Legality of sugar motors in California?

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ThirstyBarbarian

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I recently had someone ask me about making sugar motors. They are on a tight budget and they heard making sugar motors is much cheaper than buying commercial motors. I know that discussion of how to make sugar motors is limited to the research section, so I would just like to know whether making them is even legal in CA. If so, what are the legal requirements? Are there licenses and certifications required?
 
In the Socialist State of California anything not specifically permitted is expressly prohibited.

https://www.lunar.org/docs/handbook/regs.shtml

Thanks, Kit. Is that current? It includes this:

You must also apply for and receive a BATF Low Explosives User Permit before taking receipt of any rocket motors exceeding 62.5 grams of propellant. This involves, among other things, constructing a "magazine storage" for the engines that is compliant to federal standards.

I don't think that is the case anymore. I'm mostly interested in finding out if there are state or federal regulations regarding sugar motors, not club rules. For example, at the recent TCC October Skies launch, there were people testing experimental and research motors that I guess would not be allowed at a NAR launch or a LUNAR club launch. I'm assuming both LUNAR and TCC operate within the state and federal laws, but LUNAR has stricter club rules regarding non-commercial motors. Apparently, you can work with non-commercaila motors in CA under certain conditions. Assuming a person was doing a private launch on private property, and club rules and insurance restrictions did not apply, are there restrictions on sugar motors?
 
Also from LUNAR - The State of California Regulations for Experimental High Power Rockets and Motors.

https://www.sargrocket.org/documents/california_code_of_regulations_high_power_rockets.pdf

So yes you need a State Pyro License:

Pyrotechnic Operator -Rockets First, Second, or Third Class issued from the State Fire Marshal

Bob

Thanks, Bob. That's what I would have guessed. Personally, I'm happy with commercial motors, but now I'll have some info for my friend.
 
Thanks, Kit. Is that current? It includes this:



I don't think that is the case anymore. I'm mostly interested in finding out if there are state or federal regulations regarding sugar motors, not club rules. For example, at the recent TCC October Skies launch, there were people testing experimental and research motors that I guess would not be allowed at a NAR launch or a LUNAR club launch. I'm assuming both LUNAR and TCC operate within the state and federal laws, but LUNAR has stricter club rules regarding non-commercial motors. Apparently, you can work with non-commercaila motors in CA under certain conditions. Assuming a person was doing a private launch on private property, and club rules and insurance restrictions did not apply, are there restrictions on sugar motors?

LUNAR is NAR. TCC is TRA. TRA handles EX, but I am not sure what is allowed in California. I am pretty sure there are people who build EX motors in California and launch in Nevada. Again, not sure what the legalities are.

(meant TRA, must be on the forum too much)
 
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This should be scrubbed and all of the old incorrect information removed and replaced with current correct information - and the date that the website was created should be at the top and a warning that anything that changed after that date might not be reflected.

Better yet, DO NOT copy over the laws or regulations and simply provide links to the actual information.

For example, FAA notification for "Large Model Rockets" is no longer required.

CA law still restricts Model Rockets to 500 grams (from the 1968 version of NFPA 41L which came before 1122 or 1125).

There are efforts underway to get that changed.

In the Socialist State of California anything not specifically permitted is expressly prohibited.

https://www.lunar.org/docs/handbook/regs.shtml
 
Efforts are underway to change most of the rocket related laws. The Pyro Op license is harder and harder to get since you need signatures from current members (meant to be a sort of apprenticeship thing for firework people) but since only 1 person at an event needs it, it's an unnecessary burden placed on the CA rocketry community.

There are currently talks going on to lift many CA specific restrictions to go more in line with national law. The M class restriction and the Pyro requirement make it awkward to "manufacture" your motors at a launch if you're at FAR.
 
Most of that is not covered by the Law (Health & Safety Code) - it is covered by the Fire Regulations.

Regulations are easier to change than law - unless the desired changes to the regulations would conflict with the law. The law overrides regulations (or you could say that regulations cannot legally override or contradict the law).
 
