city parks admin ban model rocketry, open to establishing guidelines,

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bkcoph1

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The City of North Little Rock, Arkansas, Parks and Recreation director has banned model rocketry from city parks. He is open to meet to discuss guidelines to model rocketry. I have the NAR safety code and the Tripoli Safety codes.

Has anyone worked with local US municipalities in establishing guidelines for model rocketry?

Arkansas does not have a NAR group or a Tripoli group. It was learned that most people from Central Arkansas use either the Tulsa or Memphis groups for model rocketry, but, that seems unreasonable.

Thank you,

new to TRF, posted this in beginning and education, not sure where to post this call for help.
 
Be very respectful. Come prepared to talk only model rockets. Have the NAR safety code in multiple copies. Be very prepared to the point of being able to quote rules. Think ahead of how you would like to present it, and spend some ten thinking about what they might ask. Being prepared is good.

I do not think High Power is likely in most city parks I have seen. Not saying I couldn't be wrong, but to have the needed space takes a larger area.


Mark Koelsch
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Did they give any reasons for the ban? or more specifically, what are their concerns?
 
Presuming you are a NAR member, show up with your insurance information. NAR Just sent out their guidebook, which I believe has details about the policy, which are also available from the NAR website. If you aren't a NAR member, join before your meeting to be able to demonstrate the insurance. Just having it shows you are taking the hobby and safety concerns / liability seriously.
 
Primarily the reason for posting this is, as a person that has only been involved in model rocketry for two years, and only as building and shooting rockets on an individual basis at the local park, with no exposure to group rocketry.... I am the voice that Model Rocketry wants to represent it's interests..... YIKES!
 
I have dealt with the same problem here. Rockets were completely banned in our County. The biggest problem was education. People did not know about rocketry, the safety measures taken, and how we mitigate the risks involved. As it turns out, rockets had just gotten grouped in with firework rockets. The fire chief was actually very open and interested in rocketry, and glad that someone could educate him on rocketry. We are now pretty welcome.

Go in there with a very positive attitude, and introduce them to rocketry. Tell them about the educational aspects, and let them know how we reduce risk. I think most people, once they are informed on rocketry, actually find it very interesting and are open to it. The problem is that people are not educated about rocketry, so all they see is flaming missiles flying into the air without any control.
 
The City Parks office has forwarded for discussion:

Model Rocketry in North Little Rock City Parks

Individual Permits may be issued to individuals (age 18+) who must be a member in good standing and registered with National Association of Rocketry. Permit Applicant will be required to show proof of registration when submitting for permit. Permit will be valid for the applicant and their immediate family members and ability to launch up to ___ number of rockets.

Group Permits may be issued to a group organizer (age 25+) who must be a member in good standing and registered with National Association of Rocketry. Applicant will be required to show proof of registration when submitting for permit and may require submission of a Special Event Application. Permit valid for up to 10 group members and ability to launch up to ___ number of rockets. Group organizer will be the primary responsible party.

According to nar.org there are no registered clubs within the state of Arkansas.

No launches with wind speeds over 15 mph.

Vertical visibility shall be at least 2,000 feet at the launch site.

Horizontal launching angle shall not be less than 60°.

Rocket must be retrieved/recovered within 2 hours of each launch. If rocket is unable to be recovered, notice must be given to the DEPARTMENT.

Two Launch Sites will be available for use by permit only and will allow for a 500’ diameter area with the center being…
1. Burns Park - Soccer Complex - North Site (Fields 15B and 16 and 17) - launch pad area located on southern end of concrete Cricket pitch
2. Burns Park - Soccer Complex - South Site (Fields 15A and 13 and 14) - launch pad area located in middle of concrete Cricket pitch

Permits will be issued by the Parks and Recreation Department on behalf of the North Little Rock Fire Department.

Launching of model rockets in Burns Park is a privilege not a right.

Launch sites are located within the Burns Park Soccer Complex. The primary use of the Burns Park Soccer Complex is soccer. If a permit is issued for a launch and then the soccer fields need to be reserved for soccer, then the launch permit will be revoked. In other words, soccer takes priority on these fields.

Launch Permits will be issued for specific daylight times and dates that are not in conflict with pre-scheduled activities.

Model Rockets will be limited to “B” or “C” size engines and smaller.

Permit holder must provide a 2A 10BC rated fire extinguisher for each launch site used.

Launch site and conditions must adhere to the National Fire Protection Association Standard #1122 “Code for Model Rocketry”.

