Were'nt Green Back Then???

I've heard recently that plastic shopping bags are going to be illegal in some states. Why?
Are Plastic garbage bags so designed that they will deteriate faster than the thinner, shopping bags?
Way back when, we used the heavy brown paper bags for trash bags. I still do for dry trash.
Also use them to cover my bench when I finish my leather crafts to keep the bench cleaner.
I use the plastic shoppin bags to line my small trash cans in eash room in the apartment as I did in the house.
Now, lets look at what goes into those plastic shopping bags used as trash liners...And the Heavy Weight Garbage bags...
Plastic blister packaging from which most everything is sold in these days. Is that specially formulated to deteriate faster than those super thin shopping bags?
How about those plastic water bottles, cranberry juice bottles, milk jugs, etc., that goes into those super stretch garbage bags...
Is any of that going to deteriate any faster than the super thin shopping bags?
What the heck is our Government doing?
All this crap makes me want to buy a horse and a mule and head for Rockeys and forget about civilization.
This is America...Politically correct? I'm an American, this is my HOME!
If you move here, live the way Americans do or go home.
You speak english, learn it, or go home.
Kick me, Rantin again...Just makes me sick of all the crap that people that were born and lives here has to put up with for idiots that can't stand up for what America Is ALL About that we call our Governemt, Voted in Leaders.

The plastic bag ban thing bugs me on one level, but on another I do understand it.

As I understand it, it goes like this:

IF everyone reused the thin grocery bags for stuff like lining small trash cans, and didn't just waste them (throw them away), and if they recycled the ones they didn't repurpose (I do this all the time, it's easy to drop them off at the grocery store collection bin), then in that case the thin plastic bags are a net plus to the environment. Basically, normalized per cubic foot of bag carrying volume, plastic bags use less energy to produce/recycle than paper bags.

The problem is a very large percentage of the bags are not reused or recycled. They go into the trash, or are simply discarded and blow around. They make quite the eyesore. I see them stuck on fences, I see them on my rocketry field (prairie area), I see them stuck on sticks and twigs in the streams nearby, they are EVERYWHERE and they do take a long time to degrade under real world conditions. They choke animals and when they get into the sea or lakes they cause all manner of harm.

Since they are making a mess (outside our landfills) much faster than they degrade, and people aren't taking responsibility to recycle them, communities are fed up with the eyesore and environmental problems they cause and are starting to push back with per-bag charges or outright bans. I like the convenience of these plastic bags, but I do understand the concerns that are leading us to move away from them.

I agree, people leave the plastic bottles all over too... but the bags are an easy target because there are practical alternatives like reusable bags and paper bags.

Marc

Hmmmm...Marc
You opened my eyes in a whole new prespective.
What you described is not a problem in my area.
But I can see it in a highly populated area.
Thanks for your input.
This is the kind of thing that leads to answers to solve problems!

There are other problems with plastic bags.

First, they are made of plastic...derived from petroleum products. Second, they do not degrade in landfills...most traditional plastic bags degrade best in direct sunlight....not buried in the ground.

Now, having said that, there have been advancements made in trying to address both those issues. Paper bags of course have neither of these kinds of issues...(made of wood pulp, biodegradable in just about any kind of environmental condition), but have their own issues (environmental impact larger in creation of said bags verses plastic bags).

The best idea of course is to try to reuse bags where possible (usually having your own helps)...a larger impact at the front end, but after that practically zero issues until the bag eventually falls apart due to use.

FC

Many of the bans are brought about by citizens' initiatives and voted into law. It's not always the government trying to think of new and better ways to anger you.

I've got some great canvas totes I bought or got for public broadcast donations that I've been using for 25 years. More recently, some stores have had Earth Day promotions where they give you five of the modern bag (not quite as good as the old canvas ones) if you purchase specific items during the promotion. I always travel with a number of them in my car so I'll always have my own when I go to any store. I've even gotten comments from cashiers at Trader Joe's when they've spotted a design on one of their paper bags that hasn't been available for a couple of years.

We've been too easy going with our plastic waste for too long and now we have to get a lot smarter very quickly.

Interestingly, nothing biodegradable decomposes in a reasonable time in a landfill. Entombing biodegradable waste in landfills actually inhibits decomposition.

Here's an interesting, though dated, paper:


An excerpt from the sub-heading, Decomposition of Organics:
"The Garbage Project's excavations have unearthed such preserved perishables as heads of lettuce, Kaiser rolls, hot dogs, concobs with their kernals intact, guacamole, and literally tons of datable, readable newspapers."

