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Woody's Workshop

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Just letting everyone know I'm talking to a friend with Estes this weekend.
There has been some chatter about 2 vs 3 pack eingines, not enough 24 pack varietys, rockets of old, etc.
I plan on striking up my own conversation about my own points of interest and see where it goes.

If anyone wanting me to bring something of "Real & Practicle" during this chat...
You can post here, though I may not get it in time.
I would prefer a PM. That way they are all in one spot.
You may post here and send PM by all means!

But please, keep in mind this is going to a friendship / business conversation.
So lets keep within the realm of practicality, K?

I will not be able to give any kind of answers of coarse, he isn't the director.
However, he has influence. Perhaps he can perswade sales, or expand, into the "Hobby Shop" category a little heavier.
And leave the fly once, forget it stuff at the big box stores. Something along that line.
Of coarse, venders input would be most welcome if they would come forth and state they could buy / sell 10 times the engines in bulk packs.
But any area is up for discussion.
I know one very important question I am going to ask him to take to the table which will benefit all of us. Has nothing to do with Estes itself.
Will see how that goes.

Looking to hear from anyone with worth while idea's and/or suggestions.
 
For the non-mailable motors, Estes should consider 6, 12 and/or 24 packs. The list price of an E and F motor is $11.50 and $13.50 respectively, and in a 2 pack the hazmat fee and regular shipping costs are $35.50 which is more than the cost of a pack of motors. I have to believe that in quantities of 6, 12 and/or 24, the list price could be reduced slightly as the number of packages are reduced but the shipping costs would not be effected. They would sell more and get rid of the bad PR they got from the previous contorted on-lime pricing scheme.

Bob
 
I would definitely buy 24mm bulk packs, a mix of D & Es would be perfect.
 
For the non-mailable motors, Estes should consider 6, 12 and/or 24 packs. The list price of an E and F motor is $11.50 and $13.50 respectively, and in a 2 pack the hazmat fee and regular shipping costs are $35.50 which is more than the cost of a pack of motors. I have to believe that in quantities of 6, 12 and/or 24, the list price could be reduced slightly as the number of packages are reduced but the shipping costs would not be effected. They would sell more and get rid of the bad PR they got from the previous contorted on-lime pricing scheme.

Bob

Bob, we have to be realistic. As much as you and I would like bulk packs like this, "we" are such a small part of the overall customer base that it wouldn't make good sense. I think the real idea is for us to buy these motors from local hobby shops. Now the disappointing part of that is few LHS carry rockets and those that do, don't have much. Not to hijack this thread, but LHS are at fault for this. If you know your products, and stock them well, they will sell. I've been there. Estes would greatly anger what's left of their entire hobby supply chain if they offered big discounted bulk packs.

If you are looking for a good price, they are out there. For E & F motors I typically will order a dozen or so packs a year from https://www.acsupplyco.com taking advantage of their always 40% off discount and free shipping over $100. A dozen packs of assorted sizes brings the hazmat charge down to less than $1 a motor (a motor that is already 40% off retail).


As for questions for Estes I'd like to see more nosecones available separately or in packs. Everything else is relatively easy to come by.



Jerome
 
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Buy motors from “Local” hobby shops?

You’re kidding right?

140 miles to my “Local” hobby shop and that’s ONE WAY!!

Mail-order is the only way I can purchase my motor needs and I flat-out don’t believe that those of us that would like to buy “D” and “E” motors in bulk packs make up such a small percentage of Estes’ customer base (For motors) that it would not be profitable for Estes to produce those wanted bulk packs.

I go through at least one bulk pack each of B6-4 and C6-5 motors every year with another bulk pack of Estes’ B6-0/B6-6 combo. What I would do for a C6-0/C6-7 combo bulk pack.

Maybe,( maybe) 24 of the 24mm motors would be a bit much but 12 packs would be nice.
 
I'd like to give them a compliment. Recently, I discovered that new three-packs of motors include recovery wadding as well as the starters, plastic plugs and the motors. I think this is smart marketing, as it allows the new consumer to get everything additional that they need when buying motors for their rocket. I always found the separate packaging of recovery wadding to be over-priced and leads to seeking an alternative.

So, please compliment whoever decided to include the wadding with the motors... even if the price increased a little to cover it.
 
