High Power Rocketry in decline, on the rise, or in limbo?

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I didn't know that. I thought you had to re-cert if you let it lapse by more than a year in both orgs. I had no idea TRA was the only one that did that.

I'm not completely opposed to re-certifying but the time gap should be larger. 5 years is a good time. Things change over the years and people change. The club wants to make sure you still remember what you are doing is my assumption of why they make you re-cert. Perhaps TRA could let you skip L1 and the test for L2 and just do the L2 flight if you are an L3 person? IDK

The NAR adopted the new policy two or three years ago.
 
The NAR adopted the new policy two or three years ago.

NAR isn't very big around here so that is probably why I didn't know about it. I don't follow them all that closely honestly. Good info to know though.
 
So is the presumption that NAR did it to lure people back to the hobby or do they consider themselves as competing with TRA and so they did it for that reason?
 
I would like to answer to why I think there is a bump in NAR, at least from our clubs experience. And add one big difference to add to Bobs list, that is proving to be a big reason on why I have seen a shift.

NAR cert is life time you don't have to re-certify if you let you membership laps. TRA guys don't want to admit it, at least the ones I have talked to, but that is a big deal to people around here.

Not having to go through that again is worth more than they think. When times get tough and you have to feed your family first, then one day when you get to rejoin you don't have to start all over again. I'm sorry but that blows.

I support both right now but when the crap hits the fan and I have to take a break you can bet NAR will be the one I will pick back up.

TA
That excuse doesn't hold water.

If you let your HPR certification lapse, what happens? You can't fly HPR.

What do you have to do to get your certification back? Fly HPR.

Why would you want your HPR certification back? To Fly HPR.

All roads lead to flying HPR, whether you keep your HPR certification continuously or not. It just isn't that big a deal.

Which came first, the certification or the HPR flight? (Answer: neither, they're simultaneous).

Now, if there are economic reasons not to keep your certification current during a layoff, that's fine. You can still pay to re-start your membership, fly a rocket and get it back. Not a big deal. In the interim, all the other active members have paid their dues to keep legal insurance in place, keep the national organizations viable, etc.

I also think safety is a concern. An extreme example why certification should not be life-long: It is unsafe and unwise for a person who got L3 certification 6-8 years previously and never again flew an L3 rocket to come back to the hobby and build an extreme L3 rocket for their re-entry project. I might argue that a requirement for a flight to the flyers certification level every 3 years or so to maintain certification would be appropriate.

--Lance.
 
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That excuse doesn't hold water.

If you let your HPR certification lapse, what happens? You can't fly HPR.

What do you have to do to get your certification back? Fly HPR.

Why would you want your HPR certification back? To Fly HPR.

All roads lead to flying HPR, whether you keep your HPR certification continuously or not. It just isn't that big a deal.

Which came first, the certification or the HPR flight? (Answer: neither, they're simultaneous).

Now, if you there are economic reasons not to keep your certification current during a layoff, that's fine. You can still pay to re-start your membership, fly a rocket and get it back. Not a big deal. In the interim, all the other active members have paid their dues to keep legal insurance in place, keep the national organizations viable, etc.

I also think safety is a concern. An extreme example why certification should not be life-long: It is unsafe and unwise for a person who got L3 certification 6-8 years previously and never again flew an L3 rocket to come back to the hobby and build an extreme L3 rocket for their re-entry project. I might argue that a requirement for a flight to the flyers certification level every 3 years or so to maintain certification would be appropriate.

--Lance.

Also excellent points. I kind of elluded to the L3 portion as you did. That's a big rocket to allow someone to fly who hasn't flown in a very long time.
 
I can relate..I used to be TRA # 4622 and can't come back to this cash rich hobby..i have since acquired properties and other things that require monies out and a lot of extra work that I can't leave for casual launch weekends..HOSED TOTALLY!
I still follow the new ultra expensive Carbon Fiber fun!
there is an apparent wealth status to our Hobby as now flyers can afford L and M motors like they were "c" motors..spectacular but means the Hobby was stripped away to the Rich affluent members..

Nothing stopping you from launching smaller motors. I've never seen anyone turned away from launching A8-3's, even at large launches with 100 fliers and M's going off all day long. I've found those same guys to be friendly and helpful even to those flying smaller rockets.