I used to work for a company that was involved in one of the excavations, and we had a display of 'artifacts' from these excavations, including 50+ year old newspapers.

And I have to revert to...
The Plastic Garbage Bag.
Musch thicker, and espically used and accepted into landfills with those same faults.
So what you are saying...is...the plastic shopping bags described above on fences and such, in sunlight, will degrade faster than those garbage bags dedicated purposely to be put in landfills...1/2 filled with plastic blister packs and bottles.
And my point is...
why are they targeting the wrong product.
Make packaging and garbage bags out of a more chemical make up for faster degradable plastic (thinking of the old coke bottles) instead of targeting something that naturally has more than one use?
We must look at a long term solution, not a "see it, lets deal with it" attitude.

Too deep?
I know landfills give off methane, which can and is harvested to use as fuel alternative.
So I am assuming, the longer it takes to decopose, the more methane it generates?
This is and area I am not familure with, and know little about.
Only what I saw on the History Channel.

Long term solutions are great of course.

But that doesn't mean something can't be done about it now. There are alternatives to plastic bags available today as there were before plastic bags existed. So an outright ban isn't necessarily some sort of hardship. However, I tend to be more of a fan of 'encouraging' good behaviors instead of trying to force them. For instance, I like the idea of a tax on plastic grocery bags that the grocery stores enforce by charging for them. It encourages bringing your own verses outright removing the option. Several stores already do this sort of thing. Another option is retasking shipping boxes...Costco does this (they don't offer bags at all). Gets rid of overhead for them and doesn't cost anything.

FC

I think the biggist problem is in large cities.
Because I've lived in a small town my whole life, we are all use to making due with what we have.
Big Cities, too much money...thus people just don't care and waste is a way of life.
I may be too, too old school...But any city over 5000 people can't support it's self.
I grew up on farms, and nothing went to waste. Not even the bones from butchered cow.
They went to the dogs whom lived off the marrow. Made knife handles, or sold them to a jellitin maker.
(you all do know that Jello is made from bone, right?)
I'd rather have a wagon, 4 mules and 2 horses, and not have anyone withing 50 miles of me.
I'd be happier than a black bear in a bee box field! mmmm HONEY!

I lived in Germany. They recycle everything and laugh at our hypocrisy. We invented the concept of recycle but we do not do it well. In Germany, they recycle every thing. Heck, in my town, I have to drive 25 minutes to recycle plastic.

We need to do better.

We can be like Naples, Italy where I lived for three years. Garbage strikes constantly and the trash is burned in the street. I agree, Germany recycled everything.



And this picture is not even a great shot of it!

One solution is building garbage incinerators to turn the garbage into fuel. Cedar Rapids, Iowa, about an hour and a half from me, is considering this.

Plasma Power Confronts Realities With Garbage-Fueled Power Plant

By Rick Smith, Reporter

Photos


Story Created: Oct 16, 2012 at 1:59 PM CDT
Story Updated: Apr 23, 2014 at 12:03 PM CDT

Read more at https://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Pla...ower-Plant-174471621.html#V3d4BYltCyTjiab3.99

I've never been a fan of banning things like bags. I don't mind paying 5 cents per bag like Europe but make it my choice. I can foresee where some draconian government will make it a crime to possess plastic bags with huge fines if you use them... Farfetched? Maybe....but as I said I like choice. Once we begin to lose choice on something like this, we slowly erode choice in the bigger things.


Launching rockets (or missiles in my case) is so easy a chimp could do it. Read a step, do a step, eat a banana.

Sent from my iPad Air using Rocketry Forum.

Woody's Workshop said:

I've heard recently that plastic shopping bags are going to be illegal in some states. Why?
Are Plastic garbage bags so designed that they will deteriate faster than the thinner, shopping bags?
Way back when, we used the heavy brown paper bags for trash bags. I still do for dry trash.
Also use them to cover my bench when I finish my leather crafts to keep the bench cleaner.
I use the plastic shoppin bags to line my small trash cans in eash room in the apartment as I did in the house.
Now, lets look at what goes into those plastic shopping bags used as trash liners...And the Heavy Weight Garbage bags...
Plastic blister packaging from which most everything is sold in these days. Is that specially formulated to deteriate faster than those super thin shopping bags?
How about those plastic water bottles, cranberry juice bottles, milk jugs, etc., that goes into those super stretch garbage bags...

