New fiberglass for Wildman's

Sometimes, supplier changes aren't for reasons of price or profit margin.

To help ease the sticker shock, have the newbs consider that one fiberglass kit will last for a few months of building and years and years of flying. I still have my first one. Amortized over 10 years and 14 flights (not to mention the 3 Ks, 5 Ls, and 6 M motors that have been through it so far), a $290 Wildman Competitor 4 is a pretty good deal.

If it's still too spendy, turn them towards cardboard or phenolic kits, and have them learn the ways of laminating if they're getting too beat up. Paper-based kits work just fine, too, at least for setting the hook And 10 years ago, it's how everyone started. Recall what a Dynacom Scorpion used to cost and compare that with the current price of a Wildman Extreme or a Madcow Frenzy XL. We're living in a time of cheap glass!

Regardless, congrats to Wildman on finding another person who can do the small volume stuff for us at a good price. That's a tremendous feat!

Some things to consider....

Providing numerous colors is really hard on everyone involved. Remember, we're talking low-volume products (pretty much everything in this hobby is low-volume). Multiple colors drives up manufacturing costs (they have to swap at least some of the materials out) as well as inventory costs (more colors on hand). That all means that the products cost you, the consumer, more.

There's not much profit in hobby rocketry. The market is very small and the inventory costs are high, due to the variety of products. If there was a lot of profit in it, trust me, you'd see more people doing it and larger businesses doing it.

The startup cost for filament wound manufacturing isn't cheap. You not only need the filament winder, but also floor space to operate it, mandrels, materials, the equipment to grind the finished product... Once again, if there was a lot of money to be made in it, you can bet there's be numerous companies making the tubes for our hobby.

Finally, constant sales are hard on an already slim profit margin. I have to imagine the weekly sales are brutalizing the profits of RW and/or PR. I can't imagine it can be sustained for long.

-Kevin

troj said:

Providing numerous colors is really hard on everyone involved. Remember, we're talking low-volume products (pretty much everything in this hobby is low-volume). Multiple colors drives up manufacturing costs (they have to swap at least some of the materials out) as well as inventory costs (more colors on hand). That all means that the products cost you, the consumer, more.

Click to expand...

Vendors are not listening, it had been said numerous times--no color, natural green fiberglass is best. How is that a cost adder?

dixontj93060 said:

Vendors are not listening, it had been said numerous times--no color, natural green fiberglass is best. How is that a cost adder?

Click to expand...

+1

I just don't see the reason for black fiberglass. It doesn't look like carbon, so it doesn't have the cachet (and I'm long since over it anyway). It is less versatile and provides no performance advantage.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

dixontj93060 said:

Vendors are not listening, it had been said numerous times--no color, natural green fiberglass is best. How is that a cost adder?

Click to expand...

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!!

HO....HO....ho......GREEN giant! +50


Guess we can always start using bamboo, at least it's green.

The newer thin wall FG tube is wonderful. Tim - will there be more of it in larger sizes? I like to build larger rockets, and the weight of FG tube is a problem. The rockets do not need to be strong enough to deliver a nuclear payload, or survive the blast. I do, on the other hand, need to be able to carry them to the pad, and back from the field after recovery (often alone). For larger rockets (5.5" +) I tend to prefer using glassing flexible phenolic tube & using birch plywood - party for cost, but the final product is a bunch lighter. Thin wall tubing could change that. Of course nosecone OD would need to shrink as well, as the tube is thinner.

One of my favorite tubes came in a project pack from Hawk Mountain many years ago. It was not filament wound, but convolute wound cloth in a natural bright green color and was thin wall. It was a non-standard diameter though.

Just checked their site, they are using it for a kit called the Vulcan. Great tubing!

On the other hand, some of us like the colored FG because it saves us time. Rocketry Warehouse has made a business out of selling rockets with that stuff, I have a few of their rockets and its really nice not to have to mess with paint.

dixontj93060 said:

Vendors are not listening, it had been said numerous times--no color, natural green fiberglass is best. How is that a cost adder?

Click to expand...

cerving said:

On the other hand, some of us like the colored FG because it saves us time. Rocketry Warehouse has made a business out of selling rockets with that stuff, I have a few of their rockets and its really nice not to have to mess with paint.

Click to expand...