Permit holder will be held responsible for any expense (repairs, clean-up, losses, rocket retrieval, etc.) incurred by the DEPARTMENT associated with the launch of the rocket(s).

Permit holder must supply a pad or blast deflector under the rocket to prevent damage to the area beneath the launch pad.

The DEPARTMENT may close the launch site areas without prior notice due to field conditions, maintenance needs, burn bans, or other reason. Permit holder should check the status of the field prior to use by calling 501-791-8656 (weather rainout number).

A fee will be collected for each permit in the amount $____. A damage/security/cleanup deposit in the amount of $____ will be collected for each permit and may be reused for subsequent permits if deposit could be returned to permit holder.

Launching rockets without a permit or with a permit, but at day/time/location not listed on the permit may be issued a citation under NLR Code Chapter 10 Section 4.1.4 (Unlawful use of Restricted Facilities) or NLR Code Chapter 10 Section 4.1.2 (Unlawful Entry or Presence in City Parks) or NLR Code Chapter 10 Section 3.1.3 (Facilities Reserved by Purpose).

Permit Holder will be responsible for ensuring the safety and controlling access (marking boundaries, barriers, signage, etc.) to the Launch Site.

Permit Holder understands that land to the west of each launch site is private property.
 
I have requested that the limitation not be on motor sizes. As I shoot E, F and G. A for fee aspect scares me. Again, a concern is liability and assurance (Ins.) and a COI.
 
I'd go for at least D's....preferably G's. go for the 3.3 pound 4.4 oz limits

Also get TRA included as an option.
 
First: No NAR sections in Arkansas? Start one! :)

not less than 60° off horizontal should really be defined as not more than 30° off vertical (its the same thing, really - but should be clear you are launching up not out, and should also be consistent with NAR safety code phrasing, I think.)

As to motor size limits - double-check the size of the field and compare it to the NAR safety code launch site dimensions. You may still get push back, as they seem to be proposing a 500' diameter area launch site only. (Ask about D Motors.)

I kind of get the "must be a NAR member in good standing" for a group permit, but why that restriction for individual permits? especially if you are also being limited to "C" motors.

and last: No NAR sections in Arkansas? Start one! :)
 
The City Parks office has forwarded for discussion:

Model Rocketry in North Little Rock City Parks

Individual Permits may be issued to individuals (age 18+) who must be a member in good standing and registered with National Association of Rocketry. Permit Applicant will be required to show proof of registration when submitting for permit. Permit will be valid for the applicant and their immediate family members and ability to launch up to ___ number of rockets.

Group Permits may be issued to a group organizer (age 25+) who must be a member in good standing and registered with National Association of Rocketry. Applicant will be required to show proof of registration when submitting for permit and may require submission of a Special Event Application. Permit valid for up to 10 group members and ability to launch up to ___ number of rockets. Group organizer will be the primary responsible party.

According to nar.org there are no registered clubs within the state of Arkansas.

No launches with wind speeds over 15 mph.

Vertical visibility shall be at least 2,000 feet at the launch site.

Horizontal launching angle shall not be less than 60°.

Rocket must be retrieved/recovered within 2 hours of each launch. If rocket is unable to be recovered, notice must be given to the DEPARTMENT.

Two Launch Sites will be available for use by permit only and will allow for a 500’ diameter area with the center being…
1. Burns Park - Soccer Complex - North Site (Fields 15B and 16 and 17) - launch pad area located on southern end of concrete Cricket pitch
2. Burns Park - Soccer Complex - South Site (Fields 15A and 13 and 14) - launch pad area located in middle of concrete Cricket pitch

Permits will be issued by the Parks and Recreation Department on behalf of the North Little Rock Fire Department.

Launching of model rockets in Burns Park is a privilege not a right.

Launch sites are located within the Burns Park Soccer Complex. The primary use of the Burns Park Soccer Complex is soccer. If a permit is issued for a launch and then the soccer fields need to be reserved for soccer, then the launch permit will be revoked. In other words, soccer takes priority on these fields.

Launch Permits will be issued for specific daylight times and dates that are not in conflict with pre-scheduled activities.

Model Rockets will be limited to “B” or “C” size engines and smaller.

Permit holder must provide a 2A 10BC rated fire extinguisher for each launch site used.

Launch site and conditions must adhere to the National Fire Protection Association Standard #1122 “Code for Model Rocketry”.

Permit holder will be held responsible for any expense (repairs, clean-up, losses, rocket retrieval, etc.) incurred by the DEPARTMENT associated with the launch of the rocket(s).