Click to expand...

Marc_G said:

IF everyone reused the thin grocery bags for stuff like lining small trash cans, and didn't just waste them (throw them away), and if they recycled the ones they didn't repurpose (I do this all the time, it's easy to drop them off at the grocery store collection bin), then in that case the thin plastic bags are a net plus to the environment. Basically, normalized per cubic foot of bag carrying volume, plastic bags use less energy to produce/recycle than paper bags.

The problem is a very large percentage of the bags are not reused or recycled. They go into the trash, or are simply discarded and blow around. They make quite the eyesore. I see them stuck on fences, I see them on my rocketry field (prairie area), I see them stuck on sticks and twigs in the streams nearby, they are EVERYWHERE and they do take a long time to degrade under real world conditions. They choke animals and when they get into the sea or lakes they cause all manner of harm.

Since they are making a mess (outside our landfills) much faster than they degrade, and people aren't taking responsibility to recycle them, communities are fed up with the eyesore and environmental problems they cause and are starting to push back with per-bag charges or outright bans. I like the convenience of these plastic bags, but I do understand the concerns that are leading us to move away from them.

I agree, people leave the plastic bottles all over too... but the bags are an easy target because there are practical alternatives like reusable bags and paper bags.

Marc

Click to expand...

Worsaer said:

Interestingly, nothing biodegradable decomposes in a reasonable time in a landfill. Entombing biodegradable waste in landfills actually inhibits decomposition.

Here's an interesting, though dated, paper:


An excerpt from the sub-heading, Decomposition of Organics:
"The Garbage Project's excavations have unearthed such preserved perishables as heads of lettuce, Kaiser rolls, hot dogs, concobs with their kernals intact, guacamole, and literally tons of datable, readable newspapers."

I used to work for a company that was involved in one of the excavations, and we had a display of 'artifacts' from these excavations, including 50+ year old newspapers.

Click to expand...

There is a multitude of issues

As pointed out, most of the items in a land fill do not actually biodegrade. And most plastics that claim to be biodegradable require UV light to work. So once they are buried they get no UV and will not degrade.

One point not brought up yet is most stores went to the plastic bags because they are cheaper to buy than the paper bags. And I hate the waste associated with the plastic bags. With the paper bags (or reusable shopping bags) you'll get a dozen or 2 dozen items into a bag. Most of the time I'm lucky if the clerk gets half a dozen items is a plastic bag, and often only 2 or 3 (I've had them use a bag for 1 item). So now instead of 3 paper bags I come home with 10 plastic bags

But as pointed out, the thin plastic bags are not often properly disposed of and start blowing around. They are so thin and light the wind can easily blow them for miles, until they get snagged on a fence, branch, etc. And even when they will degrade with expose to the sun, that process can take more than 6 months. Meanwhile, it is there as an eyesore and threatens wildlife. Even if people properly took care of the bags they still get loose at the landfill areas between the dump and bury process.

In terms of heavier plastics, that depends on how the area handles them. In my area, they have collection and recycle almost all kinds of plastics. Water bottles have a deposit/refund system. Milk bottles, cranberry juice bottles, blister packs, and even plastic toys are collected for recycling so they should not go into the heavier garbage bags

But it all really has to do with the people. If everyone properly took care of their trash this would not be as big an issue (as I said - still a problem near landfills) and if every area recycled all the plastic then that would help. Best all around answer is to use the reusable items. The reusable bags, refillable bottles, etc.

One thing to note about bag ban laws --- they probably were NOT the idea of non-English-speaking immigrants who came to this country to destroy the American way of life. :eyeroll:

This country uses a ridiculous number of plastic bags --- it's something crazy, like a billion each day! The problem with the plastic bags is that they get losse and then become a pollution problem. The worst is when they get into the waterways and oceans and are consumed by wildlife. Even as they "break down" they don't really become something good for the environment --- they mostly just become smaller particles of plastic and even more likely to be an environmental problem. Google the Ocean Garbage Patch.

