copper head replacement

I've had alot of trouble with the copperhead igniters that come with my aerotech hobby reloads..
what is a good alternitive igniter that wont cost me a bundle and fit the 24mm reloads?29mm reloads?


stymye

B&K igniters are available from Performace Hobbies at $15 for 10 igniters. I think that's one of the better deals around.

I know a few people on the forum here have purchased the Igniterman kit from Pratt Hobbies for $35 and made their own.

HTH

Jason

I went to the performance hobbies site but I couldnt find the b&k igniters...

I'm sure some of the guys in here have to make their own. I'd be interested in a good EASY method for making ignitors. I know it's gotta be out there! The guy who took me under his wing to get my L1 makes his own and offered to show me at a launch, but I hate to take his time on launch day.

stymye:

Ken Allen has a lot of stuff that he doesn't list on his web site. Best thing to do is just call him on the phone. I talked to him at Whitakers yesterday, and I know that he has the B&K ignitors in stock.

Kermie:
I don't know about there being an "easy" way to make ignitors. Mark Brown here on the forum bought an IgnitorMan kit, but he is buying B&K ignitors from Ken Allen at Performance Hobbies, because he says making your own is a pain in the frammus.

I don't even wanna know where Mark's "frammus" is. The guy at our launches doesn't use kits and has a method that he says is much easier than Ignitorman. He's given me about 4 of them to date, all of which worked fantastically, and says they cost him almost nothing to make. I was hoping someone else was privy to that method.

Hmmm, Kermie, it sounds to me like you have some investigating to do to let us all know what this guy's doing for igniters that dont' cost him much to make.

Or better yet, get him to join the forum to tell us himself!!

Hmmm, many thoughts...

First, I use both Igniterman and Magnelite. Both are easy and I've had 100% success with both. Igniterman uses gapped wires while Magnelite uses wires with a nichrome element (normally have to but them from the manufacturer). I can gap the Igniterman wires by 'eyeball', and have made a home grown Magnelite igniter with a piece of scrap wire and some nichrome that I hand-wrapped onto the main wires leads. My main beef is the Igniterman pyrogen dries out so I need to go to the garage and add some acetone and MEK everytime I make a batch. Both solvents are needed to revive the totally dried out Igniterman pyrogen. Still, I do this while performing other rocket building/prep work so making the igniters really doesn't take much time of its own. EMRR has reviews on both products. Oh, and you can make some REAL small special purpose igniters with Igniterman (examples - cluster 8 MMX motors, Apogee C/D composites).

Still, I end up buying igniters from Ken, usually at the field. I've never had one fail, but I've had the pyrogen crack off them over time.

Another good igniter is the Quickburst line. You can get these on their web-site or on ROL auctions.

Originally posted by rstaff3
My main beef is the Igniterman pyrogen dries out so I need to go to the garage and add some acetone and MEK everytime I make a batch. Both solvents are needed to revive the totally dried out Igniterman pyrogen.

Click to expand...

Dick,
Forgive my ignorance, but what is MEK?

Just my 2 cents worth.

I use the ignitorman kit because I'm on a strict budget and having to pay for nichrome bridged wire leads can get to be a bit expensive. I test the finished ignitors with a Ohmeter and have never had one fail.

I use ordinary telephone hookup wire or scrap ethernet cable for "F" through "I" sized engines. For "D" and "E" sized engines I use #30 hookup wire from Radio Shack. With either size I wrap them together by chucking two wires in an electric drill and then fastening the other ends to a door knob. I then pull on the wires until they are tight and turn on the drill to wrap them together. I'll then cut them into 12" to 18" lengths and strip about 1/4" from one end. To gap them I straighten the stripped ends by eye and then squeeze them together with a piece of paper between them to act as a gap guage. Then it's just "dip and dry" per the kit's directions.