I recently had someone ask me about making sugar motors. They are on a tight budget and they heard making sugar motors is much cheaper than buying commercial motors. I know that discussion of how to make sugar motors is limited to the research section, so I would just like to know whether making them is even legal in CA. If so, what are the legal requirements? Are there licenses and certifications required?

you need to get approval from 3 different organizations
Local approval...usually the fire department that would responds to your house
State...California State Fire Marshal...Fire Engineering https://osfm.fire.ca.gov/strucfireengineer/strucfireengineer.php
One misconception is that only one Licensed Pyrotechnic Operator needs to be present at a launch. In fact everyone that buys, flies or stores motors over G need to be licensed by the state.
Federal...(only APCP motors got a reprieve from the ATF) Other propellants..sugar...igniters and ematches still require a permit

Here is a link I and a buddy put together years ago. https://xtratime.net/LEUP/leup.htm It's old, outdated and has broken links. BUT it shows you what you need to go through.

Contacting the above sources ..Local Fire Dept, State Fire Marshal or the ATF directly is going to be your best source of information.

UhClem (TRF user) also has some very useful info on his web page. I can't seem to find it right now.

Tony
 
The M class restriction and the Pyro requirement make it awkward to "manufacture" your motors at a launch if you're at FAR.

FAR states they can fly up to an "O" motor within the current FAA regulations and anything higher requires an additional waiver 45 days before the launch. I contacted one of their officers earlier this year about the pyro license and propellant making (solid fuel) on site and was informed as a member of FAR I would only need a class 2 person there with me, but would be encourage to get the class 2 license.

My take on this is if you want to make sugar motors in CA it would be best to join one of the amateur clubs. Even as a member of TRA with a L2 and a class 2 pyro isn't it illegal to transport said ex motor ?

Steve G
 
FAR states they can fly up to an "O" motor within the current FAA regulations and anything higher requires an additional waiver 45 days before the launch. I contacted one of their officers earlier this year about the pyro license and propellant making (solid fuel) on site and was informed as a member of FAR I would only need a class 2 person there with me, but would be encourage to get the class 2 license.

My take on this is if you want to make sugar motors in CA it would be best to join one of the amateur clubs. Even as a member of TRA with a L2 and a class 2 pyro isn't it illegal to transport said ex motor ?

Steve G

Being a tripoli member won't be of concern except at a tripoli research launch. Being a class 2 pyro op might be fine, but I'm not sure what California specific restrictions there are on transporting larger motors on public roadways.

Problem is to be a class 2 you have to get your class 3, wait a year, and then find 5 class 2 to endorse you to then take the class 2 test to "legally" manufacture motors in CA. 49 states don't have this requirement and have been doing just fine...
 
FAA rules and regulations are Federal requirements and the last time I looked the FAA has jurisdiction of airspae nationwide. However before they become airborne, the manufacture, transportation and procession of the motors are issues regulated by all jurisdictions: Federal, state and local, and in CA the state and local regulations are more restrictive than the federal regulations

§ 1033. License Required.
No person shall possess, receive, transport, store, or launch any experimental high power rocket motor without first securing a valid license as a Pyrotechnic Operator -Rockets First, Second, or Third Class from the State Fire Marshal. No person shall sell an experimental high power rocket motor to any person unless the seller possesses a valid license as a wholesaler or retailer under this chapter.
Note: Authority cited: Section 12552, Health and Safety Code. Reference: Section 12552, Health and Safety Code

The above regulation is from the undated CA regulations I referenced above. According to the reference, if you have any level CA Pyro Operator License you can legally transport experimental high power motors in CA, but is does not say which class you have to have to legally make the motor. I know that the SugarShot motors are made on-site at FAR, so I'll assume the license level is above the basic one. I'll assume that being a member of FAR, RRS (or most likely other CA amateur rocketry associations) makes it a lot easier than doing it on your own in CA since they have on-site facilities for propellant manufacturing and storage so the motors never have to leave the property, and both have can provide on-site members with the proper licenses.

TRF member High Desert Rocketry knows all the CA regulations as the master sugar cooker for SugarShot and FAR member.