Permit holder must supply a pad or blast deflector under the rocket to prevent damage to the area beneath the launch pad.

The DEPARTMENT may close the launch site areas without prior notice due to field conditions, maintenance needs, burn bans, or other reason. Permit holder should check the status of the field prior to use by calling 501-791-8656 (weather rainout number).

A fee will be collected for each permit in the amount $____. A damage/security/cleanup deposit in the amount of $____ will be collected for each permit and may be reused for subsequent permits if deposit could be returned to permit holder.

Launching rockets without a permit or with a permit, but at day/time/location not listed on the permit may be issued a citation under NLR Code Chapter 10 Section 4.1.4 (Unlawful use of Restricted Facilities) or NLR Code Chapter 10 Section 4.1.2 (Unlawful Entry or Presence in City Parks) or NLR Code Chapter 10 Section 3.1.3 (Facilities Reserved by Purpose).

Permit Holder will be responsible for ensuring the safety and controlling access (marking boundaries, barriers, signage, etc.) to the Launch Site.

Permit Holder understands that land to the west of each launch site is private property.

WOW! What you initially described (or at least how I read it) as a meet and greet sure looks different with that set proposals. I may come around to your "exclude rockets from parks" conspiracy theory. Lots to think about here; was the meeting cordial ? I hope there are some open minds over there.

Let's start with the launch "taxes":
- a permit fee (one time ? per event ? annual ?)
- a security deposit (refundable ?)
- mandatory NAR membership (This one really bothers me. Now I'm a proud NAR member, BY CHOICE. Somebody tells me I gotta join, then I'm looking for John Hancock and the Sons of Liberty and some tea shipments).

Hopefully these are negotiable points, I would think that the permit could include language including the NAR safety code and/or NFPA 1122 and the permit holder assumes all responsibility/liability/etc blah blah blah and this would make redundant some of the other proposals (launch angle, deflector, wind speed).

The impulse limits are a little trickier. I believe it can take a few dozen launches with a variety of models to get the "lay" of the field, so to speak. I'd be more willing to start slow here until everyone is comfortable with the process before I set off a White Lightning.

Well just my two cents, I wish you luck and hope the process goes to something you can live with.
 
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Jees, it sounds like this permit form has been written up by a bunch of liability lawyers. Sounds like they want to nail down exactly what will be launched, how, when, by whom and who is liable.

What do you think about drafting your own permit that is more user friendly, and a little more lax... like expanding the size motors, and rewriting that 30 degrees off vertical and such?

Do you think they had a bad experience once, or that something got out of control? Or that the 'national association of fire chiefs' recommended that policies be enacted restricting this hobby before anything got established?
Or are they just running scared after seeing the "Rocket Boys" in "October Sky"?
 
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The Park is a mixed use park, and we are attempting to tie up the soccer pitch at times when no one or in minimal use (opposite ends) The pitch itself is 1650ft long by 650ft wide. They are getting comfortable with the motors and the process, but, understandably, wanting everyone, 'arry included wtih Tom and Dick to be good boys and follow the Model Rocketry rules. this was mentioned "what if someone see's you launching a rocket and your following the codes and are within the lines (so to speak) and the other fellow gets it in his head that he wants to be a rocketeer also. He goes to Marks Hobby Shop on Cantrell and buys a kit or goes to Hobby Lobby and buys a kit, spends an evening playing with glue and considers himself a rocket master. This guy is the guy that says "rules? smules! we don't need no stinkin' rules!" sticks a rod in the ground, or an anttena and runs a couple of wires from a 6 volt or from his lawn tractor. sizzle sizzle of the electronic match, and away it goes. ah heck, he forget to put the parachute in it. Did he even look around when he pulled up and set up? did he observe the wind direction or wind speed? NOPE. He shop it up and its coming down. Lets hope he did remember to glue the shock cord to the tube and tie the other end to the nose cone...... Maybe......

Thats the guy that the parks people are afraid of. My homeowners policy covers my model rocketry, so my proof of insurance is easy.

We'll see how it comes out. They may not be so afraid of the hazards of model rocketry now.

Thanks all.
 
the width of the field is the limiting factor, the code calls for a minimum of 1000' for Es. the NAR member Guidebook has (among other things) two articles 1 covering NAR insurance the other safety. since a lot of parents (1st time buyers) tend to go for 13mm birds the engine/motor limits are reasonable(imo). a lot of the municipalities started restricting activities in the early '80s when the cost of liability insurance went through the roof. note, when 2 or more NAR members gather, you have the makings of a section :).
Rex
 
Considering the size of the field, and the launch size tables I think the best thing you can do is maybe a D motor there. I would not aim for more.