One of the cool things about rocketry is each person is free to pick their own place and style in the hobby.
 
Nothing stopping you from launching smaller motors. I've never seen anyone turned away from launching A8-3's, even at large launches with 100 fliers and M's going off all day long. I've found those same guys to be friendly and helpful even to those flying smaller rockets.

One of the cool things about rocketry is each person is free to pick their own place and style in the hobby.

We have a lot of minis out at our site. They are just as fun. As others have pointed out, sometimes the smaller low flying ones are more entertaining as you can track them from liftoff to apogee.
 
So is the presumption that NAR did it to lure people back to the hobby or do they consider themselves as competing with TRA and so they did it for that reason?
This change was made in April 2012. From https://www.nar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/2012-April-BOT-Minutes.pdf
[A NAR member] requested that the NAR
Board reconsider its policy of not restoring previously-earned high power user certifications when a member rejoins
after a lapse of more than one year in membership. The Board discussed this issue at some length, and could not
decide what the real difference was between a person who earned a high-power certification and never subsequently
flew to that level of high power but maintained continuous membership for many years, and therefore retained that certification,
and a person who earned a certification then departed the NAR and returned that same number of years later, but lost the
certification due to the membership lapse.
 

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

I guess they have a point. Although the only thing I could see is that the person who keeps paying but doesn't fly at that level is probably someone who still sticks around the hobby and stays up with what is going on.

Perhaps the one gentleman who said, "Re-Certification" has a point. Prove every "5 years" or whatever that you can still do it? IDK. That might drive people away though. Perhaps L1 could be lifetime and L2 and L3 or maybe just L3 would require recert? That's a lot of money though for someone potentially.
 
That excuse doesn't hold water.

If you let your HPR certification lapse, what happens? You can't fly HPR.

What do you have to do to get your certification back? Fly HPR.

Why would you want your HPR certification back? To Fly HPR.

All roads lead to flying HPR, whether you keep your HPR certification continuously or not. It just isn't that big a deal.

Which came first, the certification or the HPR flight? (Answer: neither, they're simultaneous).

Now, if there are economic reasons not to keep your certification current during a layoff, that's fine. You can still pay to re-start your membership, fly a rocket and get it back. Not a big deal. In the interim, all the other active members have paid their dues to keep legal insurance in place, keep the national organizations viable, etc.

I also think safety is a concern. An extreme example why certification should not be life-long: It is unsafe and unwise for a person who got L3 certification 6-8 years previously and never again flew an L3 rocket to come back to the hobby and build an extreme L3 rocket for their re-entry project. I might argue that a requirement for a flight to the flyers certification level every 3 years or so to maintain certification would be appropriate.

--Lance.

Umm I believe it does, and it is a big deal to me and many others I talk to. Its a pain and unnecessary to re-cert every time life happens. Its just another way to keep funds coming, in a way it holds you hostage. We have a guy in our club that knows more about rockets than most ever will, and he had a 8 year break due to hard times and guess what organization he re-certified with? I will give you a hint, not TRA, and the reason WAS the life CERT.

I say it's fooey to the safety concern I haven't build an RC plane in years 6 to 8 (in your example) started a scratch building a plane a week ago and guess what I can still do it, and I can still fly, something I haven done in a long time too. Just because I take a break for a few years I doesn't mean all of the sudden forget how to launch a rocket.

Occam's razorr, its just about the money, and that's fine if the only way you can remain viable is to force continual payment to keep a certification then so be it. Just don't be surprised if I disagree and take my money elsewhere.

I support both, I have dual membership for many reasons. And will only drop them if I cant afford it, not because I plan to take advantage of the system. I believe in doing my part, but I think the organizations can work with us on this one because honestly it's ridiculous. I'm tired of the same old what if grampa blows us all up with his lvl 3 rocket because he forgot what he was doing.

NAR and TRA are both fine organizations I support both because I believe in 98.99% of what they do, lets not jump to conclusions that I pick one over another, this is just one point of one augment that I have and that's all.


TA
 
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Umm I believe it does, and it is a big deal to me and many others I talk to. Its a pain and unnecessary to re-cert every time life happens. Its just another way to keep funds coming, in a way it holds you hostage. We have a guy in our club that knows more about rockets than most ever will, and he had a 8 year break due to hard times and guess what organization he re-certified with? I will give you a hint, not TRA, and the reason WAS the life CERT.

