Blackhawk-38

I sense that this thread is about to go bad.


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codysmith said:

Now,this is going to sound worse than I want it to but, who really cares? I have never heard or anyone actually enforcing that rule. At my club, minors fly with electronics all the time. I plan to start soon as well. "due to the regulatory requirements of ejection charges" , So what? I get someone else at my club to store my black powder. Go for it David, if you want to build a DD rocket, nobody is gonna stop you from flying it. Honestly, most of the rules are stupid and aren't enforced. I don't even see why there has to be an age limit on most things. We have to have an adult sponsor anyways that puts their name on the flight card, they are over 18 and they can use DD whenever they want.

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This in a nut shell is why there should not be a junior program. By law under 18's can not handle black powder. Done. Also, your adult sponsor should be doing a hell of a lot more than putting their name on the flight card. They should be prepping the flight from start to finish as you are not allowed to handle black powder. You are a minor, and as such you lack the experience and forethought to be able to see how your choices and actions could potentially effect everyone in this hobby. If I were the RSO, you would not fly unless I personally witnessed your sponsor prep your flight, load the motor and instal the ignitor.

Yup. I am going to jump on the soap box here.


I understand why jr's are not allowed to use pyro charges. However, why can youth not use pyro charges/larger than L1 motors/airstarts on a rocket if the flight card is signed by a certified person? That NAR Jr cert seems kinda pointless IMHO for this exact reason.


Under TMP, I have flown 4 dual deploy flights and 1 multistage flight.

Well that escalated quickly. And if perchance, someone was enforcing these rules, would you have your membership taken away for disobeying the rules?

You can ask the ATF why. Feel free to report back on their lighthearted disposition, excellent sense of humor, and boundless empathy [/sarcasm]


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We can not pick and choose which rules to follow, or its pointless to have any.

It's a dumb rule. I agree. If the adult is prepping the motor, why not the charges too? Seems logical.

But it's still a rule, and ignoring it isn't an option. Changing it is.

Has anyone ever petitioned to have an NAR rule changed?

Changed to what? What would you petition to change it to?

I was just wondering if it had been done.

Since you guys are young enough not to have had to deal with government agencies very much, let me give you a few friendly words of advice:

(1) It is a bad idea to advocate on a public forum for the flagrant violation of the law
(2) It is a bad idea to brag on a public forum about having previously violated the law
(3) It is a bad idea to incriminate others on a public forum by suggesting that they may have aided and abetted you while you were violating the law.

The reason for the above should be obvious, but I'll sum up why you are likely to get a reaction for doing these things: They bring unwanted attention. More experienced members of the hobby, some of whom spend a fair amount of time dealing with BATF, FAA, the fire department, etc. so you don't have to, have learned through years of experience and occasional court battles that our hobby is better off when these government entities don't have reason to pay attention to us. When we make their life easy by obeying the rules while at the same time giving them lots of good paperwork to sign and hours to work justifying their employment, we are at a tenuous but nevertheless happy balance that enables everybody to go on merrily doing what they are doing.

When you start breaking rules in such a manner as to draw attention not only to members of the hobby but to those in government who are helpful to us, we suddenly find that our former regulatory benefactors can turn nasty in a very big hurry, and they will throw us all under the bus (technical term: hypovehiculation) in less time than it takes to light a Vmax. Violating any of the above numbered principles therefore has the effect of making other members of the hobby want to stay as far away from you as possible.

And if the farmer gets wind of such things you can say good-bye to the launch site in a real big hurry also, because he doesn't want the attention either.

So let's stick with no black powder charges in Jr. rockets and following the rules, OK? And then let's get back to the Blackhawk 38.

And BTW... Just leeting you know wfcook, i have never violated the law under the TMP program. i am allowed to fly anything a certified mentor is willing to sign off on. In no way am i trying to "deal with a govt agency".

To the OP, this isn't a NAR rule. It's federal. Go into your local gun store and try to buy a pound of black powder. I bet they say no and refer to some stupid law too. Just be happy with the toys you can play with. There is so many cool things you can do with G power alone. You can spend the sum total of your rocketry life and not run out of things to do with a G.