Frankly, sounds like a pain. I would see if you can find an existent NAR section or TRA Prefecture and fly with them. Will make your life easier.


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The City of North Little Rock, Arkansas, Parks and Recreation director has banned model rocketry from city parks.
Not uncommon. Our city doesn't allow anything to fly through the air in parks other than baseballs, basketballs, tennis balls, and footballs in designated areas. It's probably insurance related.
 
The Park is a mixed use park, and we are attempting to tie up the soccer pitch at times when no one or in minimal use (opposite ends) The pitch itself is 1650ft long by 650ft wide. They are getting comfortable with the motors and the process, but, understandably, wanting everyone, 'arry included wtih Tom and Dick to be good boys and follow the Model Rocketry rules. this was mentioned "what if someone see's you launching a rocket and your following the codes and are within the lines (so to speak) and the other fellow gets it in his head that he wants to be a rocketeer also. He goes to Marks Hobby Shop on Cantrell and buys a kit or goes to Hobby Lobby and buys a kit, spends an evening playing with glue and considers himself a rocket master. This guy is the guy that says "rules? smules! we don't need no stinkin' rules!" sticks a rod in the ground, or an anttena and runs a couple of wires from a 6 volt or from his lawn tractor. sizzle sizzle of the electronic match, and away it goes. ah heck, he forget to put the parachute in it. Did he even look around when he pulled up and set up? did he observe the wind direction or wind speed? NOPE. He shop it up and its coming down. Lets hope he did remember to glue the shock cord to the tube and tie the other end to the nose cone...... Maybe......

Thats the guy that the parks people are afraid of. My homeowners policy covers my model rocketry, so my proof of insurance is easy.

We'll see how it comes out. They may not be so afraid of the hazards of model rocketry now.

Thanks all.

Just wanted to make sure that you were aware that there are no application fees or annual charges for NAR Sections. As a NAR Section you could provide the parks department a NAR insurance certificate with $2M in coverage, and apply for a $250 NAR Section Grant that the Section can use to purchase safety equipment and or launch equipment.

John
 
I live in Little Rock. Just getting started in this but I think central Arkansas needs a club. I am willing to help

Clay
 
I think you might need some clarification on a few things like marking boundaries and signage. They may be harmless little phrases, but it might also be a "gotcha" for someone who wants to get rid of you. You should petition for a change to add, "as appropriate to reasonably ensure safety of other persons present." Otherwise, you're potentially setting up flags, caution tape and (who knows how many) signs each and every time you want to launch anything.
 
You gotta love government bureaucracy. Some of those rules are absolutely absurd. Guarantee the city lawyer wrote that up. Just take time to educate them on the realities of our hobby and hopefully you can get them to change some of that stuff in there.
 
Soccer Rocket field.jpg

the location in question.

Large open fields to the west, private property that is also allowed use for trails, so it's open, so to speak,
 
That may be so, but, I am sure there is a "Directors Discretion" that was used. It's looking like we will be able to do some sort of Rocketry. They are more comfortable after our discussion, but, they want to insure that launch safety will be complied with, as are most people in rockerty, I am sure......
 
My son is a local boy scout who wants to work on his space exploration merit badge. In addition to having trouble finding a merit badge counselor, the NLR rules are a challenge because launching rockets is a requirement. I'd appreciate any advice from those of you in the area since I know very little about this. He has become interested in it after seeing some model rocket launches at camp and then taking up Kerbal Space Program as one of his go to video games. He's presently trying to assemble his first model rocket.

Thanks.
 
Where are you located?

What does "NLR" stand for?


My son is a local boy scout who wants to work on his space exploration merit badge. In addition to having trouble finding a merit badge counselor, the NLR rules are a challenge because launching rockets is a requirement. I'd appreciate any advice from those of you in the area since I know very little about this. He has become interested in it after seeing some model rocket launches at camp and then taking up Kerbal Space Program as one of his go to video games. He's presently trying to assemble his first model rocket.

Thanks.
 
the NLR rules are a challenge because launching rockets is a requirement.
While it would be a shame, the merit badge requirements can be met by building a non-flying rocket. "If local laws prohibit the launching of model rockets, do the following activity: Make a model of a NASA rocket. Explain the functions of the parts. Give the history of the rocket."

Water rockets might also meet the requirement, though that would take some effort because the rules are clearly oriented towards conventional rockets.
 
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