I say it's fooey to the safety concern I haven't build an RC plane in years 6 to 8 (in your example) started a scratch building a plane a week ago and guess what I can still do it, and I can still fly, something I haven done in a long time too. Just because I take a break for a few years I doesn't mean all of the sudden forget how to launch a rocket.

Occam's razorr, its just about the money, and that's fine if the only way you can remain viable is to force continual payment to keep a certification then so be it. Just don't be surprised if I disagree and take my money elsewhere.

I support both, I have dual membership for many reasons. And will only drop them if I cant afford it, not because I plan to take advantage of the system. I believe in doing my part, but I think the organizations can work with us on this one because honestly it's ridiculous. I'm tired of the same old what if grampa blows us all up with his lvl 3 rocket because he forgot what he was doing.

NAR and TRA are both fine organizations I support both because I believe in 98.99% of what they do, lets not jump to conclusions that I pick one over another, this is just one point of one augment that I have and that's all.


TA

Thanks for your input. I'm not an L3 and I haven't been in the hobby a long time so I can't speak for many of the seasoned veterans on how they feel about it. I think both sides have some good arguments and good info.

We are all here to have fun and enjoy the hobby. These issues are bound to come up now and again.
 
I am a member of both and my wife is secretary for both local clubs. We like being active in both local and national clubs.
 
I think people are making too much of the cert process. Let's say you lapse TRA. You come back and want to fly an L. Pop off an H, then take the test, and fly the L. Not really a giant deal. Nor costly. I'm not L3, so I can't speak to the difficulty of the process, but if you had an M to fly, toss up an. H, a. J, and then cert on your old rocket. Not a whole lot of cost involved.
 
I can see the reasoning behind life certs. I have no problem with that at all. I see no difference between a guy who certs L3 and never flew one again for 5 years, keeps up his membership and a guy that might have been in the hobby for 20 years, has flown lots of L3 flights and had hobby burn-out for 5 years and did not retain his membership. Getting past the RSO is the test.
 
A guy at ROC who was out for a long time did his L1-L3 over the course of the weekend. All old rockets he's flown before, all worked flawlessly. Forcing re-cert due to a lapse is unnecessary IMO. There are people who are certified that I think are unsafe, but most that come back into the hobby I think aren't going to put thousands of dollars into the sky if they haven't double checked everything.
 
toss up an. H, a. J, and then cert on your old rocket. Not a whole lot of cost involved.

Not so sure about that, dont think you can use a old rocket. I think you need to go a TAP then go through the whole process and build another level III rocket.
 
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Umm I believe it does, and it is a big deal to me and many others I talk to. Its a pain and unnecessary to re-cert every time life happens. Its just another way to keep funds coming, in a way it holds you hostage. We have a guy in our club that knows more about rockets than most ever will, and he had a 8 year break due to hard times and guess what organization he re-certified with? I will give you a hint, not TRA, and the reason WAS the life CERT.

I say it's fooey to the safety concern I haven't build an RC plane in years 6 to 8 (in your example) started a scratch building a plane a week ago and guess what I can still do it, and I can still fly, something I haven done in a long time too. Just because I take a break for a few years I doesn't mean all of the sudden forget how to launch a rocket.

Occam's razorr, its just about the money, and that's fine if the only way you can remain viable is to force continual payment to keep a certification then so be it. Just don't be surprised if I disagree and take my money elsewhere.

I support both, I have dual membership for many reasons. And will only drop them if I cant afford it, not because I plan to take advantage of the system. I believe in doing my part, but I think the organizations can work with us on this one because honestly it's ridiculous. I'm tired of the same old what if grampa blows us all up with his lvl 3 rocket because he forgot what he was doing.

NAR and TRA are both fine organizations I support both because I believe in 98.99% of what they do, lets not jump to conclusions that I pick one over another, this is just one point of one augment that I have and that's all.


TA

Just because you take a break for a few years DOES mean that you will have forgotten some of the details. The devil is in the details: how exactly you prep the electronics, how to fold the parachutes, remembering to put in shear pins, etc.

