Classic Trident and Big Bertha models from Estes in 1960s-70s

Woody's Workshop said:

What a beautiful rocket, it must have made you feel like you lost a loved one to crash it, sorry for your loss. Who did the decals if I may ask?

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Thanks. I have my own vinyl cutter and do all my own stuff and some graphics for some of the R/C guys and local businesses.

Kirk G said:

I am certain if I hunt long enough, I can come up with a rude joke or a double entendre based upon your story.... but I think I should let well enough alone.

Are we likely to see you at next month's launch?

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Yes, I am planning on attending the launch next month. The 15th right? It's on my calendar.

JoeG said:

I have my own vinyl cutter and do all my own stuff and some graphics for some of the R/C guys and local businesses.

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My vinyl guy moved out of state and he was very generous cutting freebies for me with having gotten a ton of vinyl from our old job for free. Now he's not very available, so I've been looking at ONE OF THESE. The smaller desktop model for $199. He said, for the light duty usage I'd be doing, it should do just fine.

K'Tesh said:

My Trident II has BT-20's, not BT-5's

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K'Tesh: The original Trident (1970's) used 3 BT-5s while the much later (1990) Trident-II used a pair of BT-20's to offset the missing of the third ejection gas tube.

I made a 3x downscale of the original Trident from my original 70's plans, Unfortunately my first Trident b&w photos were water damaged and the model was destroyed in a brake in.

I have to say the Trident-II is an OK model but no where near the cool factor of the Original Trident. To be honest really Not that much harder to build or clone either.

As far as the Big Bertha goes It's always been the same Length using a full 18" long BT-60 body tube all the way back to its original release. There was a "Super Big Bertha" based on BT-80 tubing that flew on a single D12 motor released sometime in early 1990 Which was later renamed and re-released as the Broadsword. We also have the currently available Baby Bertha that's been around for a number of years. still based on the same BT-60 body tube but only 9" long which may be what your friend was thinking of.

Gary Byrum said:

My vinyl guy moved out of state and he was very generous cutting freebies for me with having gotten a ton of vinyl from our old job for free. Now he's not very available, so I've been looking at ONE OF THESE. The smaller desktop model for $199. He said, for the light duty usage I'd be doing, it should do just fine.

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Gary,

I would agree that those should be fine for personal use. I notice it uses Roland blades which is good. Always use a sharp blade. I go through a lot of these but I'm cutting some pretty small stuff sometimes. Try to stay with the higher quality vinyl if you can afford it. I used some of the GreenStar and felt it was less than I wanted. I stick with the medium to high grades of Oracal and find it cuts and looks better. Try to find out what software you have to use for the machine. Sometimes it can cost more than the machine and I haven't found any freeware yet for that.

JoeG said:

Gary,

I would agree that those should be fine for personal use. I notice it uses Roland blades which is good. Always use a sharp blade. I go through a lot of these but I'm cutting some pretty small stuff sometimes. Try to stay with the higher quality vinyl if you can afford it. I used some of the GreenStar and felt it was less than I wanted. I stick with the medium to high grades of Oracal and find it cuts and looks better. Try to find out what software you have to use for the machine. Sometimes it can cost more than the machine and I haven't found any freeware yet for that.

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Forgive my ignorance, but what is the object of cutting vinyl? To create fins? Centering Rings?

Please enlighten me....

Also, I am attempting to install a few vinyl replacement windows, but need a couple of three foot lengths of 1 1/2-2 inch widths of white vinyl spacers. Is this the type of thing that you can cut for me? Or is it completely different?

Kirk G said:

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the object of cutting vinyl? To create fins? Centering Rings?

Please enlighten me....

Also, I am attempting to install a few vinyl replacement windows, but need a couple of three foot lengths of 1 1/2-2 inch widths of white vinyl spacers. Is this the type of thing that you can cut for me? Or is it completely different?

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People that make signs and wrap autos & trucks and what not, use adhesive vinyl. The text on the signs is cut with a plotter, looks a lot like an industrial printer. Stickershock does this for a great many rocketeers. Some people frown about the use of vinyl wraps and text on rockets, but to each his own. I use vinyl lettering to put names, stripes & aesthetic enhancements where I need them on my rockets. Perhaps you've seen those little stickers on the backs of peoples rear car windows with the family holding hands? Those stickers are made of vinyl. Just like this one.

View attachment 188281

Joe: I have Corel Draw which is compatible with these machines.

Gary Byrum said:

People that make signs and wrap autos & trucks and what not, use adhesive vinyl. The text on the signs is cut with a plotter, looks a lot like an industrial printer. Stickershock does this for a great many rocketeers. Some people frown about the use of vinyl wraps and text on rockets, but to each his own. I use vinyl lettering to put names, stripes & aesthetic enhancements where I need them on my rockets. Perhaps you've seen those little stickers on the backs of peoples rear car windows with the family holding hands? Those stickers are made of vinyl. Just like this one.

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Joe: I have Corel Draw which is compatible with these machines.

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Understood. I use Corel as well for design work. That's what my Trident decals were created in but there is also software that needs to be purchased to run the cutter. The vector/drawing program is not enough. My particular program is Sign Cut Pro. The machine will not work properly without a current license. For my particular package the life time license is $400. You can purchase it yearly for about $100 I think. Just a heads up on some hidden costs.