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They may already be doing this, but an extra starter (4 in a 3 pack, 5 in a 4 pack of mini's) would be nice. I REEEEALLLY like the extra starters that get packed in the 24 engine bulk packs (last one i got 5 packs of 6 for 30 starters with 24 engines.). I think especially for beginners with a three pack, you are kinda hosed if you only have one starter per engine and you mess it up. Not knocking the reliability, but misfires happen.

Also, is Estes doing anything with MicroMaxx?
 
E motors that do not Cato?


Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
Congratulate them on the motor retainers. They're ugly but the price is right...
 
Tell them to buy Semroc.

Hmmmm... very interesting idea...

No this is a terrible idea. While I really like Estes, in their current business model, they are not able to operate a business in the way Semroc was operated. There is way too much overhead with the "small batch" / "custom kit" model for Estes to handle. The end result would be unfortunate unless there was a significant investment in ensuring that the Semroc legacy lived on even if that meant on very slim margins or possibly at a loss. Estes/Hobbico would not do that.

To me it is like the difference between a large commercial beer ("Budweiser") versus your local craft brewery ("The Alchemist"). Both make beer, both serve two distinct needs in the market but their methods are completely incompatible. (and don't get me started on "faux-craft" beers that the big breweries try to pawn off as craft beer....)
 
Mail-order is the only way I can purchase my motor needs and I flat-out don’t believe that those of us that would like to buy “D” and “E” motors in bulk packs make up such a small percentage of Estes’ customer base (For motors) that it would not be profitable for Estes to produce those wanted bulk packs.

Believe it.

We BARs/'hard-core' rocket hobbyists make up 1% to 2% of Estes motor sales at most. :(

Wal-Mart, Hobby Lobby and Great Planes along with other hobby distributors account for over 90% of Estes sales.
 
Woody,

Please be sure to spend most of the time with your Estes 'friend' talking about non-rocket stuff.
For that person 'Estes' is their job and no-one wants to talk about their job all the time.

Enjoy the time with your friend. :)
 
Believe it.

We BARs/'hard-core' rocket hobbyists make up 1% to 2% of Estes motor sales at most. :(

Wal-Mart, Hobby Lobby and Great Planes along with other hobby distributors account for over 90% of Estes sales.

And hard core BARs don’t buy our motors from Wal-Mart, Great Planes and various discount e-tailers such as Hobbylinc?

Of course we do, so how does Estes determine whether 90% of their motor sales is going to US or the “Toy rocket crowd”?

I guess the real question is whether Estes is catering to the hobbyist or the toy rocket buyer. If the latter then we desperately need a new manufacturer of BP motors to enter the market.
 
And hard core BARs don’t buy our motors from Wal-Mart, Great Planes and various discount e-tailers such as Hobbylinc?

Of course we do, so how does Estes determine whether 90% of their motor sales is going to US or the “Toy rocket crowd”?

I guess the real question is whether Estes is catering to the hobbyist or the toy rocket buyer. If the latter then we desperately need a new manufacturer of BP motors to enter the market.

Estes sells only a very small percentage of their products directly to the end-user and that's by mail-order.

Estes sells most of their products to mass-market retailers (Wal-Mart, Hobby Lobby) and hobby distributors (Great Planes, California Hobby Distributors, etc.).

It's been this way since the late-1960s/early 1970s and really became the preferred model in the 1980s when the mega-hoby distributors (Hobbico/Great Planes, Horizon Hobby Distributors, United Model Distributors and Hobby Dynamics appeared). Hobby shops buy from hobby distributors. If a hobby distributor doesn't carry a product then the hobby shop cannot order/stock/sell it. Hobby distributors are the most important part of the hobby industry.

I received quite a lesson in this when I worked for AeroTech.
Trying to sell directly to individual hobby shops did not work as most hobby shops had accounts with one or more of the major hobby distributors and if the shop couldn't buy a product from a distributor then it would not be ordered.
We learned some hard lessons back in 1989-1990 as AeroTech went from direct sales to sales to hobby distributors.
I was in-charge of getting all this to work.
First, we had to accept 'industry-standard' discount rates on products sold to distributors. This was usually 52% off of SRP along with an additional discount for the distributor if they paid the bill in less than ten days (An extra 2% discount). Don't forget the required 'Show Special' discount that must be offered when attending a major hobby show (RCHTA/IHobby) and making sales (Another 2%-5% up front)
Then there were the Sales Representatives that had to be hired to promote your product line to hobby distributors and take their orders. They got a cut of the pie, usually 5% commission.
(Thankfully, Sales Representatives disappered/phased out about 10-15 years ago when hobby distributors became computerized and could automatically place re-orders).