Now I don't think that you necessarily need to create a new rocket for your certifications, but I do think that you ought to have supervision equivalent to certifying the first time. And that's not going to add any cost, just inconvenience, and I think that's justified for the safety.
 
Just because you take a break for a few years DOES mean that you will have forgotten some of the details. The devil is in the details: how exactly you prep the electronics, how to fold the parachutes, remembering to put in shear pins, etc.

Now I don't think that you necessarily need to create a new rocket for your certifications, but I do think that you ought to have supervision equivalent to certifying the first time. And that's not going to add any cost, just inconvenience, and I think that's justified for the safety.


I'm sure there are plenty of TAP's who would let a person use a old rocket but that's not the way it reads to me. I suppose a person could submit there level three document of a old rocket for approval. Its a little harder to physically inspect a nearly complete project. Maybe a real life TAP could chime in?


this is taken from the Tripoli website.

A member must first document their level 3 project. Then send those documents to 2 of the members of the TAP (Technical Advisory Panel) for their approval. For a list of TAP members click on "TAP MEMBERS."

The TAP members review the project and sign off on the members multi-part certification form IF THEY APPROVE. At least one pre-flight TAP member must physically inspect the project in a nearly complete state before being approved for flight. After 2 members of TAP have signed off on the multi-part certification form, the member can then attempt their level 3 flight. When attempting a level 3 flight, the multi-part form and the documentation submitted to TAP should be made available to the launch RSO. The RSO has final say as to whether the level 3 flight can occur at their launch. The flight must be witnessed by a member of TAP ONLY and only a TAP member can sign off on the flight granting level 3 certification status. It is the MEMBERS responsibility to send the signed multi-part form to headquarter
 
I'm sure there are plenty of TAP's who would let a person use a old rocket but that's not the way it reads to me. I suppose a person could submit there level three document of a old rocket for approval. Its a little harder to physically inspect a nearly complete project. Maybe a real life TAP could chime in?


this is taken from the Tripoli website.

A member must first document their level 3 project. Then send those documents to 2 of the members of the TAP (Technical Advisory Panel) for their approval. For a list of TAP members click on "TAP MEMBERS."

The TAP members review the project and sign off on the members multi-part certification form IF THEY APPROVE. At least one pre-flight TAP member must physically inspect the project in a nearly complete state before being approved for flight. After 2 members of TAP have signed off on the multi-part certification form, the member can then attempt their level 3 flight. When attempting a level 3 flight, the multi-part form and the documentation submitted to TAP should be made available to the launch RSO. The RSO has final say as to whether the level 3 flight can occur at their launch. The flight must be witnessed by a member of TAP ONLY and only a TAP member can sign off on the flight granting level 3 certification status. It is the MEMBERS responsibility to send the signed multi-part form to headquarter

Ummmmm, I don't think it's easily possible for TAPs to be around during the construction in all geographical areas. I've heard of folks sending off paperwork to TAPS, showing up at the launch for inspection and flying. Nothing wrong with that. If the TAP can read the paperwork beforehand, inspect with the flier pointing out the salient features and fly, I don't see a problem. I've heard of nightmares where L3CC's or TAP's wanted to see each construction step in person and with that attitude I'd expect more people would be more inclined to leave the hobby. NAR used to have some really stupid
interlock switch rules but technically have abandoned them thank heavens.

I have two projects I photo documented I'll eventually do a write-up on one of them and see if it will pass muster. One I did a video of motor mounting but the second rocket I didn't. The method is the same technique so even if I didn't video it, the same skills were used. One rocket, I intend to use magnetic switches to turn on the two altimeters, the second one two keyswitches. I think I will choose the conventional keyswitch rocket for the eventual attempt. Kurt
 
I presented my paperwork and write up to my taps before I started. I obtained approval and did a build thread on this forum.

I am sure some taps and builders do it differently, but they do their best. I too have suspicions that some do not build their own rockets. I hesitant to take action with out proof.
 
I guess what's the difference if you pay your dues and never lose your cert but not fly for years? Who can stop you or question you skill level? If your certified and the rocket is worthy to fly its, up up and away no matter how many years you haven't flown a rocket.

