100k attempt - TRF new project!!!!

I have recently started building the VB Extreme 38mm that I bought from Ross several months ago. My desire to do something "special" with this rocket drove me to suggest a Forum project. The mods and admins of the forum have graciously agreed to use this rocket in a 100K attempt. Now, before you start thinking "WOW 100K" it is 100K total in one day not in one flight. Actually we will be shooting for 110K to beat the only recorded record I can find:

Lee Reep can take credit for this idea:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=672&highlight=100K

So, the TRF guys will be going for the record. I will keep updating you guys with the progress. Right now we are planning a Summer time attempt. I have to do some testing first. More later...

The pics:
https://www.cybergatetech.com/phpgraphy/?dir=Rocketry/VBExtreme38

Let the pigeons loose and let the games begin!

I am preping the USS Tacoma for recovery duty. I will have to switch over to her "cow mud" tires just before the event.

SWEET!

That sounds like a ton of fun! What's your waiver there?


Hmmm...I wonder what the LDRS waiver's gonna be in Argonia....

Not sure what the waiver at Whitakers is but I think the plan is to get 7000' on each flight. I do know the waiver will cover this.

15 flights will get us to 105,000 while 16 flights will get us to 112,000. 2 flights/hour for 8 hours. That's going to be tough as I think there is only 7 hours of flying time at Whitakers.

Ken correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

I've known the waiver to be 25000 ft at Argonia.

Swimmer

Originally posted by KermieD
What's your waiver there?

Click to expand...

The waiver at Whitakers is 8000 ft with a 12000 ft call in.

As Mark said, the waiver at Whitakers is 8000 ft with a 12000 foot call in, and as Milo said, we are shooting for around 7000 ft per flight.

The waiver is active from 10:00 AM to 6:00 PM, so that gives us 8 hours of flying time. If we start right at 10:00 AM, and we do a flight every half hour, but we manage to get *one last flight* off at 5:55 PM, we could (theoretically) squeeze in 17 flights.

If everything goes perfectly -

And if everything doesn't go perfectly? Why, we shoot Phil, of course !!!! :kill:

Or, maybe we just sacrifice him to the cows !!!!
(Milo, could you build a "cow charging and goring Phil" smilie that works like the "kill" smilie? I'm certain it would be a big hit on the forum and get used a lot)

Ken, Ken, Ken.... all the negative vibes....

We do plan on working with the club heads for that launch to make sure they get there on time or earlier. Flying should at least start at 10:00.

17 flights @ 7,000 = 119,000 <- I can live with that...

When is the target timeframe for this launch. I may have to drive up from Atlanta just to watch

Alan

Drive up to watch? I don't think so. ANYONE from the TRF membership that shows up is likely to get put to WORK.

Timeframe wise, we are thinking it's not going to happen until summer of next year. Phil is still building the bird at this time. After it's built, we'll have to do 2 things:

1 - enough test flights to get the procedures down pat

2 - break Phil's jinx. I don't think Phil has ever had ANY rocket last more than 4 or 5 flights

(Sorry, Phil. I just couldn't resist. It was too easy. [Not to mention it's the truth] Plus I had a crappy day at work, and I tend towards negativism at such times. I'll work on it. I promise)

I'll tell you what - if I have a package of 2 oz fiberglass cloth in my supplies, I'll bring it to you tomorrow, so that you don't have to wait until next week. IF I have a package of it.... and if I can remember to check.

Brainstorming.........

How can those of us who are logisticly(sp) challenged get involved?

How about considering TRF members names on the rocket for a small nominal fee to help with project costs?

How about bringing the rocket to LDRS next year? (just a thought)

Swimmer

I will take on camera man duties.

I can't commit to helping until the date is set or the time gets closer. Hopefully, I can attend this event.

I absolutely love this idea. My question is whether the right rocket is being chosen for the job (notwithstanding Ken's [somewhat valid from my understanding] questions of Phil's record of donations). Would it not be worth it to choose a rocket that has a) TTW fin mounting and b) a pure fiberglass tube? Looking at Lee's (where on earth has Lee been, by the way?) posts on the topic, it seems clear that the rocket's going to take some serious abuse in the attempt. Even with the fiberglass reinforcement and the whatzahoozitsing (dado, dada? the website won't open for me right now) of the BT, it seems like one really rough landing could toast the attempt.

I could be 110% wrong (as always) and I hope I didn't jinx ya, but it seems to me like something sturdier (this *is* Phil) is in order?

::activating Nomex flame-proof suit::

Originally posted by KermieD
My question is whether the right rocket is being chosen for the job.

Click to expand...

Well, the VB Extreme is designed specifically for altitude attempts. I'll bet that with just a bit of glass and some extra fin reinforcements, that it'll be up to the task at hand.

Yep, and I've seen Phil's fillets up close. They will be strong to say the least.

I don't think Phil has a problem with rockets breaking, it is more of not being able to recover them because they leave the county after launch.

Phil... I still love ya buddy! I have faith in ya.

Recovery is going to be the toughest thing here. I hope everybody brings their binoculars. This rocket will disappear from the naked eye at about 3000'.

The VB Extreme 38 has a very strong body tube. It should be able to cut it. As Ken says, we will find out in the testing phase.

As far as logistically challenged, I'm not to the point yet where donations are appropriate. Since it was my idea I'm going to try to do it where noone else has to put out any scratch. Hopefully just time is all I need, that and your voodoo white magic to kill the curse I'm under.

LDRS is a great idea, when and where is it?