Kirk G said:

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the object of cutting vinyl? To create fins? Centering Rings?

Please enlighten me....

Also, I am attempting to install a few vinyl replacement windows, but need a couple of three foot lengths of 1 1/2-2 inch widths of white vinyl spacers. Is this the type of thing that you can cut for me? Or is it completely different?

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As Gary has said vinyl decals and other decorations on rockets. I do all sorts of graphics for rockets, R/C airplanes, signs, etc. as do a few others on this site. I have done my own graphics on the following upscales. I have a 3 times upscale Orbital Transport but don't seem to be able to find any photos.

https://s148.photobucket.com/user/joeG_album/slideshow/upscales

Thank you for explaining. I had an entirely different concept in my head.
This makes sense now.

Kirk G said:

Thank you for explaining. I had an entirely different concept in my head.
This makes sense now.

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And please forgive me/us, for hijacking your thread.
We now return you to your Trident/Big Bertha conversation already in progress.

Woody's Workshop said:

The SBB didn't far well, way underpowered with a D. I've had 2, have one in the box now.
Later went changed it to the Broadsword. I had one in a box, but have not found it yet.
But all boxes are not unpacked yet. Hope I didn't leave it behind tucked in some corner somewheres!

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I changed my Super Big Bertha to use three C6's. Didn't seem to make much difference on the delay. The five was just slightly before and the seven slightly after apogee. Either way the rocket was barely moving. Made a really nice demo rocket.

I'd like to build one with 29 or 38mm.
I'll have to run a RockSim on that and see what it comes up with.

which size a super or a standard size bertha? I am reasonably sure that people have built standard size berthas in both 29 and 38mm flavours . and to further muddy the waters Estes has had a mini bertha (in 13mm form), so that makes the lineage, Ranger, big Bertha, Baby B, Mini B, and Super B (I think).
Rex

Rex R said:

which size a super or a standard size bertha? I am reasonably sure that people have built standard size berthas in both 29 and 38mm flavours . and to further muddy the waters Estes has had a mini bertha (in 13mm form), so that makes the lineage, Ranger, big Bertha, Baby B, Mini B, and Super B (I think).
Rex

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Your Right Rex. Mini Brute Bertha was with BT-20, Old standard BB is BT-60, as is Baby Bertha. Super BB is BT-80, as was the Broadsword. Ranger was a 3 engine BB in BT-60 only a bit taller. I actually have one on the bench to be finished in BT-80, but short like the Baby B. Thinking of calling it Bubba Bertha. Have Sandman make me up a decal from the Baby Bertha, enlarge and change the 1st word. Maybe put a comic fat belly man decal on the other side, like me...

Woody's Workshop said:

Ranger was a 3 engine BB in BT-60 only a bit taller.

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Not to be too picky, but it's the other way around. Big Bertha is a single-engine, no payload section Ranger. Both are based on an 18 inch BT-60 and used the same nose cone and similar if not the same fins.

The Ranger first appeared in the 1963 catalog (it's K-6). The Big Bertha first appeared in the 1966 catalog (K-23). Both are listed at 24 inches in length in their respective initial appearances.

As a plan, Big Bertha first appeared in Volume 3 Number 2 of Model Rocket News - the April/May 1963 issue.

BEC said:

Not to be too picky, but it's the other way around. Big Bertha is a single-engine, no payload section Ranger. Both are based on an 18 inch BT-60 and used the same nose cone and similar if not the same fins.

The Ranger first appeared in the 1963 catalog (it's K-6). The Big Bertha first appeared in the 1966 catalog (K-23). Both are listed at 24 inches in length in their respective initial appearances.

As a plan, Big Bertha first appeared in Volume 3 Number 2 of Model Rocket News - the April/May 1963 issue.

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I stand correct.

Rex R said:

which size a super or a standard size bertha? I am reasonably sure that people have built standard size berthas in both 29 and 38mm flavours . and to further muddy the waters Estes has had a mini bertha (in 13mm form), so that makes the lineage, Ranger, big Bertha, Baby B, Mini B, and Super B (I think).
Rex

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The Mini Bertha predates the Baby Bertha by quite a few years. I don't have the info in front of me, but I think the Baby Bertha was introduced in the 90s, while the Mini was one of the original Mini Brutes from early seventies.

I may be incorrect, but when I was looking through all the old catelogs on the Estes site,
I think the Mini Bertha Mini Brute was the first of the Mini Brutes.

The timeline:

Ranger was issued as a kit in 1963. It was a 3-engine cluster model with 11" long body and a 7" long payload section.

Vern Estes took the Ranger design, made it with a single 18" long tube, and made it a single engine model (He still flies that particular model), and published the plan in MRN in 1963.

Big Bertha released as a kit in 1965 (Why the delay???).

Mini Bertha (a BT-20 'scale-down') released as one of the first Mini Brutes at NARAM 13 in 1971.

Super Big Bertha released in 1989 for D motors,
Broadsword was released in 1994 for the Cobra E15 motors
Super Big Bertha re-released in 2000 for E9 motors.

Ken Montanye designed the Baby Bertha and it was released in 2002.