Bob

 
FAA rules and regulations are Federal requirements and the last time I looked the FAA has jurisdiction of airspae nationwide. However before they become airborne, the manufacture, transportation and procession of the motors are issues regulated by all jurisdictions: Federal, state and local, and in CA the state and local regulations are more restrictive than the federal regulations

§ 1033. License Required.
No person shall possess, receive, transport, store, or launch any experimental high power rocket motor without first securing a valid license as a Pyrotechnic Operator -Rockets First, Second, or Third Class from the State Fire Marshal. No person shall sell an experimental high power rocket motor to any person unless the seller possesses a valid license as a wholesaler or retailer under this chapter.
Note: Authority cited: Section 12552, Health and Safety Code. Reference: Section 12552, Health and Safety Code

The above regulation is from the undated CA regulations I referenced above. According to the reference, if you have any level CA Pyro Operator License you can legally transport experimental high power motors in CA, but is does not say which class you have to have to legally make the motor. I know that the SugarShot motors are made on-site at FAR, so I'll assume the license level is above the basic one. I'll assume that being a member of FAR, RRS (or most likely other CA amateur rocketry associations) makes it a lot easier than doing it on your own in CA since they have on-site facilities for propellant manufacturing and storage so the motors never have to leave the property, and both have can provide on-site members with the proper licenses.

TRF member High Desert Rocketry knows all the CA regulations as the master sugar cooker for SugarShot and FAR member.

Bob


Hehe..Experimental High Power Rocket Motor is another term for commercially produced HPR. Technically to fly H-M in CA you have to be a pyro op.

You have to be a Pyro L2 to launch true experimental solid propellant.

And yes being a FAR member makes it much easier to launch. Micrograins, steel casings, ect.
 
When your reading the California requirements realize they use terms different then what we use here in the hobby. It becomes very confusing.
Article 2: Definitions

(3) Experimental High Power Rocket. Non-professional rockets, which are propelled by commercially manufactured high-power solid propellant rocket motors.

(4) Experimental High Power Rocket Motor. A State Fire Marshal approved, commercially manufactured rocket propulsion device containing a solid propellant charge wherein all the ingredients are pre-mixed and which produces more than 160 Newton-seconds (36 lb.-seconds) but shall not exceed 10,240 Newton-seconds (2302.2 lb.-seconds) of total impulse.


Tony
 
[video=youtube;VqomZQMZQCQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqomZQMZQCQ[/video]
 
I go back to my original statement that in the Socialist State of California anything not specifically permitted is expressly prohibited.

See the following quote from Wikipedia on the nature of government and populace with respect to freedom freedom of action.

Wikipedia said:
The jocular saying is that, in England, "everything which is not forbidden is allowed", while, in Germany, the opposite applies, so "everything which is not allowed is forbidden". This may be extended to France — "everything is allowed even if it is forbidden" — and Russia where "everything is forbidden, even that which is expressly allowed". While in North Korea it is said that "everything that is not forbidden is compulsory" In Azerbaijan it is said that "Everything is allowed after giving bribe or with the support of "uncle""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_which_is_not_forbidden_is_allowed
 
''The jocular saying is that, in England, "everything which is not forbidden is allowed", while, in Germany, the opposite applies, so "everything which is not allowed is forbidden". This may be extended to France — "everything is allowed even if it is forbidden" — and Russia where "everything is forbidden, even that which is expressly allowed". While in North Korea it is said that "everything that is not forbidden is compulsory" In Azerbaijan it is said that "Everything is allowed after giving bribe or with the support of "uncle"

:rofl:
 
Whether sugar motors are legal in California is a secondary consideration - if you make and fly sugar motors on your own property you are fine (so long as you store them legally - in a magazine). If you wish to transport them off your property you must hold a BATFE license.

Sugar motors are "unclassified explosives", since they have no UN or EX numbers. But make no mistake, in the eyes of the Federal authorities they are explosives.

Kevin
 
Whether sugar motors are legal in California is a secondary consideration - if you make and fly sugar motors on your own property you are fine (so long as you store them legally - in a magazine). If you wish to transport them off your property you must hold a BATFE license.

Sugar motors are "unclassified explosives", since they have no UN or EX numbers. But make no mistake, in the eyes of the Federal authorities they are explosives.

Kevin

If you fly anything that contains both an oxidizer and a fuel it is classified as a rocket under the CASFM. Technically firing it on your own property requires local fire department approval.

My club did test firings on our campus. We got school approval as well as fire marshal approval, and a month later I realized we didn't have a C2/C1 pyro op present to be "launch operator".

And what makes the laws even dumber is that while everybody launching should have their own license because of how fireworks shows are done, only the coordinator/safety officer need to be licensed, and everybody else can act as an "assistant".
 