Yes, they have made a business out of offering a choice.

I would rather have black. All the rockets I would build are too big to fly at night.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

Black here. It looks fantastic when clearcoated, and you can always paint over it. Green is really only useful for night launches and we don't have those here.

I'm sure Tim is getting a kick out of this thread (or he might be grinding his teeth!)

A couple of points:

First, I think it's great that Wildman is doing cool new things with their tube offerings (kits and components) - thinwall, YES!!!, better quality delivered product - YES, more/interesting nose cone options coming, YES. etc.
Thank you Tim!

Second, I do fully realize that offering multiple color choices (even if it's only two) is VERY hard to do, and costly, for a small vendor. Kudos to those that make the extra effort.

Third, night rockets are definitely not the only reason some of us prefer "natural/green". In fact, I'd venture to say it's a small factor (but still important to some). The main thing - for me at least - is that the translucent material is much better to build with - marking, seeing what you are doing, alignment of parts/holes/etc., seeing how well epoxy is spread inside a tube, etc., etc. And I can always paint it black (or whatever color) if I want to. It's simply more versatile than a single solid color.

Fourth, I DO still like black fiberglass! It's pretty cool. I'd love it to still be offered as a choice, or as a special edition or somesuch. But if there's only choice - I'd absolutely prefer it to be natural/green.

s6

Zeroignite said:

Black here. It looks fantastic when clearcoated, and you can always paint over it. Green is really only useful for night launches and we don't have those here.

Click to expand...

Not true. Natural green is a builder's choice. You can see through the tube to verify epoxy coverage and positioning of all components. And those confident in their finishing skills don't need the crutch of colored FG.

Those that are confident in their building skills don't need the crutch of see through tubing.

Titan II said:

Those that are confident in their building skills don't need the crutch of see through tubing.

Click to expand...

Those that are so confident in their building skills that they don't feel the need to double check things are being overconfident and careless.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

I agree with those voting for a return to the Natural Green tubing. On a rocket like an Eagle Claw or Talon doing injected internal fillets is taking a lot on faith with opaque tubing. I am confident in my building, doesn't mean I don't like to verify something as important as fin attachment. I paint everything, if colored tubing costs extra I would rather have a lower priced kit.

The windings of the black fiberglass create a neat appearance that isn't emulable with paint. I am not terrible at painting but I think black FG looks good in its own right. And yes, I do check component positions as I assemble.

In any case, thinner FG is absolutely excellent, especially combined with lighter nosecones!

Titan II said:

Those that are confident in their building skills don't need the crutch of see through tubing.

Click to expand...

You don't get it. You would need supernatural powers to validate injected epoxy flows with complete coverage if the tube is opaque.

I just did the injected fillets on my first black fiberglass. I know from experience with green that the Aeropoxy will flow. I've never mixed chopped fiber into the Aeropoxy, so I'm just having to hope that it flows. There's no way to see it. But I still like the black.

Joe


Sent from my iPad using Rocketry Forum

stealth6 said:

... night rockets are definitely not the only reason some of us prefer "natural/green". In fact, I'd venture to say it's a small factor (but still important to some). The main thing - for me at least - is that the translucent material is much better to build with - marking, seeing what you are doing, alignment of parts/holes/etc., seeing how well epoxy is spread inside a tube, etc., etc. And I can always paint it black (or whatever color) if I want to. It's simply more versatile than a single solid color. s6

Click to expand...

Glad to see I'm not the only holdout for natural glass. Translucent has many advantages for over opaque. Always nice to be able to see inside/through the tube. Including post-flight "bore-scoping" on rare occasions. :wink:

stealth6 said:

... if there's only choice - I'd absolutely prefer it to be natural/green.

Click to expand...

+1

Is this thread heading I the wrong direction?

Do people really believe that vendors only sell kits when there is a sale??

I have seen people (happily) purchasing kits at launches....and I have never been to a launch on a Wednesday or a Saturday in November.

The point of this thread is to let us know we will now have another choice.

Isnt that what everybody wants in the end???

As fun as this all is to read, come on guys, don't turn it into a negative..........


p.s. I am in camp green tube! (Sale or no sale.....I buy rockets)

As far as color goes, I'm the guy who looks at it and says "It's a gimmick". I prefer green, because it's easier for me to make sure I'm putting the drill in the right spot when trying to hit a centering ring.

