Classic Trident and Big Bertha models from Estes in 1960s-70s

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Kirk G

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I went to my 40th high school reunion, and made a point of connecting with an old friend who first demonstrated Estes rockets CATO to us on the school playground. I've related the tale of the failure before, so I won't do that here. He does not remember the incident, except that yes, he and his father and brother WOULD have "put on a show" for us.

He DOES recall his two favorite models, and tells me he had several over the years. But his absolute favorite was the Trident and second most favorite was the Big Bertha. I remarked that they still made the Big Bertha and he corrected me saying that it was a scaled down version that was being marketed these days. He indicates that they were somewhat larger, on the order of several feet tall, back in the day.

And, he sketched on a napkin the basic design of the "Trident", which says had two body tubes, connected by a trio of soda straw structures that conveyed the escaping gases from the ejection charge up to the top tube to blow off the nosecone. I recall someone, possibly him, drawing this out for me once and explaining it, but I never saw it fly. He says he flew it dozens of times, until once at a playground, some kid beat him to the landed rocket and crushed it while picking it up. (Sad memory.)

He also indicates that there is a PDF file for the "Trident" available on the web for those who wanted to recreate it.
Does anyone know if this is true? Or how long ago the "Trident" went out of production? Does anyoe HAVE the kit? or the model?
 
Gerry Fortin has invested alot of time in his vintage rocketry database. Now everthing on the Web gets moldy over time but I think you'll find alot of good info here:

https://www.seateddimevarieties.com/BAR/kitpages/k30_1968.htm classic 3 tube Trident

https://www.rocketreviews.com/estes-trident-ii-david-fergus.html the 2 tube Trident (oxymoron ?) came in 1990

https://www.seateddimevarieties.com/BAR/kitpages/k23_nohangtag.htm IDK, he's got the original BB spec'ed at 24 inches long, same as the current listing: https://www.estesrockets.com/001948-big-berthar


Well worth a bookmark.
 
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Semroc kitted a repro of the Trident which was much easier to build because the slots in the various tubes were laser cut (as were the fins) and there was a neat assembly jig supplied. This built into a lovely and good flying model (and no wadding required). To get an idea of what that looked like, the Semroc manual is still on their site here: https://www.semroc.com/Documents/pdf/Trident.pdf

One version of the kit plan/instructions is on the JimZ site: https://www.spacemodeling.org/JimZ/estes/k-33.pdf (I see mattvd already gave you this link)

It really can be cloned - all the nose cones needed (all 9 of them) are available from BMS, and the rest of it is really standard parts. Semroc still has their version of the decals as well as a parts subassembly which may include all the RA-2050s for the "fins" on the engine mount and a few other useful bits. The hard part is slotting the tubes and getting everything all lined up. I built one this way and had the bottom of it blown out by an over enthusiastic ejection charge. My Trident from the Semroc kit hasn't suffered that fate as the tooling and laser cutting allowed the gas passages to be almost twice as wide without leaks.

The Big Bertha, of course, just seemed bigger when we were smaller..... :)
 
I built the SEMROC re-release of the Trident, but SEMROC is winding down now and haven't had it in stock. One appears on ebay from time to time though. You can definitely clone the Trident or the Trident-II (have one in primer right now), it just takes some work sourcing the parts. There are 5 different nose cone shapes, and 9 nose cones in all...this again was easier with SEMROC at full speed.

The Trident flies beautifully on C6-3s, and is my favorite LPR that we have. Given it's value to me it only flies on perfect days, or at the DARS Fall Classic.

trident.jpg
 
Cl(VII)-- do you ave any close-up photos of the rocket complelted, or in process, to share?

Thank all, for your contributions.

Is it true that the 1960s Big Berth was physically LARGER than the version that Estes put out in the 2007-2014 time frame?

I had no idea that it was SemRoc who had the Trident... or reissued it semi-recently. Was it an Estes kit originally? (See, I'm not familar with the relationship of the various Rocket companies.)


Secondary question: Is it possible to expand or scale up the Deltie (from Edmonds Scientific) to a larger, more sturdy glider? But what size engine would you need to lift the larger weight? (I've never attempted anything like this, but might be getting the itch to scratch build, or attempt to scale up something... might...I understand this is how the addiction starts...)
 
Secondary question: Is it possible to expand or scale up the Deltie (from Edmonds Scientific) to a larger, more sturdy glider? But what size engine would you need to lift the larger weight? (I've never attempted anything like this, but might be getting the itch to scratch build, or attempt to scale up something... might...I understand this is how the addiction starts...)

I believe it is called the Deltie Thunder, but that is also a rare bird to find. https://edmondsaerospace.com/Edmonds.html#Deltie

Scaling up is addictive... I have a 2.6" Satellite Interceptor, a 2.6" Cherokee-D (-I), and a 4" Arapahoe-E (-J) in process, and the parts for an upscale Trident. I'm sick I tell you, sick.
 
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OK, tried to follow a few of the links, and got the idea of the Trident...and now I understand WHY there were NINE nosecones involved. I would imagine that drove the price up some....Anybody got an idea of how much it retailed for, in either or any version? And does anyone know if there are any of the kits floating around for sale out there? I'm thinking of sending a link to my friend, and then letting HIM decide how much it's worth to him to recapture his youth.

For me, I'm just kinda curious if there are any Deltie Thunder kits out there, or if I would be better off scratch building one or trying to scale up from the plans/instructions I have left over from my Deltie kit of this last summer.
 
