Starters vs. igniters

SARA (that's Scottish Aeronautics and Rocketry Association, not to be confused with any other SARA's out there ) recently conducted some tests with the new white-tip igniters, a.k.a. starters.

Several rockets have been flown using the starters. They have proven very reliable so far, the only mishaps being a CATO (which was the fault of a D12-5, not the starter) and a three-motor cluster which failed to start at all, probably due to a shorted lead - when the starters were removed and re-inserted, the rocket launched with all three motors lighting:
https://scottishrocketry.smugmug.com/2014/11th-of-October/i-QRwP74Z

A starter was placed on the ground and given 12V to see what it looks like in action:
https://scottishrocketry.smugmug.com/2014/11th-of-October/i-gXTD5Fh

And for comparison, a black-tip igniter received the same treatment:
https://scottishrocketry.smugmug.com/2014/11th-of-October/i-MrQKRwc

Both videos are slow motion. The starter eventually produces a flame, but if that had been in a rocket, the rocket would have gone before then - there is no more significant delay launching a rocket with a white-tip starter than with a black-tip igniter.

adrian said:

SARA (that's Scottish Aeronautics and Rocketry Association, not to be confused with any other SARA's out there ) recently conducted some tests with the new white-tip igniters, a.k.a. starters.

Several rockets have been flown using the starters. They have proven very reliable so far, the only mishaps being a CATO (which was the fault of a D12-5, not the starter) and a three-motor cluster which failed to start at all, probably due to a shorted lead - when the starters were removed and re-inserted, the rocket launched with all three motors lighting:
https://scottishrocketry.smugmug.com/2014/11th-of-October/i-QRwP74Z

A starter was placed on the ground and given 12V to see what it looks like in action:
https://scottishrocketry.smugmug.com/2014/11th-of-October/i-gXTD5Fh

And for comparison, a black-tip igniter received the same treatment:
https://scottishrocketry.smugmug.com/2014/11th-of-October/i-MrQKRwc

Both videos are slow motion. The starter eventually produces a flame, but if that had been in a rocket, the rocket would have gone before then - there is no more significant delay launching a rocket with a white-tip starter than with a black-tip igniter.

Click to expand...

Adrian:
Thanks for posting these videos they more or less confirm what I & others have observed over the last couple months. Seems the white tipped starters are just fine for single motor models. but for my money are WAY to slow for clustered motor models especially any with more then two motors.
I'll use the White tips for standard single motor flying but switch to pyrogen tipped for clusters to ensure all motor ignition.

Micromeister said:

Adrian:
Thanks for posting these videos they more or less confirm what I & others have observed over the last couple months. Seems the white tipped starters are just fine for single motor models. but for my money are WAY to slow for clustered motor models especially any with more then two motors.
I'll use the White tips for standard single motor flying but switch to pyrogen tipped for clusters to ensure all motor ignition.

Click to expand...

The guy who owns the cluster had read somewhere a recommendation to improve the starter's performance by coating it with nail varnish. He'd bought a bottle, but used untreated starters for the successful launch of the cluster. Being entirely happy with the performance of the starters in both single motors and clusters, he now has a bottle of nail varnish which he doesn't need.

If a starter fires a single motor in reasonable time, it ought to fire the same motor as part of a cluster in a similarly reasonable time. That is, if it's being fed enough current by the control box, and if its wires aren't shorted by being in close proximity with another starter or two, the latter being the probable reason why the cluster rocket shown above didn't go anywhere the first time. Our problem is going to be that in the UK we're allowed to use quickmatch without needing an explosives licence and frequently do so for clusters. A black-tip igniter will set off a bundle of quickmatch, but a white-tip starter with its reduced flame might not. The nail varnish might be needed after all. :lol:

That Delta Gamma and Thunderbird are real bonnie!

The wire on the STARTERs ignites the motor quick on a cluster and then the "shoe goop" coating kicks in - I know using the term "shoe goop" may be offensive to the purists but that is what I call it. So if you cluster with them you have to be perfect on getting that wire to firmly touch the BP at ignition. The more motors, using heavy clip whips, bad techniques with big finger insertion, twisting in the wind, LCO delays on launching all the smaller rocket before your silly cluster, any not perfect and clean connection, not having a fresh, hot battery, all can lead to disaster. The sparky hot black pyro tips are much more forgiving, but are going the way of the Dodo, as are the multi-motor cluster hacks. They will have to learn to dip their own in the back alley or submit to high end, Prima donna launching techniques and demands associated with using the mighty STARTERS on big clusters.

That would have been so cool if Scotland could have broken away from the oppressive regulation of London and been able to institute some independent "real man" rules on rocket ignition. Put on the kilt, get some blue face paint, pour yourself one of those delicious dark Scottish Ales and go out for some real man cluster rocketry fun. But No, we are still stuck with upper class English and American dim whits making silly rules to keep us safe from little pryo tipped igniters.

I am satisfied that the difference between starters and igniters are near negligible. Having seen clusters fail with igniters before, I am not going to worry about starters.

Could somebody please provide an accurate definition or difference between a "starter" and an "ignitor"???!!

Kirk G said:

Could somebody please provide an accurate definition or difference between a "starter" and an "ignitor"???!!

Click to expand...

I believe the the technical definition is "Any of a family of devices used to initiate a woosh generator." :wink:
Functionally, no difference. Procedurally, igniters are regulated in the U.S. by BATF, starters are not.

<edit> Actually, Estes changed the formula for starters to remove regulated material.

