire alley' approach. By spreading out the launch equipment, it reduces many of the delays caused by waiting for the rack to be loaded. It also allows the flyers to press their own launch button rather than having the LCO do all the launches.

Here is an article that describes the approach:
https://www.masa-rocketry.org/planet/masa_Vol5-4.pdf

Here are the launch rules that MASA uses to handle a mixture of misfire alley and community pads.
https://www.masa-rocketry.org/launchrules.htm

BobCox said:

John,
You may also want to consider using a 'misfire alley' approach. By spreading out the launch equipment, it reduces many of the delays caused by waiting for the rack to be loaded. It also allows the flyers to press their own launch button rather than having the LCO do all the launches.

Here is an article that describes the approach:
https://www.masa-rocketry.org/planet/masa_Vol5-4.pdf

Here are the launch rules that MASA uses to handle a mixture of misfire alley and community pads.
https://www.masa-rocketry.org/launchrules.htm

Click to expand...

Again, thanks for the input. :santa-smile:

It looks like y'all have too many members and need to ship some of them down here.:impatient:

JAL3 said:

It looks like y'all have too many members and need to ship some of them down here.:impatient:

Click to expand...

I've met many MASA members at NARCON and NSL, but I'm not one of them. They are a great club and I wish they weren't so far away.

Here's how the Blue Mountain Rocketeers conduct their launch activities.

https://www.bmr615.org/for_first_time_flyers_with_bmr.htm

Not saying it is the best way to do it, just the way that works the best for us, as it has evolved over the past 15 years of operation.

Hope this helps!

tquigg said:

Here's how the Blue Mountain Rocketeers conduct their launch activities.

https://www.bmr615.org/for_first_time_flyers_with_bmr.htm

Not saying it is the best way to do it, just the way that works the best for us, as it has evolved over the past 15 years of operation.

Hope this helps!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. It too helps out in my understanding of how things work.

BobCox said:

John,
You may also want to consider using a 'misfire alley' approach. By spreading out the launch equipment, it reduces many of the delays caused by waiting for the rack to be loaded. It also allows the flyers to press their own launch button rather than having the LCO do all the launches.

Here is an article that describes the approach:
https://www.masa-rocketry.org/planet/masa_Vol5-4.pdf

Here are the launch rules that MASA uses to handle a mixture of misfire alley and community pads.
https://www.masa-rocketry.org/launchrules.htm

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the method I prefer... I have my own pad and launcher and just prefer to use my own equipment. When I have trouble, it's usually when I try to use the club system.

There's no reason a "misfire alley" system can't be just as safe as a central control system, IF your fliers have any discipline and know what they're doing. Maybe for scouts and TARC and a lot of newbs/kids, I could see a centralized system having an advantage.

We're (Challenger 498) a pretty small club as well, but growing, yet still have only usually around a half-dozen fliers at most launches. We basically use a lot of the 'old' club equipment that were passed down from previous iterations of the club as it waxed and waned over the years, expertly repaired by our own Mikus Superfly! We have a rail, a sawhorse 'club pad' and I usually bring down my own stuff as well, and leave my controller on the same table as the club launcher. That way we have a little extra capacity

Anyway, I think it's a nice way of doing things. I started doing the reports of our near-monthly launches (when we're not up to our knees in mud or suffering from heat exhaustion here in SE TX) and in lieu of flight cards, I set out a 'sign-in sheet' with the flier's name, rocket name, engine(s), and comments section. Everyone is asked to comment on their LAST flight on the sheet as they sign in for their NEXT flight... noting anomalies, interesting occurrances, etc. Usually this system works pretty well for us 'old hats'...

I think if you've got a bunch of scouts, TARC kids, newbs, etc. you might do better with a dedicated "launch officer" to coordinate things, basically due to their unfamiliarity with how things SHOULD be done, more than anything else. That, and we ALL know how younger kids are... :y:

Later and good luck! OL JR

luke strawwalker said:

Yeah, that's the method I prefer... I have my own pad and launcher and just prefer to use my own equipment. When I have trouble, it's usually when I try to use the club system.

There's no reason a "misfire alley" system can't be just as safe as a central control system, IF your fliers have any discipline and know what they're doing. Maybe for scouts and TARC and a lot of newbs/kids, I could see a centralized system having an advantage.

We're (Challenger 498) a pretty small club as well, but growing, yet still have only usually around a half-dozen fliers at most launches. We basically use a lot of the 'old' club equipment that were passed down from previous iterations of the club as it waxed and waned over the years, expertly repaired by our own Mikus Superfly! We have a rail, a sawhorse 'club pad' and I usually bring down my own stuff as well, and leave my controller on the same table as the club launcher. That way we have a little extra capacity

Anyway, I think it's a nice way of doing things. I started doing the reports of our near-monthly launches (when we're not up to our knees in mud or suffering from heat exhaustion here in SE TX) and in lieu of flight cards, I set out a 'sign-in sheet' with the flier's name, rocket name, engine(s), and comments section. Everyone is asked to comment on their LAST flight on the sheet as they sign in for their NEXT flight... noting anomalies, interesting occurrances, etc. Usually this system works pretty well for us 'old hats'...

I think if you've got a bunch of scouts, TARC kids, newbs, etc. you might do better with a dedicated "launch officer" to coordinate things, basically due to their unfamiliarity with how things SHOULD be done, more than anything else. That, and we ALL know how younger kids are... :y:

Later and good luck! OL JR

Click to expand...