As for making them it is a PITA to do them by myself. I usually call up one of my rocketry buddies and we spend an evening making up a couple of hundred ignitors while swapping rocketry stories. Of course we split the ignitors at the end of the night but it's worth the extra cost to me to keep from being bored.

As for copperheads I've found that I can get a 95% plus success rate with them by scraping both edges of the copper strip below the pyrogen. I use a new, high quality, pocket knife with a serrated edge and capture the strip between my thumb and one of the serrations. Then I just pull the copperhead through the gap slowly.

Ken

Hmm...on the way to look at the can...

Methyl Ethyl Ketone, bought it in a paint store.

I won the nichrome as part of the last Descon, so it was free. Just threw it out as an option vs buying Magnelite wires from Perfectflite.

Well, I have the recipe, and it appears to be pretty easy...it's very similar to Ignitorman, but sorta skips a step.

Spin the wires as described earlier (he uses his wife as opposed to a doorknob, and I'm not even going to SHOP in that aisle) and gap them as small as possible. He says just pinch them together with your fingers and that'll be fine as long as they don't touch. Dip in NITRATE airplane dope and let dry (approx 30 min). Check for resistance (<=10 ohms, but make sure it's not too low, cuz that means your wires are touching). Then dip in pyrogen, which should be available from a number of suppliers (ignitorman pyrogen apparently works great, but pyrogen can also be gotten from PML and a number of other hobby stores).

He's loaned me 3 and no failures yet. He says he hasn't had any problems either. I had problems with Copperheads once, but my problem with them is that they're a pain in the "frammus" to split and peel if you don't have a Copperhead clip to use. In the meantime, he tells me not to worry about bumming ignitors from him, but I always feel bad for sponging offa him like that, so I'm gonna give it a shot to make my own.

Here's another receipe that I found by researching rocketry groups and newsletters on the net. I haven't tried it yet so if anyone else does let me know.

First, all of the chemicals listed, except for the 4F black powder, can be obtained from:

https://www.skylighter.com

You'll have to check your local gun shops to find one that sells muzzle loading equipment for the BP.

To make the conductive primer take Nitrocellulose Lacquer and slowly stir in Conductive Lampblack until the mixture has the consistancy of a thick syrup. Wrap, strip, and dip as per my earlier posting. When dry they should have a resistance of 1 to 10 Ohms and can either be used to create composite ignitors or for igniting Este's style BP motors just the way they are.

For the Pyrogen mix 4 tablespoons of 4F Black Powder and one tablespoon of 325 mesh Aluminum Powder into Nitrocellulose Lacquer. Do not use a lot of lacquer, again you want the mixture to end up with the consistancy of thick syrup. Once mixed you can dip the primed and dried ignitors once or twice to coat them.


_________
Ken

I've read and heard a lot of complaints concerning copperhead ignitors. I have never had a problem with them. They have worked every time for me. I think the problem comes from how they are handled during installation. They are a little tricky to insulate when attaching the launch control alligator clips so each clip only contacts one side. I plan on dipping my own eventually but for now will use the copperheads AT supplies with their reloads. Use caution when making your own ignitors, most everthing involved is highly flammable. MEK has been banned where I work as it has been named a carcinogen(sp) so wear protective gloves anytime you use it and in a well ventilated area. Want to keep you all around!!

Swimmer

I remember seeing something somewhere about dissolving a ping-pong ball in some acetone (then mixing lampblack or powder in it??? I really don't remember all the details). ROL won't come up for me. Does anyone know if this acts as the conductive primer or the pyrogen? I looked up the nitrocellulose lacquer and lampblack and might as well buy the Ignitorman kit by the time all the stuff is purchased. I was also hoping to find a method where I wouldn't have to go online and pay shipping (as conductive lampblack is a black powder compound, I'm guessing that HAZMAT shipping is going to apply) to get the stuff.

