BRING BACK THE B14 MOTOR

Gary Byrum · Oct 21, 2014

I'm not really sure why this motor went by the wayside, but as a kid, I remember these were some of the best B motors Estes ever produced. I would especially like to see them come back with a B14-0. I was thrilled when LW handed me a pack of B14-0's at the last launch, and being a Centuri motor, it didn't have quite the impulse we expected. I flew a 3 stage rocket of my own design using the B14 for 1st, a B6 for 2nd, and a B6-6 for 3rd. The B14 was a really short burst, and left us scratching our heads. I'd never used one of those before and I didn't really know what to expect. The rocket flew fine, but I don't think it was any match for the Estes B14. Do you think if we barked loud enough, Estes will hear the call?

[video=youtube;_SniHp43Qac]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SniHp43Qac&feature=youtu.be[/video]

shreadvector · Oct 21, 2014

Estes has answered this question with clear reasons why it will not return. Look on YORF and search for the numerous threads.

cwbullet · Oct 21, 2014

Too bad. It was a great motor in its day. Quick thrust.

5x7 · Oct 21, 2014

Manufacturing originally was done by drilling a core in the propellant. Time consuming and dangerous. Cool motor, the Warp 9 of the day.

Gary Byrum · Oct 21, 2014

shreadvector said:
Estes has answered this question with clear reasons why it will not return. Look on YORF and search for the numerous threads.

I planted my question right where I wanted it. But thank you for you resourceful input.

JStarStar · Oct 22, 2014

actually, it probably did have the proper impulse: people don't realize how short the boost phase is for most motors, and it's even shorter with the B14. Staging rarely takes place more than 20-30 feet off the ground.

I have probably the world's biggest stash of B14s in my basement -- I bought a cartonload of them (72 diamond 3-packs plus about 20 loose packs so about 250 motors in total) a few years ago, so I launch a few of them every year.

I'd love it if Estes would start making them again, along with their theoretical-only big brothers, the C20s, but they have made pretty clear over the decades they do not consider them cost-effective. They would be real useful in launching heavier multi-stage models.

cwbullet · Oct 22, 2014

C20s were great too. I had two in my motor box at home when I left for college. I never used it. I suspect it was disposed over the the years.

cvanc · Oct 22, 2014

Wait -- the C20 actually existed? I did not know that.

dpower · Oct 22, 2014

Yep, there's a bunch of us that would like to see the B14-0, for boosting small, but heavy 3-stagers. It went by the wayside due to manufacturing challenges. Given the issues with manufacturing a B14 motor, I wonder how feasible a 24mm version would be, essentially a reduced impulse C11? Looking at the thrust curve, this would result in something around a B14-B15.

We could then still launch (modified 1st stage) Estes Farside clones, Centuri T-Bird clones, etc., on small fields.

shreadvector · Oct 22, 2014

The C11-0 fits perfectly in a Faside or other BT-50 sized booster stage without the motor mount - just like the Comanche 3 first stage.

You really want vent holes with the C11-0 if you cannot tape it to the next stage motor with cellophane tape as the large volume of cold air inside will result in failures to ignite the next stage in models where there is a gap or nothing holding the stages together semi-tightly. This is why the C11-0 fails to work most of the time when used in the Booster-55 or Booster-60 and they only recommend the D12-0 for those products.

Gary Byrum · Oct 22, 2014

Oh....btw, for what it's worth, I used "tried & true" pop & go staging in the video. In fact, every staged rocket I ever built used pop & go. Except for the few failed attempts to tape them together.

RoyAtl · Oct 22, 2014

Remember that there were two different "B14" motors (not Estes and Centuri, because Estes made them).

1. deep pressed core, wide nozzle, with a deeper drilled core in post-production ----- This is the 'classic' B14, (and pre-metric B3) which was made through sometime in 1974.