You can't tell me that working and getting a level 3 isn't a big deal, just to have to do it all over again because you lapsed more than a year? I don't know many that getting any cert lvl that doesn't stress them out. Lost one guy when he had two level 1 cert failures both CTI motor fails that were not his fault, pissed him off, "to much hassle" he cursed and I haven't seen him since. (This is just an example of the stress only, not about the fact guy wasn't a true rocketeer or he would have stuck with it.) OK off my high jacking and soap box. :2:

I was under the impression you just had to build the rocket, document it, get it approved and/or show your processes for lvl 3 and it wasn't a matter of when you built it? I don't know I guess I need to read up on the NAR rules.


TA
 
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I presented my paperwork and write up to my taps before I started. I obtained approval and did a build thread on this forum.

I am sure some taps and builders do it differently, but they do their best. I too have suspicions that some do not build their own rockets. I hesitant to take action with out proof.

Really? What is the fun in that, that's the only part of the cert that doesn't suck.

TA
 
I was under the impression you just had to build the rocket, document it, get it approved and/or show your processes for lvl 3 and it wasn't a matter of when you built it? I don't know I guess I need to read up on the NAR rules.TA


NAR's a little different than Tripoli in that its more spelled out that you can't start building your level 3 rocket until its been approved and you cant submit your level three plans until your level 2 certified.
 
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I take my sons Boy Scout Troop out once a year to "Dairy Aire" Its one of our clubs biggest launches of the year and the boys all have a great time. In the last 4 years only one Scout has shown any interest in continued involvement in rocketry. The rest are happy for now just being part of a once a year outing. Most Patents don't go on the scout outings and unless there parents get the rocket bug the Scouts are a once a year group because they cant drive themselves

P1040506.jpg
 
Is High Power in decline? Hard to tell... over the years, the hobby has eat up mfg's and spits them out. Ask anyone who has tried to start up a small business on the side to support the hobby they love. Most will close doors after a couple years and are never heard from again. Honestly, once the numbers were posted, I did not realize that the rocketry community was so small... I mean, I knew we were not NRA big, but I assumed there were more than what was posted. I believe it is still a cost to fun ratio; I know of one individual who got me interested in high power and research, and he left to pursue RC planes... his reasoning was he was having more fun slope and sailplane soaring and flying RC wings... most of the outfits he builds cost less than the price of an M-class reload, and he can fly for years... YEARS, barring any crashes, on any one of those vehicles... His reasoning for leaving was that he reached a point that the cost / fun ratio was that he was not enjoying the hobby any more... secondly, his money was best spent elsewhere. I tried to follow him into the RC world, but grew bored of crashing, so returned to rocketry... lord I have left the hobby so many times that it is becoming a seasonal turn for me. Hopefully I will find something that sticks.

Is it on the rise? The two local clubs have so many new fliers that I am lost around the clubs anymore... there are still a number of die-hard veterans, but the clubs have turned membership at least once in the last 4+ years. I find it kind of interesting that some of the seasonal vets supplement their high power fun with doing pyrotechnic shows during the July 4th and Dec 31/Jan1 holidays... I got to help out one of those times; I was on a four man crew that ignited 6" shells... professional grade fireworks look so different when you are under them when they go off and rain debris all over your face...

Maybe the hobby is waiting for the "next big thing" to hit the market... when I first returned to the hobby in 1997 HyperTEK was hitting the scene pretty hard, and hybrid propulsion bloomed with a number of different motors coming to market. Hybrids are all but gone now, and everyone is back to flying APCP whose prices continue to sky-rocket (pun intended). Like "Cheap Access to Space (CATS), many of us are looking for "Cheap Access to High Power (CAHP... acronym does not work)...
 
I agree with the manufacturer. My favorites are all gone. Baddazz is just the latest that will be missed.
 
Just because you take a break for a few years DOES mean that you will have forgotten some of the details. The devil is in the details: how exactly you prep the electronics, how to fold the parachutes, remembering to put in shear pins, etc.

Now I don't think that you necessarily need to create a new rocket for your certifications, but I do think that you ought to have supervision equivalent to certifying the first time. And that's not going to add any cost, just inconvenience, and I think that's justified for the safety.

I have been going back and forth on this since I started the thread. Part of me thinks that it isn't a big deal to re-cert. and it really won't take much time to do it. The other part of me says that there isn't a difference really between someone who certs. and never flies again at the level but continues to pay and the guy who lapses for more than a year but gets back into it. Should he really have to do L1 again if he just wants to go right into L2?