The Big Bertha has always been based on a full length (18 inches) BT-60. The nose cone shape in the current kits is a little bit shorter than the very original one, but the difference is not great. Big Bertha is the model rocket kit that's been in the longest continuous production of any. It first appeared in 1966 (though was a Model Rocket News plan before it was kitted - April/May 1963, volume 3, number 2) and is still in production today - mainly with a change to a plastic nose cone and adding a motor hook. There have been some intermediate variations with longer motor/stuffer tubes but the current one is closer to the original in this regard.

The K-31 Astron Trident was $4.00 in the 1968 catalog (where it first appeared) and $4.50 in the 1974 catalog (which appears to be the last appearance, though I'd defer to the data on Gary Fortin's web site on this point). Semroc's resurrection was $44 before it went OOP shortly after Semroc announced their intent to close down/sell early this year. Yes, all those nose cones surely drove up the price, what with what balsa costs these days..... My unbuilt Semroc Trident is not for sale (nor is the built one).
 
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Well, at least we know now that there is at least ONE unbuilt Trident in existance.... I think I'll hold off on telling Mike about it 'til later... ;)
 
Maybe the BB is actually a Super BB? Plans online for that one


Launching rockets (or missiles in my case) is so easy a chimp could do it. Read a step, do a step, eat a banana.

Sent from my iPad Air using Rocketry Forum.
 
To answer some of the questions - the Big Bertha today as the same size as the original was. The main difference between the two is that the current version uses a blow-molded nose cone, while the original was, I believe, balsa. The Big Bertha was a single engine version of the Ranger with one solid 18" body tube replacing the body the and payload compartment (which totaled 18" together). At one time, Estes also made an injection molded version of the nose cone. Estes did make an upscaled version called the Super Big Bertha that used BT-80 tubing and the same nose cone currently used for the BT-80 version of the Mosquito (also used in the Fat Boy). There was also, at one time, a Mini Bertha that flew on 13mm motors and was part of the Mini-Brutes line - I believe this model used the BT-20.

The original Trident used three 18" lengths of BT-5 for the three side tubes. Estes later came out with the Trident II (or Bident as many BARs call it) with two BT-5 side tubes instead of three. This is likely the model your friend is referring to. The original Trident was one of the K kits from pre and early Damon years. I still have my Trident I built more than 40 years ago while in high school.

If your friend still doesn't believe you, you can reference the Estes catalog library at the Estes web site - the catalogs have always given the dimensions of all their rockers, and the archive will also show what year the models were introduced by Estes.
 
The original Trident used three 18" lengths of BT-5 for the three side tubes. Estes later came out with the Trident II (or Bident as many BARs call it) with two BT-5 side tubes instead of three. This is likely the model your friend is referring to. The original Trident was one of the K kits from pre and early Damon years. I still have my Trident I built more than 40 years ago while in high school.

My Trident II has BT-20's, not BT-5's
 
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well Estes did release the 'Super Big Bertha' in 1989 but, it is only 36.5" long.
Rex
 
I flew my Trident at the AMOREA launch (Indy east side) on Sunday. Camera goof prevented me from getting a launch pic but here she is coming down under the chute.
This is the SEMROC retro-repro.

Trident under chute.jpg
 
well Estes did release the 'Super Big Bertha' in 1989 but, it is only 36.5" long.
Rex

The SBB didn't far well, way underpowered with a D. I've had 2, have one in the box now.
Later went changed it to the Broadsword. I had one in a box, but have not found it yet.
But all boxes are not unpacked yet. Hope I didn't leave it behind tucked in some corner somewheres!
 
Never built the Trident. But I admired it. Enough to create a spin-off using 3 BT-20's for the gas chambers. Has a unique "through the shroud" construction that was a bit time consuming, and variations on the upper and aft portions, but the end result was just what I had hoped for. A difficult build to say the least, but a really good flyer. The original plans are at Jim Z's site.
https://www.spacemodeling.org/JimZ/estes/k-33.pdf

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Never built the Trident. But I admired it. Enough to create a spin-off using 3 BT-20's for the gas chambers. Has a unique "through the shroud" construction that was a bit time consuming, and variations on the upper and aft portions, but the end result was just what I had hoped for. A difficult build to say the least, but a really good flyer. The original plans are at Jim Z's site.
https://www.spacemodeling.org/JimZ/estes/k-33.pdf

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Impressive! How did you figure out where to cut the shrouds to allow for passing the tubes through?
 
Impressive! How did you figure out where to cut the shrouds to allow for passing the tubes through?

It was a simple approach and not very hi-tech. I marked the top of the already mounted shroud off in thirds (120*) and made small custom cuts in the shroud until a BT 20 fit. I knew all this cutting would weaken the shroud, so I used 3-4 coats of sanding sealer to stiffen it up. I also knew it would be next to impossible to pre-cut these holes and get a good fit, so I glued it in place 1st.
 
The Big Bertha is the same size as it ever was. The fins may be incrementally smaller (maybe 1/16" smaller on one side or the other) and the nose cone is definitely 1/4 to 1/2" shorter (this happened when they went from balsa nose cones to plastic in 1972 or 73), but for the most part, it is the same size. He may have seen a Baby Bertha (introduced a decade or so ago) which is based on half the tube length, and slightly smaller (but same shape) fins, and confused it with the Big Bertha. Or he saw one of the black livery Big Berthas of the past 20 years or so and just thought it was smaller (the slimming power of black, as fashionistas would tell you).
 
Kirk,

Here is my Trident. A little larger than the original though. I like to think that i built the original when I was a kid but I was slightly older than that. Just married and building rockets again. My wife, whom is still with me, thought it a bit strange.

The photos are of an upscale I built, flew, and eventually crashed (suffered an early deployment under boost). Fun rocket though.

https://s148.photobucket.com/user/joeG_album/slideshow/upscale Trident
 
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