2. deeper pressed core, smaller nozzle, no post-production. ----- This was labeled B14 originally, but was closer to a 8ns average thrust, and in 1980 officially became the B8. A C version of it, introduced in 1977, was the C5-3. By the '90's it had been tuned down a bit.
Manufacturing problems also doomed this one; the taller pintle used in the machines was apparently prone to breaking, leading to maintenance hassles. I've also heard that, if it didn't break, the tip of the pintle could chip, leading to some sort of stress point in finished motors that could lead to a cato after the motors had dried out a few months.

shreadvector · Oct 22, 2014

C5-3 motors from year code "X" had the post-production cracking problem and they had an extremely high cato rate.

Other C5 motors from other years still work perfectly even decades later (and are great to use in the expired motor testing program).

https://www.nar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/NAR-Expired-Motor-Testing-Program.pdf

RoyAtl said:
Remember that there were two different "B14" motors (not Estes and Centuri, because Estes made them).

1. deep pressed core, wide nozzle, with a deeper drilled core in post-production ----- This is the 'classic' B14, (and pre-metric B3) which was made through sometime in 1974.

2. deeper pressed core, smaller nozzle, no post-production. ----- This was labeled B14 originally, but was closer to a 8ns average thrust, and in 1980 officially became the B8. A C version of it, introduced in 1977, was the C5-3. By the '90's it had been tuned down a bit.
Manufacturing problems also doomed this one; the taller pintle used in the machines was apparently prone to breaking, leading to maintenance hassles. I've also heard that, if it didn't break, the tip of the pintle could chip, leading to some sort of stress point in finished motors that could lead to a cato after the motors had dried out a few months.

Initiator001 · Oct 22, 2014

The B14/B8 motors had more involved/difficult production issues which caused their pricing to be higher than other 'B' motors (B4, B6).

I worked in two hobby shops many years ago. One in the mid-1980s and the other in early 1990s.

Both stores carried B8 motors.

I couldn't give away B8 motors.

Their price was twenty to fourty cents more per package than B4/B6 motors and customers would not buy them for that reason.
I had several customers comment to me that rocketry was suppose to be a 'cheap' hobby and they would not pay more for the B8 motors.

During the 1990s Estes left the B8 motor off the facer card of new kits. When my store was out of the proper delay B4-4/B6-4 motor I would suggest the B8-5. Customers would decline as the B8 motor was not listed on the facer card.

Between production issues and low sales volume this is what ended the B14/B8 motor lines.

Initiator001 · Oct 22, 2014

(Double post)

Rocketjunkie · Oct 22, 2014

I saw the flight and the motor in Gary's rocket. The first stage did have the short burn of a B14 but not the total impulse. Staging was barely above the rod. The nozzle was no larger than a B6 but the core was deeper.

RoyAtl · Oct 22, 2014

Rocketjunkie said:
I saw the flight and the motor in Gary's rocket. The first stage did have the short burn of a B14 but not the total impulse. Staging was barely above the rod. The nozzle was no larger than a B6 but the core was deeper.

Then that would probably be the later version, which was more of a B8. I timed the first stage to be approx. 0.6 seconds burn, which would be the norm for the B8 (the two B6's timed out just longer than a second each, which is a little longer than the last certified duration I saw, which was just under a second). Still, you have to consider that the first motor was having to lift two stages of dead weight in addition to its own. Would a B6-0 in the lower stage have been as effective?
[edit: the apparent additional time was probably due to speed of sound]

Bazookadale · Oct 22, 2014

Bob - if you still have B8 motors you can give them to me

Initiator001 said:
I worked in two hobby shops many years ago. One in the mid-1980s and the other in early 1990s.

Both stores carried B8 motors.

I couldn't give away B8 motors.

.

Gary Byrum · Oct 22, 2014

RoyAtl said:
Would a B6-0 in the lower stage have been as effective?

That's what I had planned to do until LW gave me those B14's. We both thought that they would make for a really good 1st stage. At the pad, I burned out 2 starters because, I didn't have them all the way in. I thought they were, but apparently they was stopping at the bend in the starter. Tom showed me how deep that core was and reshaped the starter so it WOULD go all the way in. I had no idea they were that deep.

BRING BACK THE B14 MOTOR

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