Then there was liability insurance. No hobby distributor would/will buy your product (Especially 'dangerous' model rockets) without the insurance coverage. The amount for this insurance coverage was unbelievable!
AeroTech had an immediate product price increase after the first RCHTA Show we attended otherwise the company would have to give up on getting the product line into hobby stores.

Now, why would any hobby manufacturer put up with this? Easy. There's a lot of $$$$!!
These big hobby distributors buy in case lots. Not one or two cases but dozens or hundreds of EACH item!
Plus, they deal with all the shipping/billing/payment from individual hobby shops. The hobby manufacturer just has to deal with a few huge orders every month or two and billing the distributors.

This is the current system for the mainline hobby industry.

An order or lack of order from a hobby distributor can doom a product or even an entire manufacturer.
If Wal-Mart wants RTF/ARF models and motor packs which sell for less than $10 then the manufacturer better do it or lose millions of dollars in sales to Wal-Mart.

That's the way it is now.

'Hobbyists' have little or no say in product development.
 
Bring back the Space Shuttle full stack, Saturn V, and the other NASA models! :)
It may not be realistic, but sure makes me smile thinking about it.
 
Estes sells only a very small percentage of their products directly to the end-user and that's by mail-order.

Estes sells most of their products to mass-market retailers (Wal-Mart, Hobby Lobby) and hobby distributors (Great Planes, California Hobby Distributors, etc.).

It's been this way since the late-1960s/early 1970s and really became the preferred model in the 1980s when the mega-hoby distributors (Hobbico/Great Planes, Horizon Hobby Distributors, United Model Distributors and Hobby Dynamics appeared). Hobby shops buy from hobby distributors. If a hobby distributor doesn't carry a product then the hobby shop cannot order/stock/sell it. Hobby distributors are the most important part of the hobby industry.

I received quite a lesson in this when I worked for AeroTech.
Trying to sell directly to individual hobby shops did not work as most hobby shops had accounts with one or more of the major hobby distributors and if the shop couldn't buy a product from a distributor then it would not be ordered.
We learned some hard lessons back in 1989-1990 as AeroTech went from direct sales to sales to hobby distributors.
I was in-charge of getting all this to work.
First, we had to accept 'industry-standard' discount rates on products sold to distributors. This was usually 52% off of SRP along with an additional discount for the distributor if they paid the bill in less than ten days (An extra 2% discount). Don't forget the required 'Show Special' discount that must be offered when attending a major hobby show (RCHTA/IHobby) and making sales (Another 2%-5% up front)
Then there were the Sales Representatives that had to be hired to promote your product line to hobby distributors and take their orders. They got a cut of the pie, usually 5% commission.
(Thankfully, Sales Representatives disappered/phased out about 10-15 years ago when hobby distributors became computerized and could automatically place re-orders).

Then there was liability insurance. No hobby distributor would/will buy your product (Especially 'dangerous' model rockets) without the insurance coverage. The amount for this insurance coverage was unbelievable!
AeroTech had an immediate product price increase after the first RCHTA Show we attended otherwise the company would have to give up on getting the product line into hobby stores.

Now, why would any hobby manufacturer put up with this? Easy. There's a lot of $$$$!!
These big hobby distributors buy in case lots. Not one or two cases but dozens or hundreds of EACH item!
Plus, they deal with all the shipping/billing/payment from individual hobby shops. The hobby manufacturer just has to deal with a few huge orders every month or two and billing the distributors.

This is the current system for the mainline hobby industry.

An order or lack of order from a hobby distributor can doom a product or even an entire manufacturer.
If Wal-Mart wants RTF/ARF models and motor packs which sell for less than $10 then the manufacturer better do it or lose millions of dollars in sales to Wal-Mart.