Thanks for your input as well. This line of thought actually ties in somewhat with an idea I have been considering that adds a hybrid of the misfire alley approach along with the club equipment. I'm still doing my homework right now but the basic idea is that each of the club rack will be wired to 4 additional outlets for auxilliary pads that would be controlled from the main system. If somebody wants to use his own pad or has special launch requirements like a tower, piston, etc., that person can be directed to set up at a designated place near (within the reach of the 25' cable) the sawhorse rack. The extender cable is run from the sawhorse rack and the controller is already wired to handle it, if it is present. This does not prevent anyone from using their own launch controller if the RSO says OK but makes integration with the club equipment easy, if that is the desire of the range.

What is the purpose of the 25-foot cable? Does it control a relay, or does it provide current directly to the igniter? When you start getting into longer leads, it is nice to have the battery and relay right next to the pad to minimize the resistive losses in the leads. The control lines can be arbitrarily long and fairly light weight since they only need to carry enough current to trigger the relay.

BobCox said:

What is the purpose of the 25-foot cable? Does it control a relay, or does it provide current directly to the igniter? When you start getting into longer leads, it is nice to have the battery and relay right next to the pad to minimize the resistive losses in the leads. The control lines can be arbitrarily long and fairly light weight since they only need to carry enough current to trigger the relay.

Click to expand...

Well... that raises some questions that I have I just hadn't gotten to the point of being ready to make a public fool of myself. Since the question was asked, though, I will go ahead.

It's not like I wasn't going to make a fool of myself anyway...

I've started a new thread here: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?p=65557#post65557 dealing with this and related questions so those with no interest won't have to slog through it.

JAL3 said:

Thanks for your input as well. This line of thought actually ties in somewhat with an idea I have been considering that adds a hybrid of the misfire alley approach along with the club equipment. I'm still doing my homework right now but the basic idea is that each of the club rack will be wired to 4 additional outlets for auxilliary pads that would be controlled from the main system. If somebody wants to use his own pad or has special launch requirements like a tower, piston, etc., that person can be directed to set up at a designated place near (within the reach of the 25' cable) the sawhorse rack. The extender cable is run from the sawhorse rack and the controller is already wired to handle it, if it is present. This does not prevent anyone from using their own launch controller if the RSO says OK but makes integration with the club equipment easy, if that is the desire of the range.

Click to expand...

We do something vaguely similar, but much less formal. If someone wants to use, say, their own launch tower, we just have the person set it up right next to one of our pads. Our clip leads aren't actually attached to the pads, so it is a simple matter for people to just move the leads over to the equipment that they have set up. All launching is still done from the LCO table, though, but if the individual wants to press the button for his or her own launch, that's usually not a problem once the LCO provides the go-ahead.

MarkII

John,

You've probably seen it but Stine's Handbook of Model Rocketry has a great chapter on club operations and setup.

One of the ways Narhams handles personal equipment and launchers is to provide 6 away pad extension leads.
Our Main launch controller is set-up to control 3 6-pad racks or a combination. Our main sport range set-up has 2 6-pad racks and a center 6-pad splitter box that allows 6 individual extension pads to be added. These six leads are 30' long allowing us to place away pads up to 80feet out or with one of the HD extensions and relay box up to 150feet out. Heres a couple close-up pics of the equipment, once on the ground it's very hard to see so No set up shot included. Hope this helps a little.

luke strawwalker said:

We're (Challenger 498) a pretty small club as well, but growing, yet still have only usually around a half-dozen fliers at most launches. We basically use a lot of the 'old' club equipment that were passed down from previous iterations of the club as it waxed and waned over the years, expertly repaired by our own Mikus Superfly! We have a rail, a sawhorse 'club pad' and I usually bring down my own stuff as well, and leave my controller on the same table as the club launcher. That way we have a little extra capacity

Anyway, I think it's a nice way of doing things. I started doing the reports of our near-monthly launches (when we're not up to our knees in mud or suffering from heat exhaustion here in SE TX) and in lieu of flight cards, I set out a 'sign-in sheet' with the flier's name, rocket name, engine(s), and comments section. Everyone is asked to comment on their LAST flight on the sheet as they sign in for their NEXT flight... noting anomalies, interesting occurrances, etc. Usually this system works pretty well for us 'old hats'...

Click to expand...

JR, you're right. For a club our size, the way we do things works just fine, because there are few enough flyers that we can pretty much keep at least half an eye on what the other guys are doing, and the parents who are there police their kids really well. And obviously we can ask and answer questions at any time, too, if anyone has any questions or concerns about a particular rocket.

Now if we can just get the battery connectors on the club's "professionally built" launch system wired right! At our November (?) launch, Mikus and I discovered that the controller's clips to the external battery were wired backwards. Once we saw the problem (the analog voltmeter on the face of the controller helped a lot), the controller worked *much* better. And to think that it's pretty much just been in storage for a few years because of that wiring error.

We launch in a huge Los Angeles County Regional Park. We must conduct "controlled and supervised" launches. The detailed procedure and flight cards are on our website. The Calendar of Events and all associated webpages will be updated for 2010 any time during the next day or two, but the Procedure and Flight Cards remain the same.

https://home.earthlink.net/~mebowitz/