Because I am addicted, this is coming from my phone.

blackbrandt said:

And BTW... Just leeting you know wfcook, i have never violated the law under the TMP program. i am allowed to fly anything a certified mentor is willing to sign off on. In no way am i trying to "deal with a govt agency".

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Relax, I am a supporter of you and your friends' efforts. I am impressed by your rockets and your contributions to the forum. The phrase "friendly advice" is sincere. Let me try to be more clear about the things here that concern me (and probably others), and please try to keep an open mind. I, too, think that the regulations are a bit stupid, but that does not change the fact that we need to work within them:

(1) First, let me call your attention to the part of the TMP that states "3. The Mentor is responsible for and will handle all aspects of the launch involving all materials which require high power certification." and the corresponding portion of NAR Jr. program which says "4. ...The junior modeler, due to regulations, MUST NOT HANDLE THE MOTOR." Also note in the NAR code, "2. The qualification flight and all future flights must be single deployment only. This is due to regulatory requirements of ejection charges used in dual deployment systems. On board electronic devices are permitted as long as they are not used for deployment." I think that's pretty clear in both cases.
(2) Codysmith commented: "Go for it David, if you want to build a DD rocket, nobody is gonna stop you from flying it. Honestly, most of the rules are stupid and aren't enforced." Saying things like this in an open forum or anywhere else for that matter is a bad idea. That sort of thing makes people around here justifiably nervous.
(3) You said: " i am allowed to fly anything a certified mentor is willing to sign off on." This is incorrect. Just because a TMP signs the paper does not mean you are allowed to fly it. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS HAS OCCURRED IN YOUR CASE, but if the TMP should not have signed off on the flight, than neither he/she nor you are absolved of responsibility for having broken the rules. I am simply saying that you need to be a little more aware of the frailty of the legal platform you are on. I don't care if the TMP is head of the BATF. If the flight is in violation of rules, then both you and the TMP are at legal risk, and everyone else in the hobby is at risk of dealing with the consequences.

It is a safe assumption in almost any endeavor that a regulation that applies to what you are doing is not designed to work in your favor. It is designed to cover the behind of whatever bureaucrat is responsible for administering it. When the chips are down, friendly regulators will very rapidly move to solidify their own position, and that is very likely going to be at your expense. Don't assume that anyone else can absolve you of responsibility for anything. There are laws in this country which can send you to prison for having failed to notice that someone else, in another country, was very likely engaging in practices that may be legal there but which are considered unethical here, because you should have guessed. If you don't believe me, look up the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

I say all this for your own protection, really. I certainly wish you all the best and look forward to hearing more about your flights.

OK... clarification of that statement. What I should have said is "I am allowed to fly under the direct supervision of a certified adult assuming that he/she signs off on the flight card assuming responsibility for the flight". This is what has always been done for any of my flights.

grouch said:

To the OP, this isn't a NAR rule. It's federal. Go into your local gun store and try to buy a pound of black powder. I bet they say no and refer to some stupid law too. Just be happy with the toys you can play with. There is so many cool things you can do with G power alone. You can spend the sum total of your rocketry life and not run out of things to do with a G.




Because I am addicted, this is coming from my phone.

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I think you are missing the point... It's not like I am the one who is buying the BP. I would have an adult buy and handle it for me. When I build a rocket that uses electronic deployment charges, that my MENTOR handles, why would it be an issue. Is it bothering you that I say it's my rocket??? What am I supposed to do? Maybe it's just me, but I am not only satisfied with a G motor. I think many adults on here will be having a fit because I am bringing two new rockets to LDRS, and guess what??? They both have deployment charges. Hate to break it to you but I don't think you are in any position to be telling us that we need to be happy with the "toys we have". Trust me, I don't want to become hated on the forum for getting in an argument, but I think there is a point when the rules become outrageous and too strictly enforced.

codysmith said:

I think you are missing the point... It's not like I am the one who is buying the BP. I would have an adult buy and handle it for me. When I build a rocket that uses electronic deployment charges, that my MENTOR handles, why would it be an issue. Is it bothering you that I say it's my rocket??? What am I supposed to do? Maybe it's just me, but I am not only satisfied with a G motor. I think many adults on here will be having a fit because I am bringing two new rockets to LDRS, and guess what??? They both have deployment charges. Hate to break it to you but I don't think you are in any position to be telling us that we need to be happy with the "toys we have". Trust me, I don't want to become hated on the forum for getting in an argument, but I think there is a point when the rules become outrageous and too strictly enforced.