That's the way it is now.

'Hobbyists' have little or no say in product development.

I rember going through the same things with Starlight. Then add the threat of lead testing every kit at $3,500 a pop multiply that by 24 kits I manufactured.
Mr. Bob
Countyline Hobbies
Grovertown, IN.
 
My thought on all this:

Hats off to Estes for surviving this long, and I think they are already well-positioned for the current economic environment in terms of distribution strategy and product development.

All I really care about is that they continue to manufacture engines. I'm a LPR + occasional E engine guy... never flown more than an E, and no plans to, based on the fields I have easy access to.

Of course I'd like to get engines more easily in lower cost bulk packs, but for me, really, the engines aren't THAT big a part of my hobby expenditure. There's all the parts & kits I buy (and, once in a while, build), storage units for all the unbuilt kits ( :bangpan: ) paints, glues, retrofit parts like Kevlar and swivels, tools and stuff I use to make jigs, things I buy for the wife to distract her from my rocketry purchases, cost of driving to club launch... I don't get too worked up over the price of a B6-4 engine.

It's all good. Estes has adapted to the times, and right now that means focusing on the low-end casual flyers. That supports the volume that allows the hobby to exist for us. Fine by me.

Marc
 
It's all good. Estes has adapted to the times, and right now that means focusing on the low-end casual flyers. That supports the volume that allows the hobby to exist for us. Fine by me.
I'm happy with Estes. The recent run of "classic kits," the massive discount online sales, the new 29mm motors, supporting NARAM every year, the customer support.... I could go on. Thanks, Estes!
 
Woody,

Please be sure to spend most of the time with your Estes 'friend' talking about non-rocket stuff.
For that person 'Estes' is their job and no-one wants to talk about their job all the time.

Enjoy the time with your friend. :)

We will, but we always talk shop. He takes things and brings them to the big table. Customer input is what drives a business to produce and deliver what is wanted, along where the "Big Buck" lays.
Thank you kindly for input, it's nice jesture here, where we all seam to "Talk Shop"
 
Packaging and Transit costs is what is driving things.
This IS #1 on the list. A cardboard box containing 24 engines is about the same price as a posterboard back sealed with a blister front.
I believe the big box stores and hobby stores alike should carry as they do now for those whom only buy what they need at that time.
I also believe for us die hards that like to keep our own stock and buy in bulk, we can get that a dedicated hobby shops.
And the shipping charge, with the way motors are packaged now is just an influence to buy more at a time, giving you the availability of several ranges of motors.
We'll all see what happens in the future. I'm sure 2015 is already in the books, so don't look for anything soon.
 
Feedback so far is as expected.
These issues I'm sure have already been considered.
Bulk engine packs were originally deployed for school groups in science class.
That has not kept up with the way things are now I don't think.
But please, dig deeper into the mind and think of something more along the lines of how and what you would do if YOU were Estes.
That is what is going be the attention grabber.
Like, bring back the "Design of the month contest" & "EAC with the Viper Kit", T-shirt decals and all.
I know in my day, that was a huge pride factor. Space travel now is as common as driving to the store.
But not back in the 60's and early 70's. Gave a kid something to work for in the hobby, not just the flight of it.
Something that would grab more of the publics interest in young people to rocketry that isn't doing it right now.
 
LW and I used to walk from our North Charlotte neighborhood, to a LHS called Science Hobbies. That was a great store. Not only did they have science project kits designed for fun and science fairs in school, they would cut geodes on site, and chemistry equipment for days on, they also had every known part Estes made, FOR SALE! Including every single kit available. It was a crafters oasis. I really do miss that kind of hobby store and I am certain they have no clue as to how much they are missed. LHS these days are lucky to survive, given how marketing has changed so much. There was a certain joy factor with having the few bucks you earned from mowing lawns, and being able to use that bit-o-cash, to buy the parts for your next scratch build. Change sucks.
 
LW and I used to walk from our North Charlotte neighborhood, to a LHS called Science Hobbies. That was a great store. Not only did they have science project kits designed for fun and science fairs in school, they would cut geodes on site, and chemistry equipment for days on, they also had every known part Estes made, FOR SALE! Including every single kit available. It was a crafters oasis. I really do miss that kind of hobby store and I am certain they have no clue as to how much they are missed. LHS these days are lucky to survive, given how marketing has changed so much. There was a certain joy factor with having the few bucks you earned from mowing lawns, and being able to use that bit-o-cash, to buy the parts for your next scratch build. Change sucks.