You must use the proper Newspeak term of "STARTER". You must say 5-4-3-2-1-START. Any other utterance constitutes a thought crime and will be subject to Thought Police intervention. Oldthinkers igniters are dangerous, hazardous material much desired by terrorists both foreign and domestic. Do not be an agent of Goldstein. Say BELLYFEEL STARTER DOUBLEPLUSGOOD!

Gimme some Q2's for a cluster, and I'm good to go.

I agree. Q2G2s are sorely missed.

cwbullet said:

I agree. Q2G2s are sorely missed.

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yep - unless I find some hiding in the bottom of my range box when I do some cleaning/reorganizing, I used up my last one at the last LUNAR launch. I donated it to the cause of getting a kid's stubborn rocket up in the air. After 2 shorted estes starters (the only issue I have with estes starters is how easy they are to short if one isn't careful installing them - which many first-time flyers aren't) the Q2G2 had no trouble at all. Totally worth my last one to get that bird in the air.

Still wish I had some, though. (Maybe it's time I learned how to dip my own.)

I replaced my last batch of Estes C6-5's, with a couple packs of Quest C6-5's, just so I could get the Q2's. Quest C6's fire fine with Estes starters, so why not? I know the burn rate differs between both company motors, but not to a degree that hinders my flight. So now, I have a 6 pack of Q2's for my next cluster flight. Made sense to me. Gotta boatload of Estes pyrogen ignites in the box already.

cwbullet said:

I agree. Q2G2s are sorely missed.

Click to expand...

Bill Stine talked about the beloved Q2G2, regulation, and new formulas at the NARAM 56 Manufactures forum this past July. His comments start at 40:05

[video=youtube;ccxMD-SqkKE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccxMD-SqkKE&list=PLzdBQL1k_NRixOVpY-clC77NNY-adoybJ&index=17[/video]

samb said:

Bill Stine talked about the beloved Q2G2, regulation, and new formulas at the NARAM 56 Manufactures forum this past July. His comments start at 40:05

[video=youtube;ccxMD-SqkKE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccxMD-SqkKE&list=PLzdBQL1k_NRixOVpY-clC77NNY-adoybJ&index=17[/video]

Click to expand...

Looks like no good court ruling goes unpunished, huh? :rant:

samb said:

Bill Stine talked about the beloved Q2G2, regulation, and new formulas at the NARAM 56 Manufactures forum this past July. His comments start at 40:05

[video=youtube;ccxMD-SqkKE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccxMD-SqkKE&list=PLzdBQL1k_NRixOVpY-clC77NNY-adoybJ&index=17[/video]

Click to expand...

So in the talk I heard "October" for the new starters to go on sale...

/me checks the calendar...

not that I'm impatient or anything. just wishing I could buy some more Q2s (even if they have a slightly slower response time - which is also true of the new estes starters)

Q2 is comletely different from Q2G2.

Q2 looks like an Estes igniter but with a glass bead instead of the tape strip and copper colored thick wires instead of silver colored wires. The Q2 comes with a pyrogen tip and was supplied with all the German Quest motors. They also sell one that has no pyrogen for use with the MicroMaxx II-1 motors.

Q2G2 is two insulated lead wires twisted together near the tip with a pyrogen tip.

I use bare nicrome wire wth a tiny loop formed around a straightened paper clip. I've used the nichrome for clusters and with a car battery it works great. Q2G2 igniters are much easier, especially for larger clusters. I used the Q2G2 igniters a few weeks ago when I burned up my last Quest D5-0P with 7 Estes C6-7 motors around it in a BT-80 model. All ignited.

rbelknap said:

So in the talk I heard "October" for the new starters to go on sale...

/me checks the calendar...

...

Click to expand...

We'll see. Did I detect the slightest hesitation (perhaps regret) as soon as he uttered that date ? Anyway, thanks to Adrian and our Scottish compatriots in rocketry for applying a little scientific method to the proceedings.

great comparison post. My last blast off pack had the white tips and they didn't seem any different than the old black tips (or the really old red tips). Everything in the box of 24 lit the first time.

Was trying to pin down where you guys were launching at from the video and photos. I lived in Scotland for a few years and have been back a few times since. Beautiful country. My family is originally from the North, but during the clearances moved to the Borders, then to Ireland and America. Still have cousins in Stirling and Glasgow proper. I lived in Stirling and Irvine.

shreadvector said:

Q2 is comletely different from Q2G2.

Q2 looks like an Estes igniter but with a glass bead instead of the tape strip and copper colored thick wires instead of silver colored wires. The Q2 comes with a pyrogen tip and was supplied with all the German Quest motors. They also sell one that has no pyrogen for use with the MicroMaxx II-1 motors.

Q2G2 is two insulated lead wires twisted together near the tip with a pyrogen tip.

Click to expand...

You are correct. in my haste, I misspoke (mistyped?) I am hoping for a return of the Q2G2 (even if in the new slower reacting non-regulated form.) What I like most about them is really the insulated wires which makes them harder for kids (and, lets be honest - me) to short them. I also like that they are a bit longer (easier to hook up to leads, and to twist together for clusters.)

thanks for the explanation....I think....

Kirk G said:

thanks for the explanation....I think....

Click to expand...

Hmm... T H E Y . A R E . D I F F E R E N T . T E R M S . F O R . T H E . S A M E . T H I N G.

I assume, base on Bill Stine's comments at NARAM and Estes actions this past year, that the word "starter" is more acceptable to the regulators. I will also assume that Estes and Quest felt that a formula change was required based on the regulatory "advice" that they received. Now the professional pyrotechnicians in the crowd might define classes of these things based on different physical, electrical, or chemical properties and operating characteristics. Call 'em starters, igniters, e-matches, electric matches or throatwarbler mangroves; as a group they are all devices used to initiate combustion in a rocket motor.