My county started a bag ban 2 years ago. The rule is that grocery stores cannot give you a free plastic bag at the check stand, but they can sell you a disposable paper bag for a minimum price of 10 cents or a reusable bag for whatever price. You are supposed to bring a reusable bag (or your own plastic or paper bag). For the first week, it was all anyone talked about in the checkout line, and you would think we had been put under a fascist tyranny the way people reacted. But in no time at all, people got used to it and started bringing their reusable bags. Now it's just second nature, and no one even mentions it anymore. It actually makes a trip to Costco much better, because they will cheerfully bag your stuff into your reusable bags for you, where they used to just grudgingly pile it all half-assed into miscellaneous unsuitable boxes.

I got most of my reusable bags from stores that gave them away for free during the first week of the ban, and they have lasted me the entire two years already, so that's 2-years of plastic bags saved so far. I did buy a couple of the big insulated bags from Trader Joes, and those are really great for bringing home frozen stuff, or when you need to stop at more than one stor, and you don't want the milk sitting in the hot car.

Where I live its already in effect. Kind of shows how short sighted the city leaders are, ten years ago they banned paper bags and made us use plastic even though we all knew about the long term effects. Now most stores have large reusable canvas bags for shopping and charge a bagging fee if you dont have your own bag,

Woody's Workshop said:

I think the biggist problem is in large cities.
Because I've lived in a small town my whole life, we are all use to making due with what we have.
Big Cities, too much money...thus people just don't care and waste is a way of life.
I may be too, too old school...But any city over 5000 people can't support it's self.
I grew up on farms, and nothing went to waste. Not even the bones from butchered cow.
They went to the dogs whom lived off the marrow. Made knife handles, or sold them to a jellitin maker.
(you all do know that Jello is made from bone, right?)
I'd rather have a wagon, 4 mules and 2 horses, and not have anyone withing 50 miles of me.
I'd be happier than a black bear in a bee box field! mmmm HONEY!

Click to expand...

This is a bit short sighted. I've seen plenty of country dwellers in small towns be just as wasteful, have just as much litter and garbage in or around their yards.

And don't forget, without larger population centers, you don't get the tax base that allows you to pay decent rates for things like electricity or mail service. And of course, you are benefiting directly from population centers whenever you use the internet. Pretty sure those servers aren't in the middle of nowhere (well, except maybe the NSA server farm out in Utah)...

We are getting smarter about this sort of thing...power plants powered by methane from cow poop, companies making chip bags that are truly biodegradable in most environments, making recycling easier and more accessible...I could go on. But there will be teething problems and resistance as there always is when adapting new ways of thinking.

FC

one way of encouraging the re-use of bags is to offer a discount for using your own bags.
Rex

They just want to force you into spending more money on someone's invention that; sent the governor a small pile of money....


JD

They are a problem along the coasts, when they float in the water they appear similar to jellyfish from some marine animals point of view. Sea turtles are sometimes found with a bag trailing behind them that has half passed through their digestive track and become stuck.

In a POLITICAL RANT:

Woody's Workshop said:

You speak english, learn it, or go home.

Click to expand...

Uh, when you bring up forcing people to speak a language, I wonder if you speak any of these?



Didn't think so, your point lost.

Or do you expect all Native Americans to lean to speak english or "GO HOME"? WHAT COUNTRY should THEY go to?

- George Gassaway

georgegassaway said:

In a POLITICAL RANT:


Uh, when you bring up forcing people to speak a language, I wonder if you speak any of these?

Didn't think so, your point lost.

Or do you expect all Native Americans to lean to speak english or "GO HOME"? WHAT COUNTRY should THEY go to?

- George Gassaway

Click to expand...

Excellent. Many don't seem to remember it's the World Wide Web either...

Not sure about the rest of you, but this post has been too political for my taste since it began. Especially given some of the (and I am sure this will be taken pejoratively) rants that have gone on. First and foremost, we are rocketry enthusiasts. Posts like this begin to pit us against one another, which I for one, prefer not to see.

Okay, now I'm done. Continue if you must. Last time I will look or reply to this post.


Launching rockets (or missiles in my case) is so easy a chimp could do it. Read a step, do a step, eat a banana.

Sent from my iPad Air using Rocketry Forum.

Isobutanol. biodegradeable plastics... replaces ethanol for fuel...direct drop in in any amount, not 10-15 %. Made in same refinery as alcohol, but returns original plant products back as [95%] feedstock.

GEVO.... working on saving us from ourselves....LOL [and making money of course]

Made in same factory from same plants [mostly corn] that alcohol is distilled. The remaining material 95% can be used as feed stock.

BUT can be used for a type of plastic bottles, jet fuel, marine fuel & degradable over time. Coke, Johnson & Johnson are among the sponsoring research.

