Level 4 Certification?

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TheSamurai

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I've only been around HPR for 2 years now. I am currently only L1 certified and I have finished the L2 test.

My question is, should TRA or NAR consider making an L4?

My thought would be, the motor would still be in the M, N, or O range but would include a written test but more complex than the L2 test and maybe not multiple choice.

And for making the flight more difficult you could make a "height" requirement and perhaps require a multi-stage or cluster launch?

Just an idea I had the other day.

Has an L4 ever been discussed? Was there one previously?
 
And what would that prove, if you have done similar tasks already?
FYI: Canada already has a L4. which is equivalent to L3 .
They break it down differently.... L3 is: J to L in Canada

Back when the Certification system first started there was only 1 cert level.
You could certify on an H or a K.
M's weren't widely available yet.



JD
 
I don't know that it would "prove" anything necessarily. I'm just thinking that one way to keep people around in the hobby is to give them goals to achieve. Making more complex rockets and testing of knowledge is one way to do it. I'm not an L3 so I can't speak to the full knowledge of what that would mean but I am just throwing out ideas.
 
I've only been around HPR for 2 years now. I am currently only L1 certified and I have finished the L2 test.

My question is, should TRA or NAR consider making an L4?

My thought would be, the motor would still be in the M, N, or O range but would include a written test but more complex than the L2 test and maybe not multiple choice.

And for making the flight more difficult you could make a "height" requirement and perhaps require a multi-stage or cluster launch?

Just an idea I had the other day.

Has an L4 ever been discussed? Was there one previously?

When you are ready to go "beyond" a basic L3 - there is NAR "L3CC" and TRA "TAP"
 
Er, why? What would the purpose of it be? What benefit to the organization and membership?

-Kevin
 
The purpose of the certification levels is not to provide more challenges and keep interest alive by providing new milestones to cross off the list. The purpose is to demonstrate the nknowledge and experience to fly the next level of motor. The only reason to create a new level of certification would be if the current system did not cover the cover the current range sufficiently, or if new levels of motors became available that required new levels of certification.
 
There's only one man who has a Level 4 certification...

most_interesting_man.jpg
 
The purpose of the certification levels is not to provide more challenges and keep interest alive by providing new milestones to cross off the list. The purpose is to demonstrate the nknowledge and experience to fly the next level of motor. The only reason to create a new level of certification would be if the current system did not cover the cover the current range sufficiently, or if new levels of motors became available that required new levels of certification.

I agree with this but, have heard stories of people who have obtained an L3 but somehow did not understand things like building your N powered MD with a .7 stability margin was not a good idea. My thought is that an L3 certification should be scratch built so that it shows you understand how to design a rocket not just put a kit together. What we want to avoid is people making simple mistakes on very large and very powerful rockets when they should have learnt these lessons previously.
 
The purpose of the certification levels is not to provide more challenges and keep interest alive by providing new milestones to cross off the list. The purpose is to demonstrate the nknowledge and experience to fly the next level of motor. The only reason to create a new level of certification would be if the current system did not cover the cover the current range sufficiently, or if new levels of motors became available that required new levels of certification.

Without an NFPA change, you're not going to find certified motors above O.

The reality is the percentage of the hobby playing in the O+ range is small. Playing in that range is also very expensive.

No, we don't need another certification level.

-Kevin (5 Ps and a Q)
 
I have heard many arguments on both side of this coin and have to stick with the fact that we do not need another Certification Level.

While some of you think that you should have to build a scratch bird as your L3 (something I did for all of my certs), I do not feel that should be a requirement. I have seen more L3 done with kits than scratch and do not have a problem with that since not everyone wants to build kits and there are some that do not have the necessary tools to truly scratch build.

Like Kevin said, without a NFPA rewrite you will not see a certified O motor or above and I do not see that coming in the near future.

The current TRA and NAR system works. We do not need to over codify our hobby and adding another Certification Level is adding rules that we do not need.

Lets just work on keeping the hobby safe, family friendly and FUN.
 
Thanks for all the info guys.

So it sounds like doing a different cert. isn't a good idea or at least not supported by most.

From my perspective I was just looking at ideas for retention in the clubs. From people I have talked to, it sounds like once guys get to L3 they kind of drop off because they have done everything they need to do.

So I was just thinking of things the organizations could do to help keep people in.

The other idea I had was some sort of "Pin" system. Like the ones you can stick on a hat or shirt or whatever.

You could call them "High Power" pins and label them HP1, HP2, and HP3. Each pin would require you do construct and fly the rocket in a certain manner. Scratch built, to a certain hight, using X type of recovery, and so forth.