If you fly anything that contains both an oxidizer and a fuel it is classified as a rocket under the CASFM. Technically firing it on your own property requires local fire department approval.

My club did test firings on our campus. We got school approval as well as fire marshal approval, and a month later I realized we didn't have a C2/C1 pyro op present to be "launch operator".

And what makes the laws even dumber is that while everybody launching should have their own license because of how fireworks shows are done, only the coordinator/safety officer need to be licensed, and everybody else can act as an "assistant".



See the below cut and paste from an email I sent to Yevonne Costa in regards who needs to be licensed....


I got my packet yesterday thanks for the quick service! I still have a couple of questions on the requirements:
In Article 18 Experimental high Power Rockets and Motors...that is referring to motors that are state certified and above "G" in power? Also in Article 18: section 1039. Supervision and Responsibility..Does everyone flying motors over "G" need a license or just one person at the launch that is in charge?
Where can I find information on line about the differences between Rocket 1, 2 and 3 licenses?

Thanks again for your time..
Tony Alcocer



Here is the states reply:
“All rocket motors need to be certified through our office a-g for model rockets and h and above for high power rockets.
Yes each person needs a license
Go to our webside https://osfm.fire.ca.gov and on the right go to fire engineering, then on the left go to fireworks and look at the laws and regulations, it will explain each class of license.”
 
Well I guess that means most flyers break the law every launch. I think it may be that the pyro op takes responsibility for every flight as the "launcher"?

All I know for sure is that most flyers aren't pyro ops and I haven't heard of a problem with a launch being shut down
 
See the below cut and paste from an email I sent to Yevonne Costa in regards who needs to be licensed....


I got my packet yesterday thanks for the quick service! I still have a couple of questions on the requirements:
In Article 18 Experimental high Power Rockets and Motors...that is referring to motors that are state certified and above "G" in power? Also in Article 18: section 1039. Supervision and Responsibility..Does everyone flying motors over "G" need a license or just one person at the launch that is in charge?
Where can I find information on line about the differences between Rocket 1, 2 and 3 licenses?

Thanks again for your time..
Tony Alcocer



Here is the states reply:
“All rocket motors need to be certified through our office a-g for model rockets and h and above for high power rockets.
Yes each person needs a license
Go to our webside https://osfm.fire.ca.gov and on the right go to fire engineering, then on the left go to fireworks and look at the laws and regulations, it will explain each class of license.”

If this is the case, then I'm not sure how any of the high-power launches in CA are allowed to go on. Or how any of the commercial activities with HPR motors are allowed. The state must be aware that the large majority of people buying and flying HPR motors in CA do NOT have a license. Is the state just looking the other way? Or is this info not correct?
 
My info came right from the person that is in charge of the fire works programs, which is also where 'rockets' fall into. I don't think my questions where unclear. I've never seen them at a launch in an official capacity. They've never come and checked my storage or records. The state license is required to obtain the federal license.

ThirstyBarbarian: I do have a question for you. The person that asked you about legality of sugar motors in CA. Do they currently fly high power rockets? Do they currently have a federal license? If not why even worry about the CA stuff?

I've got to much to loose. I'm as legal as I know how to be. As you can see from all the above it's very confusing and has taken a lot of time to get all the permits that I have.

Tony
 
My info came right from the person that is in charge of the fire works programs, which is also where 'rockets' fall into. I don't think my questions where unclear. I've never seen them at a launch in an official capacity. They've never come and checked my storage or records. The state license is required to obtain the federal license.

ThirstyBarbarian: I do have a question for you. The person that asked you about legality of sugar motors in CA. Do they currently fly high power rockets? Do they currently have a federal license? If not why even worry about the CA stuff?

I've got to much to loose. I'm as legal as I know how to be. As you can see from all the above it's very confusing and has taken a lot of time to get all the permits that I have.

Tony

The person who asked me about it has since then told me they do not think they are going to try to make sugar motors, so the point is moot, I guess. But no, they do not currently fly HPR, and they do not have a federal or state license. They were interested in making motors comparable to an Estes E or F BP motor.
 
[video=youtube;5_0ixbiwOZ4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_0ixbiwOZ4[/video]

No animals were harmed during the filming of this test and no sugar formulas were divulged. :wink:
 
First rule of flying high power in California is that no one talks about flying high power in California.

Apologies to Chuck Palahniuk.
 
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