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There is also a point where you are acting selfishly by flouting the rules and jeopardizing the hobby.

I have generally thought the junior cert program was a good idea, but I must admit you are giving me doubts. Serious ones. Your attitude of entitlement and casual disregard for the interests and well being of others displays a lack of maturity which is alarming when combined with high power rocketry.

I don't personally give a rats behind what you think I or anyone else is in a position to do. You are acting in a willfully irresponsible manner.




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blackbrandt said:

OK... clarification of that statement. What I should have said is "I am allowed to fly under the direct supervision of a certified adult assuming that he/she signs off on the flight card assuming responsibility for the flight". This is what has always been done for any of my flights.

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Fine.


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wfcook said:

There is also a point where you are acting selfishly by flouting the rules and jeopardizing the hobby.

I have generally thought the junior cert program was a good idea, but I must admit you are giving me doubts. Serious ones. Your attitude of entitlement and casual disregard for the interests and well being of others displays a lack of maturity which is alarming when combined with high power rocketry.

I don't personally give a rats behind what you think I or anyone else is in a position to do. You are acting in a willfully irresponsible manner.


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And will you tell me how I am acting selfish or in a willfully irresponsible manner? All I'm saying, is that I don't see why we can't have DD flights when set up with a mentor. Also, sorry I'm giving you doubts about the JR. cert. program. Honestly, you are giving me doubts about the openness and kindness of the people in our hobby. I am not putting anyone in danger by having a DD flight anymore than you or anyone else is. End of Story

codysmith said:

And will you tell me how I am acting selfish or in a willfully irresponsible manner? All I'm saying, is that I don't see why we can't have DD flights when set up with a mentor. Also, sorry I'm giving you doubts about the JR. cert. program. Honestly, you are giving me doubts about the openness and kindness of the people in our hobby. I am not putting anyone in danger by having a DD flight anymore than you or anyone else is. End of Story

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You are being selfish and irresponsible by saying, in effect, screw the rules you are going to do whatever you want and you don't care.

Is that not obvious and clear?

If you think I am not being generous by endorsing that then, well, tough. I am about as liberal as it gets when it comes to letting people fly rockets, but you wish to be able to publicly announce your intention to jeopardize the hobby and have nobody object.

I don't see why you shouldn't be able to fly DD. But I don't make the rules. I just have to live with the consequences of your actions.

I have generously tried to offer some advice which, in case you haven't noticed, basically amounts to "stop announcing on a public forum that you don't give a damn about the legal implications of your actions." If this is where you draw a line in the sand then you have a lot of emotional growing to do.


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codysmith said:

Now,this is going to sound worse than I want it to but, who really cares? I have never heard or anyone actually enforcing that rule. At my club, minors fly with electronics all the time. I plan to start soon as well. "due to the regulatory requirements of ejection charges" , So what? I get someone else at my club to store my black powder. Go for it David, if you want to build a DD rocket, nobody is gonna stop you from flying it. Honestly, most of the rules are stupid and aren't enforced. I don't even see why there has to be an age limit on most things. We have to have an adult sponsor anyways that puts their name on the flight card, they are over 18 and they can use DD whenever they want.

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I haven't been a minor for longer than I was a minor, and I have to agree with Cody. HPR can be hazardous, and as such, we require minors to have a major (opposite of minor) sign off. I see no reason why the adult can't supervise. If a kid can shoot a gun (preferably with an adult, but not required), why can't they load BP with adult supervision.