It has just recently produced full scale quantities for the first time and is being used to boost racing fuels. Testing by military was complete success as they have been mandated to use green fuels.

I have been following this for 2 yrs.

https://www.gevo.com/our-markets/isobutanol/

racing fuel:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/gulf-racing-fuels-selling-high-130000205.html

USAFmissileer said:

Not sure about the rest of you, but this post has been too political for my taste since it began. Especially given some of the (and I am sure this will be taken pejoratively) rants that have gone on. First and foremost, we are rocketry enthusiasts. Posts like this begin to pit us against one another, which I for one, prefer not to see.

Okay, now I'm done. Continue if you must. Last time I will look or reply to this post.

Click to expand...

Well then you won't mind if I respond. In my opinion this thread has for the most part been fairly civil, with most folks either ignoring the blatant political rants or addressing them with calm, cool statements of opinion or facts.

This is The Watering Hole...specifically of discussions not necessarily related to rocketry. Which means there will be things brought up that you aren't going to be comfortable discussing...as long as it's within the board's guidelines. What one person's 'political' line is differs for every subject.

If you aren't comfortable with the subject, I'd recommend not reading or participating in the thread. If you feel someone is violating the board's guidelines, report the post to a moderator.

Quite frankly, just because someone shares the hobby of rocketry with people on this board, doesn't mean they actually need to like those people and vice versa.

FC

blackjack2564 said:

Isobutanol. biodegradeable plastics... replaces ethanol for fuel...direct drop in in any amount, not 10-15 %. Made in same refinery as alcohol, but returns original plant products back as [95%] feedstock.

GEVO.... working on saving us from ourselves....LOL [and making money of course]

Made in same factory from same plants [mostly corn] that alcohol is distilled. The remaining material 95% can be used as feed stock.

BUT can be used for a type of plastic bottles, jet fuel, marine fuel & degradable over time. Coke, Johnson & Johnson are among the sponsoring research.

It has just recently produced full scale quantities for the first time and is being used to boost racing fuels. Testing by military was complete success as they have been mandated to use green fuels.

I have been following this for 2 yrs.

https://www.gevo.com/our-markets/isobutanol/

racing fuel:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/gulf-racing-fuels-selling-high-130000205.html

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I hadn't heard about isobutanol before. I thought one of the entries in the Wiki article was interesting about using cyanobacteria to produce it ... needing only CO2, H2O, and sunlight. Damn, if we could make that work out on an industrial scale...

FC

Sorry, didn't mean to start a feud.
I've had a real hard last couple years and I should no better than bring it here
I violated the rules, then I deserve to be banned.
I'll keep things pertaining to rockets from now on.
Again, I Appologize.

FastCargo said:

Damn, if we could make that work out on an industrial scale...

FC

Click to expand...

They ARE... did you follow either link I posted?

Already shipping the stuff by tanker train car . Made in retro-fitted ethanol plants, can convert plant over for only several million, which is peanuts in industrial world.

Early problems in testing revolved around keeping the process laboratory level sanitized,, yeasts involved easily contaminated and output of Isobutanol would drop.

Finally they got it down few months ago and are running same scale batch sizes as ethanol. Millions of gallons made just in the one facility.

This year should be very interesting for this revolutionary product. Gevo is the first, BP....Total and several other Big Oil co. are trying to produce it. The money will be in licensing , since so many ethanol refineries exist. This stuff can be run side by side in same plants.


I bought 500 shares of Gevo.
It will either go bananas or bust.
But at 32cents a share, it's like a night at the Casino.... LOL

I reuse the plastic grocery bags as small kitchen trash can liners, auto litter bag, and when packing orders for Ebay. The largest ones are saved for special tasks. The rest are bagged up and donated to the Salvation Army store.

RocketT.Coyote said:

I reuse the plastic grocery bags as small kitchen trash can liners, auto litter bag, and when packing orders for Ebay. The largest ones are saved for special tasks. The rest are bagged up and donated to the Salvation Army store.

Click to expand...

We do too, Target bags are the best for cat box "trimmings".

blackjack2564 said:

They ARE... did you follow either link I posted?

Click to expand...

Widespread is maybe the better term I should have used...it's not there yet.

Plus, I was specifically talking about the cyanobacteria method that absorbs CO2 (which would have a very obvious benefit). GEVO appears to be using the yeast method...not the same thing.

But now I'm interested.

FC