You could say, "Just launch your L1 again" but what if he doesn't have it? That's a whole other rocket he has to build.

I honestly don't know what is best. I can see both sides.
 
Is High Power in decline? Hard to tell... over the years, the hobby has eat up mfg's and spits them out. Ask anyone who has tried to start up a small business on the side to support the hobby they love. Most will close doors after a couple years and are never heard from again. Honestly, once the numbers were posted, I did not realize that the rocketry community was so small... I mean, I knew we were not NRA big, but I assumed there were more than what was posted. I believe it is still a cost to fun ratio; I know of one individual who got me interested in high power and research, and he left to pursue RC planes... his reasoning was he was having more fun slope and sailplane soaring and flying RC wings... most of the outfits he builds cost less than the price of an M-class reload, and he can fly for years... YEARS, barring any crashes, on any one of those vehicles... His reasoning for leaving was that he reached a point that the cost / fun ratio was that he was not enjoying the hobby any more... secondly, his money was best spent elsewhere. I tried to follow him into the RC world, but grew bored of crashing, so returned to rocketry... lord I have left the hobby so many times that it is becoming a seasonal turn for me. Hopefully I will find something that sticks.

Is it on the rise? The two local clubs have so many new fliers that I am lost around the clubs anymore... there are still a number of die-hard veterans, but the clubs have turned membership at least once in the last 4+ years. I find it kind of interesting that some of the seasonal vets supplement their high power fun with doing pyrotechnic shows during the July 4th and Dec 31/Jan1 holidays... I got to help out one of those times; I was on a four man crew that ignited 6" shells... professional grade fireworks look so different when you are under them when they go off and rain debris all over your face...

Maybe the hobby is waiting for the "next big thing" to hit the market... when I first returned to the hobby in 1997 HyperTEK was hitting the scene pretty hard, and hybrid propulsion bloomed with a number of different motors coming to market. Hybrids are all but gone now, and everyone is back to flying APCP whose prices continue to sky-rocket (pun intended). Like "Cheap Access to Space (CATS), many of us are looking for "Cheap Access to High Power (CAHP... acronym does not work)...

I have been there several times as well. I love space and I love rocketry. The cost sometimes gets to me a little. Then I remember that I don't really fly that many times during a year and so the cost really evens out. I have a few R/C helis and I like to fly them but I don't all that often. The kids enjoy them more than I do. I suppose if I had a big Collective Pitch one it would be more fun and challenging but they are expensive for a nice one and if you crash, oh goodness.
 
You could say, "Just launch your L1 again" but what if he doesn't have it? That's a whole other rocket he has to build.

I honestly don't know what is best. I can see both sides.

Level 1 and 2 would be fairly easy to do in a day or weekendand, You are allowed to use any rocket youve already built thats able to do the flight. Level 3 is what would be more time and money to redo. But its a good excuse to build another rocket
 
One thing that effects the nationals a LOT, is the state that the locals are in. I will give you my personal example.

I got into LPR when I bought my son a launch kit and then bought an Estes Swift for myself to launch with him 2 yrs ago this fall. My son did not get bit by the rocketry bug, but I did. I then joined the local NAR in January and within a couple months, joined NAR so I could get HPR certified, even though I had yet to go to a single club launch. That summer I got L1. That fall ended with legal issues about the use of my NAR clubs launch site. That winter I built my L2. I specifically built it with the 4,500' waiver in mind. As spring came this year, our legal issues did not get resolved, so I went to the TRA local and launched with them all summer long. I also noticed othe members of my NAR local had joined or were paying a day fee at the TRA club. At this point, I considered changing my national membership to TRA, but decided to stay NAR primarily because I mentor with TARC.

If I wasn't involved in TARC, I would probably have left NAR and joined TRA. The local conditions also effect the nationals.

Note: The local TRA was very welcoming of us NAR guys/girls. In fact, they let my TARC team come and set up a booth to clean motor cases for donations to our club. The kids would also launch there TARC rockets there as well. We were very welcomed. And the kids (from an inner city school) loved getting out of the city and seeing the BIG rockets fly. We can't afford the big stuff, but we can watch them fly, and then offer to clean the big motor cases for a nice donation.
 
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