Using Cody as an example. Currently he can't technically do BP DD. Assuming he follows the rules, he will get no experience with DD from an experienced adult. When he turns 18, he will be itching to fly w/o an adult over his shoulder, and be itching to do DD. But he will not have the benefit of having had someone show him the ropes. I wish HPR Juniors could do DD with their supervising adult. They get to learn DD while having someone show them the ropes of safely handling BP. Just like when you're learning to drive. The adult shows you how to safely handle the deadly weapon (AKA: the car).

CZ Brat said:

I haven't been a minor for longer than I was a minor, and I have to agree with Cody. HPR can be hazardous, and as such, we require minors to have a major (opposite of minor) sign off. I see no reason why the adult can't supervise. If a kid can shoot a gun (preferably with an adult, but not required), why can't they load BP with adult supervision.

Using Cody as an example. Currently he can't technically do BP DD. Assuming he follows the rules, he will get no experience with DD from an experienced adult. When he turns 18, he will be itching to fly w/o an adult over his shoulder, and be itching to do DD. But he will not have the benefit of having had someone show him the ropes. I wish HPR Juniors could do DD with their supervising adult. They get to learn DD while having someone show them the ropes of safely handling BP. Just like when you're learning to drive. The adult shows you how to safely handle the deadly weapon (AKA: the car).

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I am not disputing what he SHOULD be allowed to do. I am questioning the wisdom of flagrantly announcing his intention to break the existing rules and then doing so.

Are you seriously suggesting that the policy ought to be that he can do whatever he feels he should be able to regardless if the rules?

I would be all for changes to the applicable laws that would allow the rules to be changed. But until you can successfully lobby your representatives to change the law, I maintain that it is unwise to have a policy of openly flouting the rules in an open forum.



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Arguing with a child is like arguing with a turnip. You know you are going to win but you look like a fool when you do it.


Because I am addicted, this is coming from my phone.

grouch said:

Arguing with a child is like arguing with a turnip. You know you are going to win but you look like a fool when you do it.


Because I am addicted, this is coming from my phone.

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Point taken.


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grouch said:

Arguing with a child is like arguing with a turnip. You know you are going to win but you look like a fool when you do it.


Because I am addicted, this is coming from my phone.

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Couldn't have said it better :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

codysmith said:

And will you tell me how I am acting selfish or in a willfully irresponsible manner? All I'm saying, is that I don't see why we can't have DD flights when set up with a mentor. Also, sorry I'm giving you doubts about the JR. cert. program. Honestly, you are giving me doubts about the openness and kindness of the people in our hobby. I am not putting anyone in danger by having a DD flight anymore than you or anyone else is. End of Story

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This is how......

While it may not make any sense to you, at a NAR sanctioned launch, you can't use electronic deployment because it violates NAR rules. If you do, and there is an accident, your mentor, as the flight card signatory, is personally liable for any damages as NAR insurance does not cover your willful violation of the rules.

TRA has different rules and different insurance. You can build your rocket and have your TRA mentor prepare your motor and your deployment charges at a TRA sanctioned launch under TRA rules. As the flight card signatory, your mentor assumes all liability for the flight. If there is an accident, his TRA insurance is valid, but only at a TRA sanctioned launch.

There is no Jr. HP participation reciprocity between NAR and TRA so you can't use your TRA HP participation status at a NAR launch. Your TRA mentor's insurance is not be valid at a NAR sanctioned launch because your activity violates NAR rules so he would be personally liable for any accident that occurs at a NAR launch.

End of story.

Bob

Quote Originally Posted by grouch View Post
Arguing with a child is like arguing with a turnip. You know you are going to win but you look like a fool when you do it.


Because I am addicted, this is coming from my phone.

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Was that addressed to me?

littlemisterbig said:

Was that addressed to me?

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I don't think so... I think that was more directed towards Wfcook and I

littlemisterbig said:

Was that addressed to me?

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I don't believe it was


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codysmith said:

I don't think so... I think that was more directed towards Wfcook and I

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That's "wfcook and me"

Just pulling your chain there.

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wfcook said:

That's "wfcook and me"


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Click to expand...

correct....