IDK, it's early and the ideas (good or bad) are always floating in my head. :D
 
I don't know that it would "prove" anything necessarily. I'm just thinking that one way to keep people around in the hobby is to give them goals to achieve. Making more complex rockets and testing of knowledge is one way to do it. I'm not an L3 so I can't speak to the full knowledge of what that would mean but I am just throwing out ideas.

Different people get into (and more importantly, stay into) this hobby for different reasons. Some take a very linear approach and step through the levels in short order without looking back. They've probably done that with many different hobbies or other aspects of their lives approaching each thing as something to be conquered and then move onto another target. There may be no way to keep them interested in one thing for the long term. Once they've achieved Level 3, they've finished.

Others will move up the certification levels but still enjoy lower powered flights and will try variations on rocket and motor combinations they've successfully flown just to see what happens. There's always some variable that can or will be changed (weather conditions spring to mind).

At the other end of the spectrum, there are those who buy a starter kit, fly it once and are never heard from again.

We can't retain everyone who tries this. Each person has to find their own reason to stay with the hobby. If you want to go beyond the level 3 flights, you can take it on as an individual or group of like-minded people; you'd likely need the resources of multiple people to accomplish many of these tasks, anyway. If you are looking for a different challenge within the hobby, try the NARTREK Skills Program.
 
They way the US does L1, L2, and L3 just plain works.

[/rant on/] It needs to go away, all of it. It's horsecrap and proves nothing but some people's need to be anal and in charge. It was a failed attempt to appease some unknown Gov entity and it was shoved down the membership's throat without a vote.

Please name me ONE other HOBBY that has ANYTHING like this. You can walk into any hobby store across the US and walk out with a 1/4 scale Piper Cub that will carry how much RDX into someone's bedroom window? 3rd level HO railroader? Model boat sailer 1st class?

Another point; how many 3 and out fliers do you know? Average member lasts 2-3 years and are gone. They get their 3rd level PhD., buy the pin and that's it. The 3 level process forces us all down the same basic path, my round peg is being hammered into a square hole.

It can be easily ditched, after all it only took a BoD vote to impose it[/rant off/]

If I ever ran for Tripoli BoD that would be my platform.
 
[/rant on/]Please name me ONE other HOBBY that has ANYTHING like this. You can walk into any hobby store across the US and walk out with a 1/4 scale Piper Cub that will carry how much RDX into someone's bedroom window? 3rd level HO railroader? Model boat sailer 1st class?

AMA Turbine Waiver

Oh, and if your objective is to provide fodder to the people who want to dump more regulations on us, consider your mission accomplished. Public statements like this do nothing to help our cause, or anyone else's.

-Kevin
 
From my perspective I was just looking at ideas for retention in the clubs. From people I have talked to, it sounds like once guys get to L3 they kind of drop off because they have done everything they need to do.

The people who get L3 and bail are often those going for certifications with more of a Merit Badge mentality -- they want the gold sticker, and that's their primary objective. Once they get it, they're done.

The other group that this happens to, in my experience, are those who think they need Level 3, and are flying beyond their budget. Once they drop the change on the rocket and flight, they find they've spent more than they can afford and they quit. A Level 3 flight, total cost on the pad, is typically north of $2000. People need to recognize that.

The other idea I had was some sort of "Pin" system. Like the ones you can stick on a hat or shirt or whatever.

-Kevin
 
Troj beat me to the AMA turbine waiver. There are separate ones for fixed and rotary winged aircraft. We also have different certification levels in scuba diving.
 
AMA Turbine Waiver

Oh, and if your objective is to provide fodder to the people who want to dump more regulations on us, consider your mission accomplished. Public statements like this do nothing to help our cause, or anyone else's.

-Kevin


What regulation are those, the NFPA ones where a certification system isn't mentioned? And what people could possibly take what I say and turn it into harsher regulation?

If you feel that some things need hidden then that's evidence that a light needs to be shined on it and exposed to the truth. If it can stand up to scrutiny then you're right but I'm betting.....
 
Either you grasp the nature of politics and the media, or you don't.
 
We also have different certification levels in scuba diving.

And WAY more than three. Open water I, Open Water II, Cave Diving, River Diving, Deep diving, mixed gas diving, rebreather cert, and I'm sure I'm missing some since I haven't done much diving since we had kids.
 
Either you grasp the nature of politics and the media, or you don't.

The media fear mongers and the politicians kneejerk? Is that close? And not having a cert level thing would increase their paranoia how? If someone fears what we do then no number of levels would satisfy them.
 