Ping pong balls are/used to be made from nitrocellulose (from what I remember hearing). You ever try heating one with a match to pop a dent? Poof...lots of surface area there So if you disolve them I guess you get sorta a nitrocellulose lacquer(?) This wouldn't be conductive, I thought there was something else added.

To me, the home made concoctions are too much trouble.

I saw somewhere ...don't have the url handy
showing how you dissolve 6 ping pong balls into 6oz acetone
for the final dipping fluid
the site also suggested the use of an Estes D engine
paper removed and the black part cut into slivers
than ground with mortar and pestle,mix this with some of the ping pong solution.dip twice , let dry, than dip into the pure ping pong mix twice
I believe it may have been Jim Ball's site
there was also a great article on making the solderless igniters
used in the process...
I'll try and find this site again and post it here.

OK, here's a couple of thoughts on the previous posts based upon what I've read and experienced.

1. Ping-Pong balls are supposed to be pure nitrocellulose but I'm not sure in this day and age if that still holds true. Nitrate "dope" from SIG or Nitrate Lacquer from a fireworks supply company are sure to be the correct item.

2. Mixing Conductive Lampblack and Nitrocellulose Lacquer will make a conductive primer which, when properly applied to two adjacent bare wires, will get hot enough to ignite a pyrogen coating or an Estes engine.

3. Cutting open an Estes "D" engine and grinding up the core is a very bad idea. The black core of an Estes engine is simply compressed black gunpowder. It can ignite from the smallest spark and it would be easy to produce such a spark while cutting open the casing or grinding it with a mortar and pestal.

4. Yes, by the time you add up all of the costs of the four chemicals involved plus the shipping charges you will have spent at least $10 to $20 more than an Ignitorman kit. However, you will have enough chemicals to make 2000 to 4000 ignitors with the raw chemicals versus about 200 to 300 with the Ignitorman kit.


---------------------
Ken

The ping pong ball thing is 6 ping pong balls to 8 oz. acetone. It makes the nitrocellulose lacquer. I found the site, but really don't want to post it, as the method for producing pyrogen listed on there is pretty much an advertisement for burning your house down (it involves 300 mesh magnesium...nasty nasty stuff). He also goes so far as to talk about recovering BP from unused Estes motors, and I personally know a guy who has scars left over from trying to turn 2F BP into 4F BP.

I broke down and bought some nitrate airplane dope and am having that along with the Firestar pyrogen delivered to a launch along with an I161 and a couple of hobby reloads. Graphite powder is available anywhere, so this seems like a reasonable solution to me, and I get to avoid HAZMAT shipping (the pyrogen is fine to ship...apparently nitrate dope isn't).

The pyrogen is prolly shippable because it is packaged as 2 ingredients, each of which alone is not hazmat.

All right. Those of you who have made your own ignitors, here's where I'm at. I made some nitrocellulose lacquer and thickened it up with graphite (man, nobody told me how much graphite, and it's a LOT to get conduction). I twisted up some lengths of phone cable and dipped. Well, I finally got a halfway decent mix, but here's where I have a question. I know everyone says you want a resistance of 10 ohms. I have a resistance of 3.7-4 ohms. I went out to the car and stuck one onto the car battery and it flared up immediately with no pyrogen. Is there something magical about 10 ohms or am I okay so long as I'm getting a flame?

The Ignitorman instructions say that anything between 1.5 ohms and 10 ohms is good. You will be fine at 4 ohms.

-Brian Barney

Just a further FYI if anyone wants to follow these footsteps, I got another message that said the 10 ohms are just a guideline regarding creating enough heat for ignition. If you get a flame at 4 ohms for the mixture, go for it.