AMEN to mowing yards!!! And that's where it all began. My dad as a rural route carrier for the post offiece got me lawn mowing jogs for money, so I could give it him to deposit in his checking account so he could wright a check to Vern. And I thouht I was the only one that done that....
 
Love to see more of the old scale and semi scale models. They can call them NASA classics and lead up to whatever we will be flying in a few years. I always looked forward to those models. LTV Scout, Scud, little Joe II, Mercury redstone, etc. love to see a Saturn V reissue.

Yes, I know the Scud is a Russian ballistic missile but it was a good model of it 😜


Launching rockets (or missiles in my case) is so easy a chimp could do it. Read a step, do a step, eat a banana.

Sent from my iPad Air using Rocketry Forum.
 
Love to see more of the old scale and semi scale models. They can call them NASA classics and lead up to whatever we will be flying in a few years. I always looked forward to those models. LTV Scout, Scud, little Joe II, Mercury redstone, etc. love to see a Saturn V reissue.

Yes, I know the Scud is a Russian ballistic missile but it was a good model of it ��


Launching rockets (or missiles in my case) is so easy a chimp could do it. Read a step, do a step, eat a banana.

Sent from my iPad Air using Rocketry Forum.

Well you took the words out me !
But I would change it a bit and convert them to the pro Series !
A 4" fat boy would be cool!
 
My thought on all this:

Hats off to Estes for surviving this long, and I think they are already well-positioned for the current economic environment in terms of distribution strategy and product development.

All I really care about is that they continue to manufacture engines. I'm a LPR + occasional E engine guy... never flown more than an E, and no plans to, based on the fields I have easy access to.

Of course I'd like to get engines more easily in lower cost bulk packs, but for me, really, the engines aren't THAT big a part of my hobby expenditure. There's all the parts & kits I buy (and, once in a while, build), storage units for all the unbuilt kits ( :bangpan: ) paints, glues, retrofit parts like Kevlar and swivels, tools and stuff I use to make jigs, things I buy for the wife to distract her from my rocketry purchases, cost of driving to club launch... I don't get too worked up over the price of a B6-4 engine.

It's all good. Estes has adapted to the times, and right now that means focusing on the low-end casual flyers. That supports the volume that allows the hobby to exist for us. Fine by me.

Marc

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

I have to say I like how they're taking some risks with things like higher power ATF/RTF rockets.

Honestly, to an extent I think we are not the people to ask about how to catch and keep people in the hobby. We are the old heads. Who they need advice from are the youngsters out there today.

Younger folks are obviously more technologically oriented. Here is a way to combine that and the hobby:

Come up with an "ATF Designer's Special". It would contain a modular rocketry parts assortment...fins, body tubes, nose cones, etc. However, finishing would be at a minimum (ie colored plastic, body tubes,...no balsa, sanding, etc). The fins would be of different shapes and use a 'slotted' setup.

In combination with this, release (for free) a tablet based app that would allow you to basically mix and match the parts in the ATF Designers Special. It would basically be a VERY simple version of Rocksim/Open Rocket, using pre defined parts. It would show if the rocket is stable, tell you how high the rocket would go, see if that chute is big enough, list the recommended engines but still allow you to test other engines. It could even do an animated flight sequence, with views from the ground, the rocket, etc. Those of you who play KSP would have an idea on how the virtual 'building' and flying part would look like and work.

After the designing phase, if the rocket is good for flight, the program would create either a file that would have instructions on how to build the rocket (either view it on the tablet or email a PDF file to be printed).

It would be a great way to bridge the gap between the virtual and real. Think about it, a kid designs a rocket on the computer and then gets to build and fly it in real life. You could even include an Estes altimeter of some sort to get altitude data. It would basically be something like Lego, but with stuff that actually flies!

The trick of course is to keep the program and ATF Designers Special simple and accessible without being excessively limiting. Remember, before you pass judgment, this would NOT be for us...but for those kids to ease them into the building part of the hobby.

FC
 
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