About the website. I did something stupid last night... Knowing I was going out of town today and wont be back till Sunday, I upgraded to Linux 8.0. What a goob I am. So, needless to say, everything didn't turn out 100% so the website is down right now. Hopefully I can find out some stuff today at work that will at least get me web access before I leave this afternoon. Wish me luck....

Phil...

A few suggestions bro...glass the lower fins with sturdy cloth...do not add fillets. Fillets = weight and the lighter it is the better. It will allow the rocket to achieve higher altitudes and have less weight during landing if something goes wrong...which means less mass hitting the ground and less chance of breakage.

Here is another thought...how about using a "bolt-on" acme fin can...that way if a fin breaks, we can switch fin cans and go?

I think we ought to have Kelly open up the waiver and go for fewer higher flights...9-10 11k flights are nearly half the ammount, cheaper in cost of motors and only take an additional minute during decent, and half the launches will give us some roome for repairs or retrieval in case one "walks". JMHO

Carl

Tip-to-tip carbon fiber? I'd stick with fillets too, since you are targeting only 7K per flight, the added weight shouldn't be a problem on this bird at all.

my $0.03

Nathan

So... what kinda motor is this rocket going take? I assume you are planning to use Pro38's.. but I did not see anyone mention which motor type will be used? Or am I just blind?

The Doug

Since there were some questions regarding LDRS22 in the 100K attempt thread, I'll give the details.

LDRS 22 will be hosted by KLOUDBusters (Kansas Tripoli prefecture) July 17-22, 2003. 4 commercial, 2 EX days.

When we're up-and-running the URL will be www.ldrs22.org .

You can check out some of the details of our launch site at www.kloudbusters.org .

Our standing waiver for all launches is 25,000 AGL and the terrain is wide open prarie and farm land, so bring on the big stuff!

This would be a great site for your 100K attempt and we would love to have you.

--Lance.
KLOUDBusters
TRA 8569 L2

n3tjm: we're guessing that we are going to be using the 3 or 4 grain Pro38's for motors. What we use will depend on testing results and what we finally choose as the flight profile.

Carl's points have some merit, though. Carl, Phil and I have been disgussing / fighting / arguing over what would be the best flight profile for this bird. My concern with going with the fewer/higher flight profile is that it increases the chances that we'll lose the bird. Also, the last time Kelly tried to open up the waiver for an L3 attempt that was being made with a relatively light weight rocket the request got refused. And, even if you get permission, the "open" window is only good for a half hour. I don't think Kelly is going to want to be calling in every half hour all day long.

Of course, regardless of the flight profile, any really significant burp will pretty much toast the attempt. Even with the 9 or 10 flight profile, there just isn't a lot of leeway. Granted, more than there is with the 16 or 17 flight profile....

Also, I told Phil what I would do on the fins is:

- one layer of 2 oz fiberglas cloth fin tip to fin tip across the body tube

- 2nd layer of 2 oz fiberglass that goes from about 2 inches up the fin across the body tube to 2 inches up the adjacent fin

- IF he thinks it is needed, a 3rd layer of 2 oz fiberglass that would just go about an inch up the fin and an inch onto the body tube... but I really don't think it will be needed.... but I think the added weight for it would be negligible - if this is done, skip the fillets or use very small fillets

Carl's idea of a bolt on Acme fin can is interesting... but Phil already has the fins glued on to the body tube.....

No matter how the bird's constructed or what flight profile is decided on, this is going to be an interesting project.

Wow 25,000'. An I sims to over 10k. So it would only take about 10 flights. That may be a possibility. Not sure how far Kansas is from NC.

The motor that takes it to 7k (I believe) will be the Pro38 3 grain. With the size of the motor area, 4 and 5 grains could be possible. During testing, I will be starting with an AT F, then a 1 grain (G) and then a 3 grain.

I have (thanks to Ken) a bit of 2 oz cloth that I was going to do fin to fin glassing with 3 layers. Should be very strong. No fillets cause the glass will form fillets.

Hmmmm, bolt on fin can. Crap. Wish you would have mentioned it earlier. Course, wouldn't replacing the fins with new fins constitute a new rocket? This would nullify out 100K attempt wouldn't it?

Cool project guys. I think the biggest challenge will be recovering quickly enough to cycle the rocket enough times in one day. The higher the better since not much of the cycle time will be eaten up in the uppinze direction or in the free fall/streamer phase before the main comes out. Also, you probably have a better shot at success at a local launch. My one experience with LDRS says that the waits could hurt your chances. Of course, the population of trees could REALLY be the deciding factor.

Another point worth mentioning - the higher the altitude the more probability of losing it. Of course, the difference between 7000ft and 10,000ft wouldn't make much difference since the rocket will be out of sight anyways.

Build strong, fly high, go drogueless, pop chute at a low altitude. And pick a CALM DAY!

OK, my stupid PC problems (which still continue) has been moved to the Coffee House so this thread can stay on topic. You can see the PC problem thread here:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1396

Ken was nice enough to provide me with 2oz cloth. This weekend will be the glassing phase. I would say I will have pics for ya but MY WEB SITE IS DOWN!!! I'm not bitter though...

Seriously, thank Ken! I'm hoping to have this thing ready for some testing at the October Whitakers Launch but I am running out of time. More later...

I managed to put one layer of 2oz tip to tip on the VBExtreme. The fins stick out from the rocket (sorry I don't know the technical name for it) approx 2 inches. Which means the idea of doing layers of different size of cloth is kina pointless. So I plan on doing 3 layers of tip to tip 2 oz. If I have any left then I will double roll the whole rocket with 2 oz. That with the strength of the body tube should be more than enough strength to get the job done.

Thinking about using a launch tower instead of rod.

testing...

Did it work?