This is relatively cheap and easy to do and the ingredients are easy to find. I don't know where to find conductive lampblack locally, as there is only one gun shop in town that even carries 4F black powder, and he had to go check to make sure he had a can. Buying both that and aluminum powder involves WAY more cost in shipping (HAZMAT fees apply to both and aluminum powder is a high explosive, not a low explosive) alone than just buying pyrogen. Aluminum powder likes moisture only slightly less than magnesium does, so I personally don't even want it in the house, as I don't have an exterior garage to play in. Also, unless you have the means to remove the natural moisture from contact with the air in the can of aluminum powder, it is probably going to be worthless by the time you make your next batch of ignitors (unless you're planning on making hundreds at a time, and I just don't need that many).

I personally love the Magnelite pyrogen. Misfires are extremely rare... and the pyrogen has a long shelf life. I use the Magnelite wires for 24mm and up motors, and for those small nozzle motors, I dip regular copperheads in the pyrogen solution. This makes the crapperhead igniter a lot more reliable. On problem though... it takes more current to set these igniters off. The crapperhead is the conductor... It heats up and ignites. The pyrogen coating acts like a heat sink. I also dip my Estes solar igniters in the pyrogen... this improves the performance of Estes igniters.

When I had an igniter fail, I made one basically for free, that worked fine: I started with a used igniter wire; Stripped some new ends back just 1/8"; Soldered a tiny strand of steel wire between the ends; Trimmed an ordinary match head with some scissors; Bent the strand over the top of the match head; Carefully wrapped it together with a thread of fiberglass; and superglued it together. The details:

It is kind of a pain... easier if you have a good magnifier. I bought a foot of ordinary 1/16" steel cable that is stranded 7X7 at Lows. It just takes 3/4" of one of the tiny strands, that's about the size of a hair. Use plumbing flux to get the solder to stick to the steel. After attaching the two ends of the steel strand to the copper wires, bend the strand over the top of the match head. Carefully bind the wires to the trimmed, tapered cardboard of the match head with the fiberglass thread. Use superglue to hold it all in place.

The trick is making it all come out small enough to fit into the engine. The wires will need to be soldered end to end with a slight overlap to be compact. There is nothing about nicrome wire that makes it better for igniters, unless you plan to store them forever, and don't want them to rust. Nicrome is designed not to corrode or burn out at orange heat.

The steel strand glows orange hot for half a second, before it burns out. That ignites the match head, which takes another second or two to ignite the engine. If your time is valuable, just buy igniters. I didn't want to wait 4 days shipping time to my remote location.

gosh, here you guys are maikin your own, ive just been using quickburst ignitors. ive yet to have one fail on me, but i did see one spit out of an econo jet, but i think that if you tape the ignitor to the nozzle you wont have that problem. the twiggy ignitors are great, ive used it on everthing from an F25 to a G80 FWL, and a slim gem came with my EM G35

they all worked great. including the Econoline G WL (G35?)

Scott McNeely

Hey, now that this thread has come back up, I just thought I'd let ya know that the ignitors worked great on both a 38mm H242 and a 29mm F23.

Best part is that they were amazingly cheap. The Firestar pyrogen was the most expensive part at about 10 bucks and it'll last me forever. Other than that, it cost me a $3.50 big tin of acetone (already had some around), 6 ping-pong balls (under 2 bucks), a tube of graphite (less than a buck), and 50' of telephone hookup wire, which provides 100' of usable 22 AWG twisted pair ($5 at Radio Shack). Works out to less than $0.50 per serving with a boatload of leftovers (the wire is going to run out first, so for another 5 bucks, I double the size of the batch).

2nd best part: no soldering. It's incredibly easy to do. It's so easy, it's darn near Kermieproof.

Originally posted by KermieD
Best part is that they were amazingly cheap...
2nd best part: no soldering. It's incredibly easy to do. It's so easy, it's darn near Kermieproof.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a decent setup Jon. If you feel like making a few of those $ back, perhaps I can get ya to make a few of those up for me for my Econo's(24mm). Let me know what ya need to get for 'em and we can do some biz.

Btw... never did get out to cp. Wind just never let up on Sat. and Sundays projects didn't have flyin involved at all.
Oh well...one of these days...