Beyond that, meh. That's what paint is for, and your fiberglass will love you for paint -- unpainted fiberglass degrades while sitting in the sun (UV is brutal on it).

-Kevin

GRIFFIN said:

Is this thread heading I the wrong direction?

Do people really believe that vendors only sell kits when there is a sale??

I have seen people (happily) purchasing kits at launches....and I have never been to a launch on a Wednesday or a Saturday in November.

The point of this thread is to let us know we will now have another choice.

Isnt that what everybody wants in the end???

As fun as this all is to read, come on guys, don't turn it into a negative..........


p.s. I am in camp green tube! (Sale or no sale.....I buy rockets)

Click to expand...

Wait... There's sales on rocket kits? Whoa... I probably could've saved some money, huh. Oh well... $10 says my Sport will beat yours to the RSO table at MWP and I'll be heading home with a 4" Wildman. Black tubing of course. Cause that's what he carries.

GRIFFIN said:

Do people really believe that vendors only sell kits when there is a sale??


As fun as this all is to read, come on guys, don't turn it into a negative..........


p.s. I am in camp green tube! (Sale or no sale.....I buy rockets)

Click to expand...

With kits going on sale for half or less retail.... It kind of shows the margin is more than "slim" And I think thats a good thing. I want vendors making money so they make more kits and we have a healthy amount of vendors. Just don't try to tell me these guys are squeezing out pennies. I know Apple and Harley have HUGE margins. I still happily buy them.

And With the number of sales always going on....I wait for the sales. I'd likely buy more off sale if the price wasn't typically 30 -50% more.

More choices are a good thing.

The "margin" that a vendor or manufacturer has is not simply the difference between the price and cost of materials of a kit. When you add up all your costs including packaging, insurance, scrap and rework, inventory holding costs, utilities, tools, maintance etc, add those to you materials cost and divide by the number of units sold you get your true 'cost'. I will almost guarantee that those sales prices are below the true costs of those vendor's items.

Let's turn the direction here.

Are the new cones going to be FWFG or the new polycarbonate ones?

DizWolf said:

Let's turn the direction here.

Are the new cones going to be FWFG or the new polycarbonate ones?

Click to expand...

I hear there are more of the Poly ones on the horizon as well as FWFG.

Alright..I am on the fence.

I like the mean black 'no paint' rockets Ive built recently like the 5 inch Jart, Dark Star 3, and my L3 UDS that is shoukd be building. They look and feel hard core even if flying more mild man on a K360.

I like night launch and my NiteFyr LEDs shine through..no glueing or soldering required if in a payload..if natural fiberglass.

There is also something to be said for the flying the natural rocket and letting it earn its paint. It is a talking point when on the pad waiting for during descent..'What colors do you like? Have you thought about this..?' Or my favorite..totally committed ready to order decals and you see sonething at launch thay makes you want to do it differently. Those nekkid flights are a crucible.

My buddy CaveDuck bought a WM lite that is equivalent to the Sport line. It is natural ..he bought it because it looked cool and he can fly it on hobbyline motors. And he likes natural..he has bought almost all madcow kits until recently.

Keep the std tubing for the entire Wildman Signature line black..its kick *ss and means business. On the new thin wall tubing keep it natural..starting with 29mm and take it all the way up to 98mm do the couplers in thin wall too and encourage component and scratch building. ..kinda like the WM has brought it ..what are you going to do with it? Bet we see night launch birds, futuristic, complex and scale/upscale ...could be a huge thread like what did you do rocket wise today.

And with a thin walled natural..you have a clear tell which it is ..the helping hands will be less app to misship mispack .. and hard to misbin.

Kenny

KenRico said:

I like the mean black 'no paint' rockets Ive built recently like the 5 inch Jart, Dark Star 3, and my L3 UDS that is shoukd be building. They look and feel hard core even if flying more mild man on a K360.

Click to expand...

I agree. To my eye, this look is hard to beat. Nice, easy, clean look and if you get bored of it, it's easy enough to paint it later. As for building, I tacked in with 4500, and then injected aeropoxy which flows great. Even if it's not 100% edge to edge coverage, nothing is blowing these fins off.