So, I've been here for three years now and the breadth of opportunities in this hobby still amazes me. As I peruse the forum I frequently find new ways of doing things, creative ideas for scratch builds, new commercial kits, electronics, and so on.... I'm a scientist at heart and for me, I see everything in here as something I have to try at least once and I have to understand how things work (a mindset that probably caused me some issues in my youth....and now). I've even made for myself an unofficial "road map" of what I'll try next. I see myself having fun for at least the next 10 years

Even given my self-fueled interest in this hobby I really like the idea of some sort of "challenge" or "pin" program, but it would probably need to be unofficial or maybe club based. For example: I could see a club championing the idea of their members trying clusters one year, maybe the next year setting an altitude record with a certain motor. Everyone who participates gets a pin or a patch or a sticker. IDK - just an idea - some clubs probably already do this. I really liked that last fall Wildman declared this year would be the year of the 2-stage. Challenge accepted - I have four 2-stage flight under my belt now (I wish I got a pin for it :D). I think this would be fun at a club level and might generate a little more connection between club members and might make club meetings more interesting.

I suppose NAR or TRA could get involved and maybe offer a set of 15-20 challenges that clubs could pick from (we could get pins and stickers in bulk then and it would be cheaper). Just my :2:

-brant
 
Different people get into (and more importantly, stay into) this hobby for different reasons. Some take a very linear approach and step through the levels in short order without looking back. They've probably done that with many different hobbies or other aspects of their lives approaching each thing as something to be conquered and then move onto another target. There may be no way to keep them interested in one thing for the long term. Once they've achieved Level 3, they've finished.

Others will move up the certification levels but still enjoy lower powered flights and will try variations on rocket and motor combinations they've successfully flown just to see what happens. There's always some variable that can or will be changed (weather conditions spring to mind).

At the other end of the spectrum, there are those who buy a starter kit, fly it once and are never heard from again.

We can't retain everyone who tries this. Each person has to find their own reason to stay with the hobby. If you want to go beyond the level 3 flights, you can take it on as an individual or group of like-minded people; you'd likely need the resources of multiple people to accomplish many of these tasks, anyway. If you are looking for a different challenge within the hobby, try the NARTREK Skills Program.

Thanks for the info. Looks like the NARTREK program is for 18 and under but I suppose one could just do the requirements anyway. : )
 
So, I've been here for three years now and the breadth of opportunities in this hobby still amazes me. As I peruse the forum I frequently find new ways of doing things, creative ideas for scratch builds, new commercial kits, electronics, and so on.... I'm a scientist at heart and for me, I see everything in here as something I have to try at least once and I have to understand how things work (a mindset that probably caused me some issues in my youth....and now). I've even made for myself an unofficial "road map" of what I'll try next. I see myself having fun for at least the next 10 years

Even given my self-fueled interest in this hobby I really like the idea of some sort of "challenge" or "pin" program, but it would probably need to be unofficial or maybe club based. For example: I could see a club championing the idea of their members trying clusters one year, maybe the next year setting an altitude record with a certain motor. Everyone who participates gets a pin or a patch or a sticker. IDK - just an idea - some clubs probably already do this. I really liked that last fall Wildman declared this year would be the year of the 2-stage. Challenge accepted - I have four 2-stage flight under my belt now (I wish I got a pin for it :D). I think this would be fun at a club level and might generate a little more connection between club members and might make club meetings more interesting.

I suppose NAR or TRA could get involved and maybe offer a set of 15-20 challenges that clubs could pick from (we could get pins and stickers in bulk then and it would be cheaper). Just my :2:

-brant

Those are some great idea. Doing it at the club level would be a good idea as well given that doing it nationally will be much more difficult. Maybe you and I are more of the "challenge"/"goal" type of people. I like to be challenged and I also like to have goals. I set my own of course but I think it is more fun when the club/organization has goals for you to try and achieve as well.

And certainly any type of "pin" program would be voluntary.
 
Get rid of all levels like the old days. Your certified or your not thats it.
 
Thanks for the info. Looks like the NARTREK program is for 18 and under but I suppose one could just do the requirements anyway. : )

There are 2 NARTREK programs. NARTREK Cadet for those under 18 (gauged for 9-14 year old) and can be done by both NAR members and those that are not. Then there is the standard NARTREK program for NAR members of any age.

I've been thinking of doing this program with my 9 year old nephew who is too young for TARC at the moment. It could be fun and is goal oriented.


Jerome
 
My observation of a few of my local rocket buddies who have been in the game a looong time is that they are all involved in some aspect of original design. I'm not sure how you would adapt that to a level/ladder/pin program. Involvement in any kind of formal (TARC) or informal outreach program seems to be a common theme with some old timers/long timers as well.

Thanks to Jerome for pointing out that the NARTREK program is not limited to 18 or younger, unless you think that everything in the low power impulse range is kid stuff :) .
 
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